"The hallmark of an authentic evangelicalism is not the uncritical repetition of old traditions, but the willingness to submit every tradition,however ancient, to fresh biblical scrutiny and, if necessary, reform."
�JOHN STOTT, TWENTIETH-CENTURY BRITISH MINISTER AND
BIBLE SCHOLAR
"The real trouble is not in fact that the church is too rich but that it has become heavily institutionalized, with a crushing investment in maintenance. It has the characteristics of the dinosaur and battleship. It is saddled with a plant and a programme beyond its means, so that it is absorbed in problems of supply and preoccupied with survival.The inertia of the machine is such that the financial allocations, the legalities, the channels of organization, the attitudes of mind, a real set in the direction of continuing and enhancing the status quo. If one wants to pursue a course which cuts across these channels,then most of one's energies are exhausted before one ever reaches the enemy lines."
�JOHN A. T. ROBINSON, TWENTIETH-CENTURY ENGLISH
NEW TESTAMENT SCHOLAR
WALK INTO ANY CHRISTIAN CHURCH service and you'll find it will usu-ally begin with the singing of hymns, choruses, or praise and worship songs. One person (or a team of people) will both lead and direct the singing. In more traditional churches, it will be the choir director or the music minister. (In some churches, this role is even played by the senior pastor.) Or it may be handled by the choir itself. In con-temporary churches, it will be the worship leader or the praise and worship team.
Leading up to the sermon, those who "lead worship" select the songs that are to be sung. They begin those songs. They decide how those songs are to be sung. And they decide when those songs are over. Those sitting in the audience in no way, shape, or form lead the singing. They are led by someone else who is often part of the clerical staff�or who has similar stature.
This is in stark contrast to the first-century way. In the early church, worship and singing were in the hands of all of God's people.' The church herself led her own songs. Singing and leading songs was a corporate affair, not a professional event led by specialists.
THE ORIGINS OF THE CHOIR
This all began to change with the rise of the clergy and the advent of the Christian choir, which dates back to the fourth century. Shortly after the Edict of Milan (AD 313), the persecution of Christians ceased. During Constantine's reign, choirs were developed and trained to help celebrate the Eucharist. The practice was borrowed from Roman custom, which began its imperial ceremonies with processional music. Special schools were established, and choir singers were given the status of a second-string clergy.
The roots of the choir are found in the pagan Greek temples and Greek dramas.' Will Durant states it beautifully: "In the MiddleAges, as in ancient Greece, the main fountainhead of drama was inreligious liturgy. The Mass itself was a dramatic spectacle; the sanc-tuary a sacred stage; the celebrants wore symbolic costumes; priestand acolytes engaged in dialogue; and the antiphonal responses ofpriest and choir, and of choir to choir, suggested precisely that sameevolution of drama from dialogue that had generated the sacredDionysian play."'
With the advent of the choir in the Christian church, singing was no longer done by all of God's people but by clerical staff composed of trained singers.' This shift was partly due to the fact thatheretical doctrines were spread through hymn singing. The clergyfelt that if the singing of hymns was in their control, it would curb thespread of heresy.' But it was also rooted in the ever-growing powerof the clergy as the main performers in the Christian drama.'
By AD 367, congregational singing was altogether banned. Itwas replaced by music from the trained choirs.' Thus was born thetrained professional singer in the church. Singing in Christian worship was now the domain of the clergy and choir.
Ambrose is credited for creating the first postapostolic Christianhymns.' These hymns were modeled on the old Greek modes and called by Greek names.' Ambrose also created a collection of liturgi-cal chants that are still used today in some Catholic churches." Theliturgical chant is the direct descendant of the pagan Roman chant,which goes back to the ancient Sumarian cities."
Papal choirs began in the fifth century." When Gregory theGreat became pope near the end of the sixth century, he reorganizedthe Schola Cantorum (school of singing) in Rome. (This school wasfounded by Pope Sylvester, who died in AD 335.)
With this school, Gregory established professional singers whotrained Christian choirs all throughout the Roman Empire. The singers trained for nine years. They had to memorize every song that they sang�including the famous Gregorian chant." Gregory wipedout the last vestiges of congregational singing, believing music was aclerical function and the exclusive right of trained singers.
