But although He had done so many signs before them, they did not believe in Him, that the word of Isaiah the prophet might be fulfilled, which he spoke: “Lord, who has believed our report? And to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?” Therefore they could not believe, because Isaiah said again: These things Isaiah said when he saw His glory and spoke of Him. Nevertheless even among the rulers many believed in Him, but because of the Pharisees they did not confess Him, lest they should be put out of the synagogue; for they loved the praise of men more than the praise of God. Then Jesus cried out and said, “He who believes in Me, believes not in Me but in Him who sent Me. And he who sees Me sees Him who sent Me. I have come as a light into the world, that whoever believes in Me should not abide in darkness. And if anyone hears My words and does not believe, I do not judge him; for I did not come to judge the world but to save the world. He who rejects Me, and does not receive My words, has that which judges him—the word that I have spoken will judge him in the last day.
Like you said, God does still heal today. When Nebuchadnezzar threatened to throw Shadrach Meshach and Abednego into a pit of fire and said to them, "who is the god who will deliver you out of my hands", they "answered and said to the king, “O Nebuchadnezzar, we have no need to answer you in this matter. If that is the case, our God whom we serve is able to deliver us from the burning fiery furnace, and He will deliver us from your hand, O king. But if not, let it be known to you, O king, that we do not serve your gods, nor will we worship the gold image which you have set up.” Daniel 3:15-18 NKJV
So when Christians go through trials, doubts sometimes surface and sometimes people will try to speak against the power of God but like Shadrack, Meshack and Abednego, Christians know that God is all powerful and He has created every person and everything on earth and if He is willing, He can heal and deliver anyone from anything or any disease but even if He does not, we know that we are His children and we will always faithfully serve Him. Faith does require us to continually believe in His Word that He will do what He said He would. Everyone the Lord Jesus prayed for was healed and if He prayed for the dead to be raised, they were raised. Why is that? Because He is the Son of God. That is why I say if we should pray on another level to reach Him because when He shows up, that's when people are saved, healed, delivered and set free. Without Him, we can do nothing so we should spend time and get to know our Father and seek to please Him and trust Him in everything.
Your response is interesting because I did read your post although I may have strayed a bit so will read it again. I will say this, I am not deceived because I believe what the Lord Jesus said in His Word and healing does occur to this day. It is He that gives us power to stand and to wake up each day and to see.
LIttleDavid,
I don't like to argue especially since we both have received the Lord Jesus Christ. The Lord Jesus said in John 17:17, "Sanctify them by Your Truth. Your Word is Truth." Christians should choose to believe what God has said in His Word and not what the world has taught us because in the last day, it is His Word that will judge us. Like the Lord Jesus said in John 12:48 "He who rejects Me, and does not receive My words, has that which judges him— the word that I have spoken will judge him in the last day."
You know what the Scribes and Pharisees said about the Lord Jesus, John 7:12, And there was much complaining among the people concerning Him. Some said, “He is good”; others said, “No, on the contrary, He deceives the people.” God knows those who are His and unless you can talk to those people, how do we know. Also since it is God who heals, He can choose to do so instantly or over time. When the Lord Jesus returns, He will reveal the Truth to all about those things and those areas in which we are wrong He will correct us. I say for now it is better to focus on the primary mission of salvation and since God is the one who does it, just trust Him that He saves completely and provides each person whatever is needed. So let's just agree to get along as family in Christ and focus on those areas we agree on.
Romans 14:4 Who are you to judge another’s servant? To his own master he stands or falls. Indeed, he will be made to stand, for God is able to make him stand.
5 One person esteems one day above another; another esteems every day alike. Let each be fully convinced in his own mind. 6 He who observes the day, observes it to the Lord; and he who does not observe the day, to the Lord he does not observe it. He who eats, eats to the Lord, for he gives God thanks; and he who does not eat, to the Lord he does not eat, and gives God thanks. 7 For none of us lives to himself, and no one dies to himself. 8 For if we live, we live to the Lord; and if we die, we die to the Lord. Therefore, whether we live or die, we are the Lord’s. 9 For to this end Christ died [b]and rose and lived again, that He might be Lord of both the dead and the living. 10 But why do you judge your brother? Or why do you show contempt for your brother? For we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ. 11 For it is written: “As I live, says the Lord, Every knee shall bow to Me, And every tongue shall confess to God.” 12 So then each of us shall give account of himself to God. 13 Therefore let us not judge one another anymore, but rather resolve this, not to put a stumbling block or a cause to fall in our brother’s way.
