There seems to be some real confusion on this sight about what it takes to be saved. While it is fairly simple, I thought it might be worthwhile going over it again.
As you start to believe (it is not something that happens instantly for everyone), you will start to have this strong love in your heart for our Father and Jesus Christ whom He sent. You will make your public confession of faith to anyone who will listen to you. You will be on fire for the Lord. You will talk about Him to friends and family until they hate to see you coming. LOL.
You will work. You will do anything you can to further the Kingdom. You will notice that your language clears up. You start trying to do the right thing all the time, even when it isn't convenient.
Now, you are not working for your salvation, but because you are saved. Salvation is all of God and NONE of us. Once you have reached this point, nothing can take your salvation, no, not even your own sin. By this time you are indwelt with the Holy Spirit and He will remind you to repent.
NO !!! PJ ~ This is a Datein site an WE are in a Biblical Forum on a Thread...
How do ya expect ta meet people an get ta know them with out exchangein ideas an learnin ? I learn alot from others...its called Fellowship...the Body of Christ...
My perception of the recent events on this Dang Grid Thingy here is...
Ya Ima gone shoot straight from the Hip...
You jus LOVE DRAMA...Ya know...until a person finds Serenity amongst the Storms of Life as Jesus did sleepin in the boat with the Storm ragein round him an his apostles...Ya will never learn ta walk in Peace...an incase We all fergot...Ya cant an wont have Unconditional Love for Another or Your Self until ya find that Peace in the LORD Jesus...xo
P.S> thank you Leon an all our Brothers an Sisters for sharein your views, opinions, perspectives, insights, learnins, time, energy an most Importantly...your Love for GOD. You have all helped a lil back woods gal like me ta Love, Love, Love...GOD Bless ya All...an hava Blessed day...xo
PJ, pPLEASE share with us all that you know about Calvin's teachings. The reason i ask is because no matter what is said you say its not according to God's word, and that its according to Calivn's teachings. Sure Calvins misunderstand a lot, but so do we and many other theologians, preachers, teachers, pastors, etc. who got it wrong, and get it wrong.
So PLEASE for the sake of our understanding please tell us what you know and understand Clavin's teacings to mean?
What are Calvin's basic teachings? Accordingto your understanding?
Well, I'm glad a couple of people see my humour! =) :ROFL:
@Steve- Thanks for pointing out the hyper-Calivinism bit. That addresses a question that had been brewing in my mind... And yet raises more... Hmmm...
Since PJ didn't really say what he believes, I will explain Calvinism... perhaps not very well (ya, I'll probably completely botch it), as I am not a Calvinist and have not, in fact, studied Calvinism. But, here's what I've found online, and what, in part, I disagree with... The disagreement is why I'm not a Calivinist and haven't bothered to look any further into Calvinism. I have found it to be much more valuable in the long run to study things for myself rather than continually going after other people's interpretations of things. I RARELY read commentaries of any sort.
Okay, so... Calvinism has this little 5-plank manifesto list thing going on that summarizes the Calvinist beliefs. I understand them to be as follows:
1. Depravity-- People are completely bad (sin nature) and have no natural inclination toward God of their own accord. People are unable to choose God on their own.
2. Election-- God has a list of all those who He likes best. Those who have not made the list are unable to be saved even if they desire to be saved. In other words, God only died for some people, and if you're not one of those lucky elect, then you won't be going to Heaven no matter what you believe.
3. Atonement-- Christ's sacrifice is a substitutionary sacrifice, which means that Christ's death took the place of the elect people's punishment, v. it actually going far beyond what the elect people's punishment would have accomplished. This point also discusses justification-- hopefully correctly. I haven't read that part in awhile and don't remember.
4. Irresistible grace-- This is really just a synthesis of points one and two... God is the one who draws man towards Him and... the elect are saved no matter what because they somehow made it onto God's special list. They can't resist the grace even if the don't believe the Bible or don't like God, because they're on the special list. Okay, I know I seriously twisted that... People who don't like God aren't on the list, I'm sure... But... That IS what it seems to suggest to me... In which case, if people are saved because of a list, v. because of faith/grace, then #3 isn't really necessary here now, is it?
5. Perseverance of believers-- Those who are TRULY saved, will remain saved. They will be kept in the faith and persevere until the end. This is sorta like "once saved always saved," but in a more Biblical sense than how the term is usually understood.
So, there you have it... whether you wanted it or not! :ROFL:
Now it is PJ's turn to explain what he thinks the 5 points of Calvinism are saying!
Salvation is not finally in the hands of man to determine. His choices are crucial, but they are not the final, decisive power in bringing him to glory, God�s sovereign grace is.
1. God elects, chooses, before the foundation of the world whom he will save and whom he will pass by and leave to unbelief and sin and rebellion. He does this unconditionally, not on the basis of foreseen faith that humans produce by a supposed power of ultimate self-determination (= �free will�).
Acts 13:48, �When the gentiles heard this they were glad and glorified the word of God. And as many as were for ordained to eternal life believed.�
Romans 11:7, �Israel failed to obtain what is sought. The elect obtained it, but the rest were hardened.�
John 6:37, �All that the Father gives to me will come to me; and him who comes to me I will not cast out.� John 17:6, �I have manifested my name to them whom thou gavest me out of the world; thine they were, and thou gavest them to me.� (John 6:44, 65).