Trained choirs, trained singers, and the end of congregationalsinging all reflected the cultural mind-set of the Greeks. Much likeoratory (professional speaking), the Greek culture was built aroundan audience-performer dynamic. Tragically, this trait was carried overfrom the temples of Diana and the Greek dramas straight into theChristian church. The congregation of God's people became spectatorsnot only in spoken ministry, but in singing as well.' Regrettably, thespirit of Greek spectatorship still lives in the contemporary church.
Christian boys' choirs also go back to the days of Constantine.Some still exist. Most were created from orphanages." The Vienna Boys Choir, for example, was founded in Vienna, Austria, in 1498. Thechoir sang exclusively for the court, at Mass, and at private concertsand state events." The first boys' choirs were actually established bypagans who worshipped Greco-Roman gods." These pagans believedthat the voice of young boys possessed special powers."
THE FUNERAL DIRGE AND PROCESSION
Another form of music with pagan roots is the funeral dirge. It was brought into the Christian church in the early third century. As one scholar put it, "The pagan cult of the dead was too much a part of thepast lives of many Christians, formerly pagans, for them simply to beable to replace pagan dirges and funeral music with Psalmody.'
During the days of Constantine, Roman betrothal practices andfuneral processions were adapted and transformed into Christian"funerals."This was borrowed from pagan practice." The so-calledfuneral dirge that is observed and accepted by Christians also cameout of paganism.' It was brought into the Christian church in theearly third century. Tertullian was opposed to Christian funeral pro-cession simply because it had pagan origins.'
Not only did the funeral procession emerge out of paganism; sodid the funeral oration. It was the common practice of pagans in theRoman Empire to hire one of the town's eloquent professors to speakat the funeral of a loved one. The speaker followed a little handbookfor such occasions. He would work himself up to a passionate pitchand then say of the deceased, "He now lives among the gods, travers-ing the heavens and looking down on life below."" It was his job to comfort the loved ones of the deceased. This role is filled today bythe contemporary pastor. Even the words of the oration are strikinglysimilar!
THE CONTRIBUTION OF THE REFORMATION
The major musical contribution of the Reformers was the restora-tion of congregational singing and the use of instruments. John Huss(1372-1415) of Bohemia and his followers (called Hussites) wereamong the first to bring both back into the church.'-'
Luther also encouraged congregational singing during certain partsof the service.' But congregational hymn singing did not reach its peakuntil the eighteenth century during the Wesleyan revival in England."
In Reformation churches, the choir remained. It both supportedand led congregational singing." About 150 years after the Reforma-tion, congregational singing became a generally accepted practice." Bythe eighteenth century, the organ would take the place of the choir inleading Christian worship."
Interestingly, there is no evidence of musical instruments in theChristian church service until the Middle Ages." Before then, all sing-ing during the service was unaccompanied by musical instruments.'
The church fathers took a dim view of musical instruments, associat-ing them with immorality and idolatry.35 Calvin agreed, viewing musi-cal instruments as pagan. Consequently, for two centuries, Reformedchurches sang psalms without the use of instruments."
The organ was the first instrument used by post-ConstantinianChristians.' Organs were found in Christian churches as early asthe sixth century. But they were not used during the Mass until thetwelfth century. By the thirteenth century, the organ became an inte-gral part of the Mass."
The organ was first used to give the tone to the priests and thechoir." During the Reformation, the organ became the standardinstrument used in Protestant worship�except among the Calvin-ists, who removed and demolished church organs.' The first organto be purchased by an American church was in 1704.41
The first Protestant choirs began flourishing in the mid-eighteenthcentury." Special seats were assigned to choir members to show theirspecial status.
At first, the function of the choir was to set the pitch for con-gregational singing. But before long, the choir began to contributespecial selections.' Thus was born special music by the choir as thecongregation watched it perform.
By the end of the nineteenth century, the children's choir made itsappearance in American churches.' By this time, it became customaryfor the choir in nonliturgical churches to play special music. (Thispractice was eventually carried over to liturgical churches as well.)"