I'll repost that second video in another post but as far as proving that God still heals, delivers, raises the dead, and opens blind eyes, it is God's work so He is the One who can persuade you and not me.
Please read the following Scripture: Luke 1:8-45. In this account, an angel was sent from God to Zacharias to annouce the birth of John but he appears to have doubted the angel saying, in verse 18, “How shall I know this? For I am an old man, and my wife is well advanced in years.” The angel said to him in verse 20, "But behold, you will be mute and not able to speak until the day these things take place, because you did not believe my words which will be fulfilled in their own time.” Also look at what the Word also says in Luke 1:34, "Then Simeon blessed them, and said to Mary His mother, “Behold, this Child is destined for the fall and rising of many in Israel, and for a sign which will be spoken against.
It seems that Mary believed God when the angel visited her and said that she would give birth to the Son of God and her response in verse 38 was, Then Mary said, “Behold the maidservant of the Lord! Let it be to me according to your word.” And the angel departed from her."
Christians should choose to believe God and what He says in His Word because the world doubts and speaks against God. Faith is taking God at His Word.
Some Scriptures that support this are: Numbers 23:19 “God is not a man, that He should lie, Nor a son of man, that He should repent. Has He said, and will He not do? Or has He spoken, and will He not make it good?"
Also, God reveals Himself to those who obey and believe His Word so sometimes disobedience and unbelief can cause us to miss what is right in front of our eyes - like the Lord Jesus said in the following verses:
John 14:21-24 He who has My commandments and keeps them, it is he who loves Me. And he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and manifest Myself to him.”
Judas (not Iscariot) said to Him, “Lord, how is it that You will manifest Yourself to us, and not to the world?” Jesus answered and said to him, “If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him. He who does not love Me does not keep My words; and the word which you hear is not Mine but the Father’s who sent Me."
I personally have heard a couple of testimonies of healing from a couple of people I know and while there are no doctor's reports, these are people that I know and went to church with - one guy who was raised in Jamaica was sick when he was about 16 years old and he couldn't eat because everything he ate just passed through his system and he passed maggots and food when he went. He said that he was about 56 pounds as a teenager but his grandmother took him to a church where they heard healings were happening and the minister called him up and prayed for him and said that God was going to heal him and bless him with wisdom and strength. He said after he went home he went to the bathroom and had an extremely strong bowel movement where he passed everything out of his system and from that day he began to gain weight and now he's in his 50s and looks like a body builder. Another pastor from a church in Wichita Falls, TX shared that as a child, he loved to pray and would pray for hours and at some point he developed a condition where he had a condition where he had sores all over his body that were not healing. He said he had a vision where he saw a cross and the Lord Jesus said he wanted him to give his life to Him. One morning he said he woke up and the sores were gone and there were only white spots where the sores had been that slowly faded with time.
We also have to remember that the Lord Jesus' mission is Salvation - to bring people back to God so the greatest Miracle that we see in all churches is when someone comes to the Lord and He writes their names in Heaven. Like the Lord Jesus said in Luke 10:19-20,
"Behold, I give you the authority to trample on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy, and nothing shall by any means hurt you. Nevertheless do not rejoice in this, that the spirits are subject to you, but rather rejoice because your names are written in heaven.” Also He says in John 6:39-40, This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day. And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day.”
We have to realize that the enemy does not want people to believe so even when miracles do happen, people doubt and do not believe. I know we have to be careful of people faking miracles but as Christians, we must believe because God said these things would happen in His Word.
Like Isaiah the prophet said in John 12:37-41, "But although He had done so many signs before them, they did not believe in Him, that the word of Isaiah the prophet might be fulfilled, which he spoke: “Lord, who has believed our report? And to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?” Therefore they could not believe, because Isaiah said again: “He has blinded their eyes and hardened their hearts, Lest they should see with their eyes, Lest they should understand with their hearts and turn, So that I should heal them.” These things Isaiah said when he saw His glory and spoke of Him."
Look also at the Lord Jesus' response to Thomas in the following John 20:24-29, Now Thomas, called the Twin, one of the twelve, was not with them when Jesus came. The other disciples therefore said to him, “We have seen the Lord.” So he said to them, “Unless I see in His hands the print of the nails, and put my finger into the print of the nails, and put my hand into His side, I will not believe.” And after eight days His disciples were again inside, and Thomas with them. Jesus came, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, “Peace to you!” Then He said to Thomas, “Reach your finger here, and look at My hands; and reach your hand here, and put it into My side. Do not be unbelieving, but believing.” And Thomas answered and said to Him, “My Lord and my God!”
