Author	Thread: Question for the brethren:
Agapeton View Profile History	Question for the brethren: Posted : 27 Jul, 2012 04:50 PM I am having a discussion with a fellow brother in Christ who says that a pastor should get paid for the work he does. Problem is that he can't find a verse to show it, nor his pastoral role for that matter. Can anyone of you, if you would be so kind, to please list a pastor's job description and reason for pay from the Word please? Thanks for your comments in advance and may the Lord Jesus be constantly in your hearts as well as your words. Post Reply
View Profile History	Question for the brethren: Posted : 31 Jul, 2012 09:32 AM Some very good points have been brought up in here. This thread has caused me to want to dig deeper into this issue. Just telling everyone they are wrong is not sufficient for me. I want to be able to give real answers. Agapeton deserves real answers to his questions. You are wasting his time to continue telling him he is wrong because he is wrong. Either bring something of substance to the table or leave the talking to the people who want to study, learn, and grow. Post Reply
View Profile History	Question for the brethren: Posted : 31 Jul, 2012 08:50 PM phillipjohn said "If you can not find a role for a pastor you are blinded", and HoldingOutHope said "Agapeton deserves real answers to his questions." Thanks guys, I just realised that I said nothing about the picture of pastoring/eldership that the Bible gives me either. Sorry! Some friends and I looked at Titus for a few days a while ago, and I'll share chapter 1:5-9 now (snipe!): "The reason I left you in Crete was that you might put in order what was left unfinished and appoint elders in every town, as I directed you. An elder must be blameless, faithful to his wife, a man whose children believe and are not open to the charge of being wild and disobedient. Since an overseer manages God�s household, he must be blameless�not overbearing, not quick-tempered, not given to drunkenness, not violent, not pursuing dishonest gain. Rather, he must be hospitable, one who loves what is good, who is self-controlled, upright, holy and disciplined. He must hold firmly to the trustworthy message as it has been taught, so that he can encourage others by sound doctrine and refute those who oppose it." [ Neither word translated as "elder" or "overseer" here is the same as the Ephesians 4:11 "pastor" word. But I don't think it makes a big difference >:-) ] I hear from this bit of Titus that an elder is a well-practicing Christian, managing in God's household. It seems that Titus was to look for the guys who were already doing this, and appoint them to keep doing what they were doing. Managing in God's household, I'd say, depends on the situation. Yet surely it involves bearing responsibility for others' spiritual welfare, as approved by God. Something we should all aspire to be ready for, eh? (1 Corinthians 12:31 - well, the whole chapter - gender roles aside.) That's why I think pastoring ideally belongs to the church body, rather than the paid employee. Post Reply
Agapeton View Profile History	Question for the brethren: Posted : 1 Aug, 2012 08:18 AM very good points brothers. thanks for your help. brother blood, great stuff! one thing that I know and will share is that the word elder is presbuteros the simplest definition of it is acts 2:17 as old men. the overseer is episcopos. in ancient times, men would give honor to elders and consider them an authority on the past by way of experience, knowledge, and historical reference. usually the Jews would pick men of good repute to be an elder but they really had no major "roles" or authority. I can see the elder idea. even peter called himself one. ironically, the letter written where he calls himself that, he is roughly in his 50s . So an elder sounds right to me, but elders were appointed in the plural sense by Paul. so there is no single leadership role anywhere. by the way, what do the ones who go into school to train for the pastor role learn since there really is no job description for them from the scriptures. plus the young unmarried pastor, or the young married with toddlers, idea isn't scriptural either from my search. then comes the real big crutch. the "preaching". I don't see any form of it in the Scriptures. thank you brothers. I'm learning a lot in Christ from you whether you ramble or not. may the Lord continue to guide and keep you. Post Reply
View Profile History	Question for the brethren: Posted : 1 Aug, 2012 02:38 PM I came across this article today as I was searching. It had some good points to ponder(at least I thought so) http://www.quodlibet.net/articles/schooley-pastor.shtml Post Reply
Agapeton View Profile History	Question for the brethren: Posted : 1 Aug, 2012 05:08 PM Thanks, brother Hope. I am reading it, but it seems loaded with conjecture because it already supposes that shepherds are considered as leaders. The thing that has been ringing in my view is that if we consider a shepherd (The one that the article discounted, by the way.) does not lead sheep at all. See, I grew up in Italy. My father was a butcher and worked out of our home. We had sheep and often took them out. The sheep knew where to go out on the path. They knew where to eat and knew when to return to the stable. All we did was walk with them and make sure that none strayed. With that being said, the shepherd really doesn't lead the flock anywhere. So the idea of a pastor being a min leader of the sheep still doesn't make sense. Even the word of episkopon for overseer is thought of as a leadership role within that article. the word episkope means to be attentive to an outcome, or situation (that only God can redeem, rectify, and rescue from), to be aware, or mindful, inspection. The word is best described in Luke 19:44 by way of Christ's "visitation". So this article