The location of the choir is worth noting. In the late sixteenthcentury, the choir moved from the chancel (clergy platform) to therear gallery where a pipe organ was installed.' But during the OxfordMovement of the late nineteenth and early twentieth centuries, thechoir returned to the chancel. It was at this time that choir membersbegan wearing ecclesiastical robes." By the 1920s and 1930s, it wascustomary for American choirs to wear these special vestments tomatch the newly acquired neo-Gothic church buildings." The choirin their archaic clerical clothes were now standing with the clergy infront of the people!"
THE ORIGIN OF THE WORSHIP TEAM
In many contemporary churches, whether charismatic or noncharis-matic, the choir has been replaced by the worship team." Suchchurches have sanctuaries that boast few religious symbols (exceptpossibly banners).
At the front of the stage is a simple podium, some plants, ampli-fiers, speakers, and lots of wires. The dress is usually casual. Foldingchairs or theater seats typically are used in place of pews. The standardworship team includes an amplified guitar, drums, keyboard, possiblya bass guitar, and some special vocalists. Words are usually projectedonto a screen or a bare wall by an overhead (or video) projector or byPowerPoint slides. The songs are typically selected before the wor-ship service. There are rarely songbooks or hymnals.
In such churches, worship means following the band's prescribedsongs. The praise and worship time typically lasts from twenty to fortyminutes. The first songs are usually upbeat praise choruses.' Theworship team will then lead a lively, hand-clapping, body-swaying,
hand-raising, (sometimes dancing) congregation into a potpourri ofindividualistic, gentle, worshipful singing. (Typically, the focus of thesongs is on individual spiritual experience. First person singular pro-nouns�I, me, my�dominate a good number of the songs." In somecontemporary churches, the trend is moving more toward corporate,first person plural lines�we, us, our. This is a wonderful shift.)
As the band leaves the stage, ushers pass the offering plates. Thisis usually followed by the sermon, and the pastor dominates the restof the service. In many churches, the pastor will call the worship teamto return to the stage to play a few more worshipful songs as he windsup his sermon. "Ministry time" may ensue as the band plays on.
The song liturgy just described works like clockwork in thetypical charismatic and nondenominational church. But where didit come from?
In 1962, a group of dissatisfied British church musicians in Dun-blane, Scotland, tried to revitalize traditional Christian songs. Ledby Congregational minister Erik Routley, these artists were influ-enced by Bob Dylan and Sydney Carter. George Shorney Jr. of HopePublishing Company brought their new style to the United States.These new Christian hymns were a reform, but not a revolution. Therevolution came when rock and roll was adapted into Christian musicwith the coming of the Jesus movement. This reform set the stage forthe revolutionary musical changes to take root in the Christian churchthrough Calvary Chapel and the Vineyard.53
The origin of the worship team goes back to the founding ofCalvary Chapel in 1965. Chuck Smith, the founder of the denomina-tion, started a ministry for hippies and surfers. Smith welcomed thenewly converted hippies to retune their guitars and play their nowredeemed music in church. He gave the counterculture a stage fortheir music�allowing them to play Sunday night performances and concerts. The new musical forms began to be called "praise and wor-ship."' As the Jesus movement began to flourish, Smith founded therecord company Maranatha Music in the early 1970s. Its goal was todistribute the songs of these young artists."
The Vineyard, under the influence of musical genius John Wim-ber, followed suit with the worship team. Wimber, a former CalvaryChapel pastor, became head of the Vineyard movement in 1982. Sincethat time, the Vineyard has probably had more influence on establish-ing worship teams and worship music than Calvary Chapel. Vineyardmusic is regarded as more intimate and worshipful, while CalvaryChapel's music is known for its upbeat, praise-oriented songs."
In due time, the guitar replaced the organ as the central instru-ment that led worship in the Protestant church. Although patternedafter the rock concert of secular culture, the worship team has becomeas common as the pulpit.
SO WHAT'S THE GRIPE?
Perhaps you are wondering, What's wrong with having a choir leader,a worship leader, or a worship team to lead the church's singing? Nothing. . . if every member of the church is content with it. However, manyChristians feel that it robs God's people of a vital function: to selectand lead their own singing in the meetings�to have divine worshipin their own hands�to allow Jesus Christ to direct the singing of Hischurch rather than have it led by a human facilitator. Singing in theearly church was marked by these very features.