2. The Atonement applies to the elect in a unique, particular way, although the death of Christ is sufficient to propitiate the sins of the whole world. The death of Christ effectually accomplished the salvation for all God�s people.
Eph. 5:25, �Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her.�
Heb. 10:14, �By a single offering he perfected for all time those who are being sanctified.�
John 10:15, �I lay down my life for the sheep.�
Rom. 8:32, �He who did not spare his own Son but gave him up for us all, how shall he not with him freely give us all things?�
3. Because of the Fall, humans are incapable of any saving good apart from the regenerating work of the Holy Spirit. We are helpless and dead in sin. We have a mindset that �cannot submit to God without divine enabling.
Rom. 8:7-8, �The mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, it does not submit to God�s law; indeed it cannot. But you are not in the flesh; you are in the Spirit if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you.�
Eph. 2:1,5, �You were dead through your trespasses and sins.�
4. God�s call to salvation is effectual, and, hence His grace cannot be ultimately thwarted by human resistance. God�s regenerating call can overcome all human resistance.
Acts 16:14, �The Lord opened her heart to give heed to what was said by Paul.�
John 6:65, �This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted to him by my Father.� (Matt. 16:17; Luke 10:21)
1 Cor. 1:23-24, �We preach Christ crucified, a stumbling block to Jews and folly to gentiles, but to those who are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ, the power of God and the wisdom of God.�
5. Those whom God calls and regenerates He also keeps, so that they do not totally and finally fall away from faith and grace.
Rom. 8:30, �Those whom he predestined, he also called and those whom he called he also justified and those whom he justified he also glorified.�
John 10:27-29, �My sheep hear my voice and I know them and they follow me; and I give them eternal life and they shall never perish, and no one shall snatch them out of my hand.�
Phil. 1:6, �I am sure that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Christ Jesus.� (1 Cor. 1:8).
1 Thess. 5:23, �May the God of peace himself sanctify you wholly, and may your spirit and soul and body be kept sound and blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. He who calls you is faithful and he will do it.�
Conclusion
Romans 11:36, �From him, through him, and to him are all things, to him be glory forever amen!�
In doing a quick read-through of Piper's words and not over-analyzing anything, I don't really disagree with it, I suppose... although it is a bit vague... and I would say that the emphasis is maybe slightly "off." HOWEVER, this is NOT the Calvinism that I see being preached around this board or what I see elsewhere on the web!
My understand of Calvinism (above), while meant to have a sarcastic tone to it, is the impression that I've gotten of Calvinism through bits I've read on the web and through many of the people on this board.
Really, it seems like Piper has taken the unbiblical points of Calvinism and changed them to more closely match Scripture.
And I know I'm going to sound like someone else here when I say this... But seriously, what is wrong with just reading the Bible on your own rather than finding some old, FALLIBLE dead person's writings to read instead? God will give us the wisdom to understand and discern His Word if we ask Him. Isn't reading stuff like commentary a bit like getting the Cliff's Notes rather than reading the novel for yourself? Sure, the person who wrote the Cliff's Notes might have done an okay job at interpreting the novel, but they probably haven't interpreted it exactly how the author intended... In which case, it becomes like that telephone game... where what was initially said becomes a little bit more distorted through each person it passes through... Now, if I interpret the Bible using just my own brain and the Lord's wisdom, sure, my understanding may not be 100% accurate, BUT, at least I'm not compounding the misunderstandings by also bringing someone else's misunderstandings into the issue. And I'm not saying that I don't believe in being teachable or in ever listening/reading what someone else has to say about God/the Bible... In fact, I love John Piper and have listened to a bunch of his sermons and conference messages. I guess I'm just saying, though, that we shoudln't ever look towards another human being as some perfect person who has all of the answers and understands everything perfectly. Even though I like John Piper, I don't look to him as the final authority on the Christian faith... My authority is the Bible and if Piper or Calvin or anyone else says something contrary to the Bible, then I'm going to believe my Bible, not twist the Bible around to match up with what I've heard elsewhere.
Does that make sense? I'm on an antihistamine right now that is making me SO ridiculously fuzzy headed. I feel like I'm struggling to even string sentences together. Blah...
The problem with the theory presented is very simple you claim the verses you present to be true and the verses that deal exclusively with who can be saved as false, and you say I am a, well you know Gee.
I will stick with the word of God that says according to the apostle's doctrine, that is in agreement with Jo 3:16
Or, Who shall descend into the deep? (that is, to bring up Christ again from the dead.)
Rom 8:8 But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;
9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
12 � For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!
16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?
17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
18 But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world.
If you read the bible cover to cover and are intellectually honest,what I think you see is a 100% in control powerful creator that has no equal in any way.
Time and time again he has stated that everything created is for HIS Glory
If he is all-knowing,Wich the bible says he is,then Satans rebellion did not surprise him,nor did mans.He would have to have logically created them knowing they would rebel.
The sin of satan and the sin of man is desiring his own will apart from God.He allows this to prove a point,that their is no ultimate happiness in being seperate from him.
Ther bible again and again states that mans natural condition is NOT desiring God or the things of God at all,and,Left on our own we are NOT capable of CHOOSING God
so god preordained a supernatural regeneration of a remnant chosen by grace,nothing deserving in anyone
we are not told how,or why he made this choice,we are also not told why dogs have to be dogs,or maggots.....ect.
what we are told is,the ones he chooses,will not,cannot,fall away.....these ones were given to Christ before time began
not because there was anything good in them,but because he decreed it for his Glory!