is a bit on the pro-pastor side of the street. Ironically, i noted that the article calls the episkopate an "office", which to be honest with you, the word "office" was added in by translators who were already used to the hierarchy ideology by the time in 1 timothy 3:1. In fact even the modern translations still use this ideology. And what is worse is that the article goes into the "deaconate" as a pastoral delegation. If you actually research the words mentioned (diakonion, episkopoi, and presbuteros), you'll see a different picture than the article speaks of. Plus, I read the Koine Greek and noticed one little anomaly some time ago about the 1 Timothy 3 chapter. Starting from verse 8 on it describes the deacon's/servant's qualifications assuming that it is only a masculine gendered role when the text literally DOES NOT IMPLY THIS. Here, I'll show post the verses and then explain my point with a perfect example of this. 1Ti 3:8-13 ESV Deacons likewise must be dignified, not double-tongued, not addicted to much wine, not greedy for dishonest gain. 9 They must hold the mystery of the faith with a clear conscience. 10 And let them also be tested first; then let them serve as deacons if they prove themselves blameless.11 THEIR WIVES LIKEWISE must be dignified, not slanderers, but sober-minded, faithful in all things. 12 Let deacons each be the husband of one wife, managing their children and their own households well. 13 For those who serve well as deacons gain a good standing for themselves and also great confidence in the faith that is in Christ Jesus. OK. Now pay attention to verse 11 and ask yourself; WHY does the WIFE of the deacon have to be considered part of this qualification for deacons and NOT for overseers and elders? Isn't that a bit odd? Well, here is the explanation with proof of it to show for it. There is a small "interpretive" anomaly in the translation that has been influenced to change a wording in the actual Greek to a DEACON'S WIFE INSTEAD OF A "DEACON WIFE" OR "DEACON WOMAN" and thereby limiting the "role" to man appointed instead of an equally shared one. How so you ask? Well the word used in verse 11 for the woman or wife is gunai. The word literally means woman or wife. There is no diakonos in that verse at all. So when read in the Greek, verse 11 actually includes WOMEN AS DEACONS with the basic application of LIKEWISE, or SIMILARLY (Greek word husahtoes) added on to gunai. In simple terms it says WOMEN ALSO, OR WIVES ALSO but NOT ONCE DOES THE GREEK PRESENT THAT THE WOMAN/WIFE (GUNAI) IS A SPOUSE OF THE DEACON MENTIONED IN VERSE 8. This was done by the translators because they were influenced by the men only leadership role ideals. How do we know this? Simple! Because the very same word of diakonon is used in reference to Phoebe by Paul in Romans 16:1. How did the translators interpret the word when it came to a woman who worked side by side with Paul as patron. (Rom. 16:2 "prostatis" is a word that the Greeks used to one who "presided over" an assembly.) Now look at the 1 Tim 3:8-11 in the 1889 Darby translation and pay attention to verse 11. 1Ti 3:8 Ministers, in like manner, grave, not double-tongued, not given to much wine, not seeking gain by base means, 9 holding the mystery of the faith in a pure conscience. 10 And let these be first proved, then let them minister, being without charge against them . 11 The women in like manner grave, not slanderers, sober, faithful in all things. So could this just be that the deacons are US? Could it possibly be that the role of Stephen in Acts 6 is what we should all be aspired to be since he was chosen to deacon/serve tables (Acts 6:2)? Any thoughts, brothers? Post Reply
Agapeton View Profile History	Question for the brethren: Posted : 1 Aug, 2012 05:11 PM Oh, by the way. The best definition of the word daikoneo is to wait upon, to serve. Best description and definition of the word is used in Mark 10:44-45 and 1 Peter 4:10-11 by SERVE. Thanks for your comments, brothers. Post Reply
View Profile History	Question for the brethren: Posted : 1 Aug, 2012 05:55 PM Thanks for your response brother. Just to clarify and it's not likely needed, but I didn't mean to post the article as the definitive answer on the issue. I'm learning as I go on this topic as I haven't studied it much. Post Reply
Agapeton View Profile History	Question for the brethren: Posted : 1 Aug, 2012 06:57 PM I figured you didn't, brother Hope. Thank you for posting it either way, because I too, am still learning. And information is something that I never turn down on any matter regarding Scripture. I was just sharing what I thought on the article. If it seemed as if I was talking you down in anyway, then by all means, please take my most sincerest apology. Because it was not my intent at all. I see, and know that you are one who seeks the Lord in all His truth and offer up what you learned in Him along the way and that is an admirable trait brother. I thank you for it. It is a pleasure to have like minded brothers such as you and brother bloodnok to contribute what you have learned along the way. It is a blessing to the Lord Jesus first, and to me second. Thank you gentlemen for showing how we are to teach and admonish one another in the Lord by the sharing of our mutual knowledge that the Lord gives us so that we can fully form the Lord Jesus amongst us. Post Reply
View Profile History	Question for the brethren: Posted : 2 Aug, 2012 02:50 AM Not at all. I didn't feel like you were talking down to me. Thanks for the kind words. I'm up early so I can study more about this topic! Post Reply
View Profile History	Question for the brethren: Posted : 2 Aug, 2012 02:50 AM Not at all. I didn't feel like you were talking down to me. Thanks for the kind words. I'm up early so I can study more about this topic! Post Reply

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