Listen to Paul's description of a first-century church meeting:"Every one of you hath a psalm" (1 Corinthians 14:26). "Speak toone another with psalms, hymns and spiritual songs" (Ephesians 5:19,NIV). Consider the words "every one of you." Song leaders, choirs,and worship teams make this impossible by limiting the headship of Christ�specifically His ministry of leading His brethren into sing-ing praise songs to His Father. Of this ministry (which is little knowntoday), the writer of Hebrews says, "Both the one who makes menholy and those who are made holy are of the same family. So Jesus isnot ashamed to call them brothers. He says, 'I will declare your nameto my brothers; in the presence of the congregation [ekklesia] I willsing your praises" (Hebrews 2:11-12, NIV).
When worship songs can only be announced, initiated, and led bythe talented, this element of the service becomes more like entertain-ment than corporate worship." And only those who "make the cut"are allowed to participate in the ministry of leading songs. We wouldargue that according to New Testament principle, the ministry ofsinging belongs in the hands of all of God's people. And there shouldbe an outlet for this ministry to be expressed.
I (Frank) am no theoretician. For almost twenty years I havegathered with churches where every member has been trained to starta song spontaneously." Imagine: Every brother and sister free to leadsongs under the headship of Jesus Christ�even to write his or herown songs and bring them to the meeting for all to learn. I have metwith numerous churches that have experienced this glorious dynamic.Someone starts a song and everyone joins in. Then someone elsebegins another song, and so worship continues without long pausesand with no visible leader present.
This is exactly how the first-century Christians worshipped, bythe way. Yet it is a rare experience in the modern-day institutionalchurch. The good news is that it is possible and available for all whowish to experience Christ's headship through song in a church meet-ing. The singing in such churches is intensely corporate rather thanindividualistic and subjective."
"By the rivers of Babylon, there we sat down, yea, we wept, when we remembered Zion. We hanged our harps upon the willows in themidst thereof. For there they that carried us away captive requiredof us a song; and they that wasted us required of us mirth, saying,Sing us one of the songs of Zion. How shall we sing the LORD'S songin a strange land?" . . . "When the LORD turned again the captivityof Zion, we were like them that dream. Then was our mouth filledwith laughter, and our tongue with singing: then said they among theheathen, The Lord hath done great things for them" (Psalm 137:1-4;126:1-2).
>delving DEEPER
1.You expose the "pagan roots" of the church choir; yet I don't see why that in and of itself makesit less valuable. I don't have the gift of singing but appreciate that those who love music and aregifted in that area take the time and effort to prepare to lead me into worship through song. Yourthoughts?
We also appreciate those who are musically gifted and who can use their musicaltalents to bless others. However, to relegate the song selections in every churchgathering to a select few (i.e., a choir or worship team) disallows the rest of the bodyfrom participating in this ministry. This contradicts Scripture. As Paul says, "everyone of you hath a psalm" in the gathering (1 Corinthians 14:26).
2.Currently my pastor and the worship team leader choose music that corresponds with the morn-ing's message. I may not "connect" with every song chosen but don't see how that would be anydifferent if everyone present were invited to choose and lead a song.
If one has never seen a group of Christians choosing and leading their own songsspontaneously under Christ's headship, it is difficult to grasp what this would looklike. Suffice it to say that there is a world of difference between having a select groupof people pick the songs and having every believer participate in initiating songs.It is the difference between passively following one person (or a small group) andeveryone actively participating together spontaneously.
3. In the Old Testament period (see 1 Chronicles 23:5, 30; 25:1-31, 2 Chronicles 7:6), God instituted"professional" worship leaders among the Levitical families who led public worship and wrote
many of the Psalms (e.g., those by Asaph and the descendants of Korah). Do you think this providesa biblical basis for a valid music ministry? Why or why not?
We believe these passages actually support our point. The Old Testament priesthoodwas restricted to a select group of people�the Levites. In the New Covenant, thatselective priesthood has been done away with, and every Christian has been made apriest unto God. We are not part of the Levitical priesthood; we are priests after theorder of Melchizedek (Hebrews 5-7). Christ is our High Priest, and every believeris a priest under Him (1 Peter 2:5, 9; Revelation 1:6). Therefore, to our minds, thesepassages show that every Christian has the right to participate in "leading worship"under Christ's headship.