Jesus said to him, “Thomas, because you have seen Me, you have believed. Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.”
I will say that we have all seen the greatest Miracle of Salvation occur all over the world and really that is the purpose of the Miracles so people will believe and come to Christ. Many times when I have heard of raising the dead, the lame walking, etc, they have been overseas in poorer nations and they seem to pray more and believe God more. It does seem that James 2:5 "holds true where it says, Has God not chosen the poor of this world to be rich in faith and heirs of the kingdom which He promised to those who love Him?"
I included a few testimonials that I've seen on youtube that show the power of God. If you decide to watch them, please pray and consider the following scripture before watching:
Mark 3:22-30 And the scribes who came down from Jerusalem said, “He has Beelzebub,” and, “By the ruler of the demons He casts out demons.” So He called them to Himself and said to them in parables: “How can Satan cast out Satan? If a kingdom is divided against itself, that kingdom cannot stand. And if a house is divided against itself, that house cannot stand. And if Satan has risen up against himself, and is divided, he cannot stand, but has an end. No one can enter a strong man’s house and plunder his goods, unless he first binds the strong man. And then he will plunder his house. “Assuredly, I say to you, all sins will be forgiven the sons of men, and whatever blasphemies they may utter; but he who blasphemes against the Holy Spirit never has forgiveness, but is subject to eternal condemnation”— because they said, “He has an unclean spirit.”
Man raised from the dead (testimony): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FPMMCZHqAHU
Woman delivered (Pray before watching) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AdILeJ88ZFY
Woman gets out of wheelchair https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8qqONI5WMTs
LittleDavid, our duty as Christians is to obey and believe what God has said in His Word - yes we should be wise and test what we see by His Word but all Christians should believe what He has said.
Luke 18:6-8 Then the Lord said, “Hear what the unjust judge said. And shall God not avenge His own elect who cry out day and night to Him, though He bears long with them? I tell you that He will avenge them speedily. Nevertheless, when the Son of Man comes, will He really find faith on the earth?”
Here we see that God does answer His people who cry out and pray to Him continually.
Matthew 17:19-21 Then the disciples came to Jesus privately and said, “Why could we not cast it out?”
So Jesus said to them, “Because of your unbelief; for assuredly, I say to you, if you have faith as a mustard seed, you will say to this mountain, ‘Move from here to there,’ and it will move; and nothing will be impossible for you. However, this kind does not go out except by prayer and fasting.”
We see here that the power of the Lord comes through prayer and fasting to set people free. We know that the Lord Jesus at least at times spent all night in prayer so we know that He spent hours in prayer so we should try to emulate Him and do the same.
Isaiah 59:1-2, "Behold, the Lord’s hand is not shortened,
That it cannot save; Nor His ear heavy, That it cannot hear. But your iniquities have separated you from your God; And your sins have hidden His face from you, So that He will not hear.'
This just speaks to the importance of purity in relation to God's Word because if we are sinning against Him, how can we expect Him to act on our behalf?
John 8:29 "And He who sent Me is with Me. The Father has not left Me alone, for I always do those things that please Him.”
This just shows the example that the Lord Jesus left for us. He was always obedient to the Word of God so God was always with Him.
John 15:5-7 “I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing. If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, you will ask what you desire, and it shall be done for you.
I think that a big issue is that many people go out and do things on behalf of the Lord Jesus without spending time with Him in prayer and in obedience to His Word so essentially they go without Him. Like He says here, without Him, we can do nothing. When we do see salvation or healing or deliverance happening in the world now, it is the Lord Jesus doing it. I think that's the importance of prayer and fasting is to get us to God and obedience so that He is with us when we minister so that He touches the people - it is not the touch of men that saves or heals or delivers - it is the touch of God that does the salvation, the healing and the deliverance.
2.) Would you please explain your method of biblical interpretation, ie how you determine meaning and how you determine it’s practical application?
Matthew 13:10-11 "And the disciples came and said to Him, “Why do You speak to them in parables?”
He answered and said to them, “Because it has been given to you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been given."
Based on the above scripture, the Lord Jesus spoke some things in parables.
Luke 10:22-24, "All things have been delivered to Me by My Father, and no one knows who the Son is except the Father, and who the Father is except the Son, and the one to whom the Son wills to reveal Him. Then He turned to His disciples and said privately, “Blessed are the eyes which see the things you see; for I tell you that many prophets and kings have desired to see what you see, and have not seen it, and to hear what you hear, and have not heard it.”