AgapetonME: Honey, don't change the subject here ok. It's not the instruments that is the issue. Focus, sister. Focus on the appointed structure that is evident in the way we practice and the DIFFERENCE FROM THE Scriptures that PAUL PRESENTS US NOW...
Ella: Agaepton: What does all this mean? Explain your above statement and make it clear as to what you're talking about here as it relates to the article on musicial insturments in the church and prasie teams and leading of songs, and what I posted as you see the " evident in the way we practice and the DIFFERENCE FROM THE Scriptures that PAUL PRESENTS US"... just what is the evidence and difference Paul presents to us in scripture
ME: In light of the article, Can you prove FROM THE SCRIPTURES THAT PAUL PRESENTS THE GENTILE BELIEVERS that there is a WORSHIP TEAM THAT SINGS PICKS AND CHOOSES SONGS FOR THE BELIEVERS EVERY WEEK or DOES HE SHOW THAT ""ANY AND ALL"" THE BELIEVERS HAVE A SAY SO AT THE TIME OF THE GATHERING WHICH IS A SPONTANEOUS EVENT LED BY THE HOLY SPIRIT ACCORDING TO PAUL?
I'll re quote something so that you can see what I am getting at:
"Listen to Paul's description of a first-century church meeting:"EVERY ONE OF YOU hath a psalm" (1 Corinthians 14:26). "Speak TO ONE ANOTHER with psalms, hymns and spiritual songs" (Ephesians 5:19,NIV). Consider the words "EVERY ONE OF YOU." Song leaders, choirs,and worship teams MAKE THIS IMPOSSIBLE by limiting the headship of Christ�specifically His ministry of leading His brethren into singing praise songs to His Father. Of this ministry (which is little known today), the writer of Hebrews says, "Both the one who makes men holy and those who are made holy are of the same family. So Jesus is not ashamed to call them brothers. He says, 'I will declare your nameto my brothers; in the presence of the congregation [ekklesia] I willsing your praises" (Hebrews 2:11-12, NIV).
When worship songs can only be announced, initiated, and led bythe talented, this element of the service becomes more like entertainment than corporate worship." And only those who "make the cut" are allowed to participate in the ministry of leading songs. We would argue that according to New Testament principle, the ministry of singing belongs in the hands of all of God's people. And there shouldbe an outlet for this ministry to be expressed."
Agapeton here is where you are, you are right and the bible is wrong, very interesting how you continually exalt yourself
ME: Bro, please. Don't go back to your usual strife mode, bro. If you can't contribute then just walk away without saying anything, man. No one will think bad of you, if you do it. Really. Either you try and contribute with something to edify or walk away with a peaceful heart cause your words really reveal your heart, bro.
I will say that I attend 2 churches 1 is the church I was raised in 100 miles from where I live , I must say its a huge church full gospel pentecostal church (not carismatic non denomicatonal word of faith) They have a big choir that sings wonderful songs I love to hear they aslo have prior to the choir singing when service begins the congrigational singing of hyms from the hymm book! I have no issue with this its traddional yes but in a church tta size it would be nearly immpossiblew for anyone to start singing a song like this gentelman has stated! It really is a big church I can see the disorder if this was to happen 1 memeber on one side starts singing one song and cant hear that at the same time way way over on the other side someone else is singing something else. It would be disorder!
As far as the pegan roots of choirs I say that goes back to God being able to work everything for his glory!
We had this conversation about holidays sometime back!
Christmas for example is the birthday of a pegan god who was said to be born of a virgin, not Jesus bit a god whos name was horas I believe but I could be wrong!
and then there is easter which I do not celebrate at all yet I celebrate resurection sunday as easter is a word derived from another word Ishtar which is the name of the pegan goddess of fertility hence the bunnys ,eggs and brand new dresses that mark easter celebrations!
With that being said God doesnt punish ignorance too much if the heart is right so there are many people who would attend church on christmas or easter that wouldnt otherwise and maybe thats the service that their heart gets pricked in and they end up getting saved! So the Lord has all thge power to change things meant for evil into things that glorify him!
Now I also attend a church here where I live in LA (lower alabama) that is very very small I love it just as much its diferent however because its small we can all hear what anyone else says without having to have a mega phone we do not practice people just busting out in sing however we do have much input in what is sung, we have 2 parts to our song service one is where the "choir " sings and the whole church is invited to stand up in the front with the musicians and sing in the "choir" there are many times when there is nobody to even hear us singing as we are all up in front singing in what we call our choir , now while we are there we are encouraged to choose a song to sing either out of the hymm book or just a wsong we all know, anything goes as long as it glorfies God, if their is someone who isnt up ther singing they too are encoraged to pick a song and they are encoraged to sing along if they would like to as not to embarass anyone!
The second part of our song service includes "specials" not like other churches havde planed out specials that are pre arranged with thge music director but sponataniously we are encoraged to say yes I would like to sing this includes anyone who wants to, sadly its usualy the same people that want to, some just donty feel they are singers, me myself I know I have the gift or shall I say talent of singing but even if I didnt I would sing to my Lord because he loves to hear us all sing for him, if we are truly doing it for God it matters not if people like it! But I love to sing none the less and they do like to hear me sing and never a service passes that I am not specificaly asked if I have a song to sing. Thats human nature to want to hear the ones that are good at it, but its not to say that EVERYONE in the curch service is invited up to singg a song if they want to or to pick a song to be sung by the entire congrigation!
As far as sharing on wed night we have open discussion the pastor usualy picks the subject however ANYTIME someone has a subject they would liketo get up and share or a devotion all they have to do is speak up and say so and they will be encouraged to do so.
Unfortunaly if the service as left to the congrigation most times there would be disorder because most times people have worked all week and have not taken the time to study for something to share. Lots of times though in fact I would say most times we will have several who will satnd and share with the rest of the congrigation what the Lord has done for the week with them!
Our churech does not subscribe to the traditons of men and we recently changed our sunday service schedule for that reason, not just so we would be different from tradition but because its what works best for us as a body, we did until jan 1st have tradtional am and pm services but we had a split we had some that came to the am and not the pm and a whole nother crowd who came to pm and not am, so we took a vote to change our sunday service to 2pm on sunday well sunday school at 2 and service at 3, which I really love it this way, my boss actuly started scheduling me to work sundy mornings that very sunday without me ever telling him about the change, it was plainly the Lord who had fixed it for me so that I could get more rest, I was drained from working all week through saturday night then 2 services on sunday and having only mondays to catch up on my house work and frequent drs apointments due to many health issues I have had for some time so now I get off work sunday go straith to church after changing clothes of corse, then home bu 5 sunday and then I dont go back to work until weds morning its like a small vaction every wekk in which the Lord clearly knew I needed, I know I am working on sunday but I also know that the sabath is for man not man for the sabath, I glrofy God in my life and I do not allow work to interfear with attending church, I do not subscribe to the traditions of men. Now that I work sunday mornings I get twice as much rest and isnt that what the sabath was all about?
But I got off track I am saying that all pentecostal full gospel chruches dont have worship teams and song leaders that dominate the song service also I would like to add that if we didnt have a song leader who is also our piano player there would be times when there was no songs sang except the hymms we all sing, as there isnt alwasy someone in the congrigation who wants to sing, myself sometimes I just want to hear a song while I worship the lord and listen to the words that are in the song. Nothing wrong with just listening and letting the song minister to you
Agapeton, you posted a quote from and artcile, yet you have not answered my question, becasue you have no answer only negative arguments as you do, and expressions of your displease in how OTHER WORSHIP GOD, which has NOT ONE THINGS TO DO WITH YOU! Its God busnisess and not your.
Also, you have not presented any scripture from God's word wherein God requires us NOT TO WORSHIP HIM as is done in the local church. What you have posted is Paul rebuking the Corinthians because they were not in ORDER and there was confusion in the church when it came to the use of their spiritual gifts in their worship services. So he was questioning their motives and he says this:I Corinthians 14:26 How is it then, brethren? Whenever you come together, each of you has a psalm, has a teaching, has a tongue, has a revelation, has an interpretation. Let all things be done for edification.