The advantage that the disciples had was that the Lord Jesus was there with them and He explained everything to them.
Matthew 16:16-17, "Simon Peter answered and said, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.” Jesus answered and said to him, “Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jonah, for flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but My Father who is in heaven."
Here we see that the Father revealed who the Lord Jesus is to Peter.
Finally in John 14:25-26 the Lord Jesus said, “These things I have spoken to you while being present with you. But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all things that I said to you."
The Holy Spirit also reveals the interpretation and truth of God's Word to His people.
It is also important to remember what Proverbs 11:14 says, "Where there is no counsel, the people fall; But in the multitude of counselors there is safety." It is important therefore to go to fellow believers and talk to them and listen to ensure we do not misinterpret scripture or go astray.
- In the New Testament, those in Christ are called the body of Christ. If there is someone let's say in a dating relationship and that person tempts a person to fornicate, then they should either separate to ensure salvation or marry to be pure in the sight of God. There are many other examples such as one I heard in the news where a guy convinced a group of men he knew from a bar to rob this wealthy car dealer at his home. They listened and proceeded with the robbery but in the process the guy who persuaded the other men killed the car dealer and his wife in front of 9 of their adopted children. If they had separated, they would have been spared judgement but because they heeded the guy, they are now all in jail for murder charges.
In another case, some people, after reading the passage about picking up snakes, have literally begun snake handling ministries‼️‼️‼️ They claim their snake handling activities are in response to biblical obedience‼️
I think the Bible speaks to the fact that God protects His people but our response should be like the Lord Jesus when the devil tempted Him in Matthew 4:5-7, "Then the devil took Him up into the holy city, set Him on the pinnacle of the temple, and said to Him, “If You are the Son of God, throw Yourself down. For it is written:
‘He shall give His angels charge over you,’ and, ‘In their hands they shall bear you up, Lest you dash your foot against a stone.’ ” Jesus said to him, “It is written again, ‘You shall not tempt the Lord your God.’ ”
So we as Christians should trust that God will protect us if a snake happens to bite us but we shouldn't go looking for snakes to bite us to see if God will heal us. In the same way, most people would not purposely get sick to test to see if God would heal them. That is unwise but if and when we are sick, we pray for God's intervention. Like I said, there is a greater level of prayer where we actually meet with God and that's the place where I believe all Christians should strive to attain.
Amen. There are many people all over the world in such horrible situations and relationships. We definitely should pray for the freedom of that lady and people in such situations all over the world. It seems to me that it is important for all Christians to get as close to Christ as possible though studying and obeying His Word and spending time with Him in prayer and worship. Like the Lord Jesus said in John 3:16, "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish but have everlasting life." I have said before that its amazing how the Lord Jesus knew the Father more than anyone else on earth yet He also prayed more than anyone on earth. We should follow His example because the world and all Christians need Him. Like the Lord Jesus said, by this all men will know that you are My disciples if you have love one for another. Also, like the Apostle Paul said in
Galatians 5, 19-26, "Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.
But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control. Against such there is no law. And those who are Christ’s have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit. Let us not become conceited, provoking one another, envying one another." We should definitely always examine ourselves in the light of God's Word to crucify the flesh so we can display the fruits of God's Spirit.
Imagine if the Lord Jesus were here on earth today, what would His ministry look like? I think it would look exactly like it did then as far as many people being saved and set free. I would dare say that we do see Him now in churches all over the world - the Gospel is preached, people are saved, people are healed, demons are cast out, the blind see, dead are raised.... To be a Christian is to obey and believe what the Lord Jesus said like He said in Mark 16:15-18, "And He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature. He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned. And these signs will follow those who believe: In My name they will cast out demons; they will speak with new tongues; they will take up serpents; and if they drink anything deadly, it will by no means hurt them; they will lay hands on the sick, and they will recover.”