In other words Paul is syaing how is it that you can conduct the order of snging , and giving a word but you can be in order in other matters of worship. That's the point of what Paul is speaking here in these passages. He is correcting them and baming then with their faults of true worship to cut down on the confusion during worship service when they gathered.
Sorry, but your argument nor does the article hold water of any spiritual sort, nor can you find any scripture to supoort that what your opinion is about what God requires. You speak not from spiritual knowlegde in knowing, but from what you read online in articles that you agree with your OPINIONS!
God's concern is about ORDER when gathered to worship and praise Him. Not what YOU or anyone else thinks how anyone should worship or praise Him.
Nevertheless, I ask you, what do you propose the local church should do?
Also I ask what are YOU, PERSONALLY DOING to follow the pratice of the early 1st century chhurch in how you worship and praise God when you gather with whomever you gather with?
And again, What is the spiritual purposed mission of your gathering?
Do you and others recognize Christ as the head of your gathering and are you carrying out what God has told the body of Christ to do in the Great Commission?
Is Jesus Christ the mission of your gathering to GO teach and preach and help to the poor and lost?
It would seem this is what God is concerned about and not the non-essentials of a choir, or instruments or a praise team, or a song leader before the congregation. And you can't provide any scripture wherein God said not to have such in the local church.Or that it is a sin.
So what do you propose and what are you personally doing in your gatherings to make these changes?
How you choose to worship and praise God is between you and God, just as it is between God and those who worship Him, and its not your concern how others worship and praise Him, or how YOU THINK THEY SHOULD.
So again WHAT'S YOUR PROBLEM??... and what do you recommend?..
Is the local church to resort backward to the 1st century church practices? If so, then are YOU PERSONALLY DOING WHAT THE 1ST CENTURY CHURCH DID, NOT JUST IN SOME THINGS, BUT IN ALL THINGS?
Are you and those you gather with examples of the 1st century church?
Because of the way you worship and prasie God as according to the 1st cnetury church, has it made you closer and and more spiritual in knowing God's word, and given you a closer connection in wlaking in the pwoer of the Holy Spirit?
Have you received more revelation knowledge, wisdom and understanding as to who GOD is by the way you worship and prasie HIm according to what YOU THINK HAPPENED IN THE FIRST CENTURY CHURCH?
The truth be known, you have no idea what took place in any of the churches except what Paul has wrtten as a rebuke ot the church at Corinth. In fact, God's word DOES NOT TELL US WHAT THEY DID IN EVERY WORSHIP SERVICE, SO YOU DON'T KNOW IF THEY HAD A song leader, insturments, or not!?
CORRECTIONS BY ELLA: In other words Paul is saying how is it then that you cannot conduct the order of worship service and everybody is trying to out do each other when you gather, and giving a word, or everyone has a songs or a tongue... but you cannot be in order in matters of worship. That's the point of what Paul is speaking here in these passages. He is correcting them and blaming them and confronting with their faults of being out of ORDER in true worship, and disorder in their worship service, and their need to cut down on the confusion during worship service when they are gathered.
i HAVE SAID THIS BEFORE. But isnt it legalistic to say that we must conduct church services a little bit legalistic???
I doont think it matters as long as God is gloryfied, I say this and maybe its hipocrytical to sday that I still think the rocky type bands are icky and dont belong in churchbecause we are not to be conforming the church to the world but should be doing our best to convert this lost world into the church!
I think we should be striving to be different and pecular people! But insisting thatr individual worship services should be conducted any certain way is legalisitc and this includes suggesting that we are to cunduct church exactly like the 1st century church did, we are not in the first century anymore the church has grown some individual church families are really large and that is a blessing from ther Lord however it is not conducive to spontaniously breaqking out in songs the Lord is in charge of his church certainy and therfor its his to grow in anyway in which he sees fit and no where in scripture does it say this is the way it is and this is how it must always be, we are not the freemasons who must have specific seremonial meetings where they do things a cetain way, we are not witches stirring up spells that have to be done in a cerain order so whats the problem with it???
BTW, if you READ the whole chapter of I Cprinthians 14, you will find that the very order and leadership in worship you and the author of this artcile are trying to denounce, is the very thing Paul is ESTABLISHING IN THE CHRUCH.
God is a God of ORDER AND WHERE THERE IS DISORDER AND CONFUSION GOD IS NOT IN THE MIX!
Paul is teaching them ORDER, as the passage states, everybody can't have a song, or a word, or a tongue, or a prophecy, somebody has to lead and others keep silent and not try to out do each other. READ the chapter, Paul establishes the order of worship service under leadership.
Elisha, First and foremost, before I begin to address your responses,I want to say that I do appreciate your honesty and love of your family in Christ. The way that you describe them makes it seem a lot of like how my first family in Christ was before I came back to Chicago. It too, was a small congregation and very close nit. That type of intimacy within a group is what led me to further study of how the actual meetings were before Constentine's day and led me to notice the differences and major damages that the church as a whole has developed today because of it. The separation of denominations is one of them, to be honest, but that is another issue. With that I also will continue to note and commend at your passion for the truth and your unwavering ability to keep an open child like mind, search for the truth, and speak it thoroughly. You may not always have worded yourself properly but your heart is still evident within your posts.
Now, on your big church example, I understand and that is a completely corporate church gathering you see today in most churches. The fact that there is a same band of leaders who choose songs for people to sing is what I am getting at. That is completely man led. Even the songs, which may be "traditional" hymns are still modern music as far as our culture in the States. The fact that these hymns are sung is not a sin or nor have is implied such a thing regardless of who may say i have. It's the limiting of the BODY OF CHRIST FUNCTIONING BY CHRIST'S SPIRIT that happens. See, we tend to "think (because we are LED to BELIEVE THIS BY A MAN WITH A FALLEN SIN NATURE in Christ)" that these Spirit indwelled believers will all create a chaotic event and suddenly ruin everything!
That mindset has been instilled in the minds of every believer in Christ since the time of Constentine and has become common unchallenged and a silently HERETICAL DOCTRINE of The Holy Spirit being incapable of bringing about any sort of peaceful leading and indwelling of a gathered people of Christ.
The stark reality of it is that because believers aren't equipped with this knowledge they are clueless and don't pay attention to the times that when they are on the outside and overhear a person they don't know speaking of Christ, they suddenly get this feeling of familiarity and want to rejoice with that person. Why is it? Because the same Spirit is communing with and in them. That same Spirit will lead the spontaneous singer into song and the surrounding believers to gleefully JOIN IN ON IT. After all, It is the Spirit that searches and knows what it aught to say, correct?
Now, I dare not say that we in Christ are pagans or are committing idolatry any more than the way that God doesn't work through pagan holidays because if that was the case then we in Christ shouldn't be sitting on chairs because Pagans made them. lol But I do see the modern structure of the gatherings as more of an effective tool to WITNESS AND PREACH Christ crucified to the non-believer because it uses all of the pagan concepts in nothing but a chance to captivate an audience for the span of an hour. But for the believer in Christ there is, and should be a more intimately SCRIPTURAL WAY OF GATHERING AS IT IS PRESENTED IN THE NEW TESTAMENT.
How you may ask? Well, Your description of your small family in Christ for example. Notice how you said that EVERYONE has an input? That is the New Testament example. Paul says EVERYONE should contribute at a gathering at the time TO EDIFY ONE ANOTHER AND TO BE ACTIVE FUNCTIONING MINISTERING PARTS OF THE BODY ONE TO ANOTHER. They need not study for a given event or study because God will work through His believers when given the chance. Sure there is an order to follow but that order is VIVIDLY GIVEN IN SCRIPTURE FOR ALL TO MIRROR AND ADHERE TO. If you look into it, and I challenge you to do so, you will see that the modern gatherings that the structured church has today DOES NOT FIT INTO THE NEW TESTAMENT MODEL.
My last comment on your small family in Christ is that the pastor, and you all also, need to ENCOURAGE EACH OTHER INTO SHARING MORE AND BEING CONFIDENT THAT CHRIST IS DOING IT THROUGH YOU ALL because His Spirit is EXCEEDINGLY FAR TOO RICH FOR JUST ONE PERSON (A SMALL PART OF THE BODY) TO EMULATE HIS FULLNESS TO EVERYONE FOR EVERYONE'S SAKE.