I'm glad you started this topic. Up front I'd like to address the idea of deliverance ministry. First of all the Lord Jesus' ministry was and is to this day a deliverance ministry. He said in Luke 4:18, “The Spirit of the Lord is upon Me, Because He has anointed Me To preach the gospel to the poor; He has sent Me to heal the brokenhearted, To proclaim liberty to the captives And recovery of sight to the blind, To set at liberty those who are oppressed; To proclaim the acceptable year of the Lord.” We saw Him cast out many demons out of many people in the gospels. The objective of course was "to set at liberty those who are oppressed" and "to proclaim the acceptable year of the Lord" He came to set us all free from the bondages of sin and the devil and to restore us to God. I'd say that everyone who is a Christian has been set free from sin and the devil who uses sin to keep people in bondage. I remember years ago I went to a church prayer meeting and had an awesome time in the Lord's Presence and afterwards a sister in the Lord asked me to take her to a laundromat to dry some clothes and I opened my small Bible and began to read it silently while we were there and there was a man and woman there I guess washing their clothes also(they were the only other people there besides us). Anyway the lady asked if I was reading a Bible and before I could say yes, the guy said shutup to her and said she should leave us alone. I nodded my head and muttered to the lady yes that I was reading the Bible and next the lady and guy started arguing. The lady was saying, "there is a God" and the guy was saying, "there is no god". I thought it was awkward but stayed out of it and then at some point the guys voice changed and got really deep like you would hear in one of those horror movies (which I no longer watch) and he started saying how he was going to take the lady to hell and torment her. I looked at the sister who I brought to the laundromat confused because I was a new Christian and had never seen anything like that and she said that it was a demon (manifesting in that guy). So we started praying out loud and the guy started freaking out going back and forth and we were trying to witness to the lady but then the guys voice started changing back and forth into a sweet voice towards the lady saying he loved her and a harsh voice towards us and the lady was just saying that she was so confused. At some point the guy convinced the lady and they kissed and went into a back room and the sister grabbed her clothes and we left. I've never experienced anything quite like that since although I have been at church services where they have said demons were cast out when people went up for prayer and I have seen a number of videos on youtube regarding the subject. My point is that it's real and the objective of God is to try to bring people to Christ and if the devil is in the way, God wants to move him out of the way so a person can be saved. It is all the work of God and like the Lord Jesus said in Mark 9:29, “This kind can come out by nothing but prayer and fasting.” I think if we want to see God save people and set them free, we as Christians need to follow the example of the Lord Jesus and obey the Word of God and spend a whole lot more time in pray and fasting and just seeking God. The Lord Jesus also said in Matthew 10:8, "Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out demons. Freely you have received, freely give." Just be wary of anyone who is asking for money associated with deliverance - the Lord Jesus said "freely give." So He does tell us to do those things but He also said in Luke 24:49, "
Behold, I send the Promise of My Father upon you; but tarry in the city of Jerusalem until you are endued with power from on high.” So I think there is a far closer level of relationship with God in obedience to Him and prayer and worship where when we get there, He shows up and He heals, He saves, and He sets people free from any bondages. It is definitely His work and not ours so He has to be there. I have come to a conclusion lately that if the Lord Jesus shows up to heal someone or set them free, they will be healed and set free. My thoughts have been that we need the Lord Jesus to show up and visit His people because without Him, there is no salvation or healing or deliverance. God bless you and thank you for your starting this topic. Hopefully we'll hear from others on the subject.
If you have not the Holy Spirit leading and you try to argue the Word of God, you need deliverance
Posted : 8 Nov, 2021 05:14 PM
Moonlight7,
I think that you have spoken very precisely about a question that I have been asking myself. It seems that I have encountered quite a few people most outside of the church but a few in the church that get very angry and confrontational when discussing what seems to me to be very simple truths from the Word of God. While this subject of deliverance is still relatively new to me, I think in summary it references the fact that a person in that state needs a touch from Christ. It's the same touch that all receive when we first are saved and brought to Christ. With the internet and youtube revealing a lot of what goes on in different parts of the world, I have recently seen videos of ministers praying for people and many being set free from the oppression of the enemy. I initially doubted but then called to mind our Lord Jesus how when He came to Earth, He set multitudes free from the oppression of evil spirits. Like I said before, you have spoken very well that all need a touch from Jesus Christ our Lord to be truly set free from the enemy. I will say that it appears to me that some need a greater touch from Him and I think that requires a visit with the Lord Jesus even to the Holy of Holies so He can intervene on behalf of those who are bound and set them free.
Just consider that Christian's have the Spirit of God and nonChristians have the spirit of the enemy. There will be conflict for that reason alone. The Lord Jesus said, The thief does not come except to steal, and to kill, and to destroy. I have come that they may have life, and that they may have it more abundantly.
John 10:10 NKJV
https://bible.com/bible/114/jhn.10.10.NKJV So that's the difference.
