Thread: Answering Archimedes claims about Calvinism/atonement
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Answering Archimedes claims about Calvinism/atonement
Posted : 28 Aug, 2011 06:28 PM
I have asked Archimedes to drop the "Calvin made it up"routine more than once, but now it seems it is his favorite trick.
Here is what he said today:
"Calvin not only Wrote about his New Gospel of T.U.L.I.P. � but he also Taught it and PREACHED IT! No One�s Misinterpreting Calvin. T.U.L.I.P. is Calvin�s New Gospel�it�s his Baby�his Theology."
Got that? It is a "New" Gospel. Now for those who are interested in Church history, the Reformers would not even listen to your interpretation of Scripture UNLESS you could show your beliefs from the writings of the Early church fathers.
Since I have told Arch to drop it, and he won't, here is my promised response to him about showing quotes by the Early church fathers.
I realize that some on here are not looking for the truth, but I think some of you are, so here are a few quotes by the Early church fathers that show that they believed that Jesus died for the elect, and NOT everyone who ever lived.
This way, the next time Arch claims "Calvin made it all up", you will know that Christians in the Early church believed the same thing over a THOUSAND YEARS BEFORE Calvin was born.
The following is a list of several patristic quotations (previously posted at the link) that relate to the topic of the atonement. Some affirm limited atonement, some are simply germane to the topic of the atonement without necessarily affirming limited atonement. The last two show that interpreting 1 John 2:1-2 the way that Calvin did was not new to Calvin.
This is by no means an exhaustive list, and it is not intended to be a representative list. There are a lot of odd statements by the church fathers on the atonement, and a lot of strange theories that some of them adopted. Also, just because they adopted a view of limited atonement (in the sense of understanding that Christ was offered to bear the sins of the elect or in that he redeemed the elect in particular) does not mean that they held to a thoroughly "Calvinist" (what an anachronism to call it that!) understanding of TULIP. This, therefore, provides some patristic views of the atonement.
Ambrose (c. 339-97): Although Christ suffered for all, yet He suffered for us particularly, because He suffered for the Church. Saint Ambrose of Milan, Exposition of the Holy Gospel according to Saint Luke, trans. Theodosia Tomkinson (Etna: Center for Traditionalist Orthodox Studies, 1998), Book VI, �25, p. 201.
PL 15:1675.
Ambrose (c. 339-97): Great, therefore, is the mystery of Christ, before which even angels stood amazed and bewildered. For this cause, then, it is thy duty to worship Him, and, being a servant, thou oughtest not to detract from thy Lord. Ignorance thou mayest not plead, for to this end He came down, that thou mayest believe; if thou believest not, He has not come down for thee, has not suffered for thee. "If I had not come," saith the Scripture, "and spoken with them, they would have no sin: but now have they no excuse for their sin. He that hateth Me, hateth My Father also." Who, then, hates Christ, if not he who speaks to His dishonor? -- for as it is love's part to render, so it is hate's to withdraw honor. He who hates, calls in question; he who loves, pays reverence. NPNF2: Vol.: Volume X, Of the Christian Faith, Book IV, Chapter 2, �27.
Ambrosiaster: The people of God hath its own fulness. In the elect and foreknown, distinguished from the generality of all, there is accounted a certain special universality; so that the whole world seems to be delivered from the whole world, and all men to be taken out of all men. See Works of John Owen, Vol. 10, p. 423.
PL 17:1084.
Jerome (347-420) on Matthew 20:28: He does not say that he gave his life for all, but for many, that is, for all those who would believe. See Turretin, Vol. 2, p. 462.
PL 26:144-145.
Hilary of Arles (c. 401-449) commenting on 1 John 2:2: When John says that Christ died for the sins of the "whole world," what he means is that he died for the whole church. Introductory Commentary on 1 John. Gerald Bray, ed., Ancient Christian Commentary on Scripture: New Testament, Vol. XI, James, 1-2 Peter, 1-3 John, Jude (Downers Grove: InterVarsity Press, 2000), p. 177.
Cap. II, v. 2, PL Supp. 3:118.
Augustine (354-430): 2. But alongside of this love we ought also patiently to endure the hatred of the world. For it must of necessity hate those whom it perceives recoiling from that which is loved by itself. But the Lord supplies us with special consolation from His own case, when, after saying, "These things I command you, that ye love one another," He added, "If the world hate you, know that it hated me before [it hated] you." Why then should the member exalt itself above the head? Thou refusest to be in the body if thou art unwilling to endure the hatred of the world along with the Head. "If ye were of the world," He says, "the world would love its own." He says this, of course, of the whole Church, which, by itself, He frequently also calls by the name of the world: as when it is said, "God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto Himself." And this also: "The Son of man came not to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved." And John says in his epistle: "We have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous: and He is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also [for those] of the whole world." The whole world then is the Church, and yet the whole world hateth the Church. The world therefore hateth the world, the hostile that which is reconciled, the condemned that which is saved, the polluted that which is cleansed.
3. But that world which God is in Christ reconciling unto Himself, which is saved by Christ, and has all its sins freely pardoned by Christ, has been chosen out of the world that is hostile, condemned, and defiled. For out of that mass, which has all perished in Adam, are formed the vessels of mercy, whereof that world of reconciliation is composed, that is hated by the world which belongeth to the vessels of wrath that are formed out of the same mass and fitted to destruction. Finally, after saying, "If ye were of the world, the world would love its own," He immediately added, "But because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you." And so these men were themselves also of that world, and, that they might no longer be of it, were chosen out of it, through no merit of their own, for no good works of theirs had preceded; and not by nature, which through free-will had become totally corrupted at its source: but gratuitously, that is, of actual grace. For He who chose the world out of the world, effected for Himself, instead of finding, what He should choose: for "there is a remnant saved according to the election of grace. And if by grace," he adds, "then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace." NPNF1: Vol. VII, Tractates on John, Tractate LXXXVII, �2-3, John 15:17-19.
Augustine (354-430): Hence things that are lawful are not all good, but everything unlawful is not good. Just as everyone redeemed by Christ's blood is a human being, but human beings are not all redeemed by Christ's blood, so too everything that is unlawful is not good, but things that are not good are not all unlawful. As we learn from the testimony of the apostle, there are some things that are lawful but are not good. John E. Rotelle, O.S.A., ed., Works of Saint Augustine, Adulterous Marriages, Part 1, Vol. 9, trans. Ray Kearney, O.P., Book One, 15, 16 (Hyde Park: New City Press, 1999), p. 153.
Chrysostom (349-407) on Hebrews 9:28. "So Christ was once offered.": By whom offered? evidently by Himself. Here he says that He is not Priest only, but Victim also, and what is sacrificed. On this account are [the words] "was offered." "Was once offered" (he says) "to bear the sins of many." Why "of many," and not "of all"? Because not all believed, For He died indeed for all, that is His part: for that death was a counterbalance against the destruction of all men. But He did not bear the sins of all men, because they were not willing. NPNF1: Vol. XIV, Epistle to the Hebrews, Homly 17.
Prosper of Aquitaine (d. 463): He is not crucified with Christ who is not a member of the body of Christ. When, therefore, our Saviour is said to be crucified for the redemption of the whole world, because of his true assumption of the human nature, yet may he be said to be crucified only for them unto whom his death was profitable. . . . Diverse from these is their lot who are reckoned amongst them of whom is is said, 'the world knew him not.'
PL 51:165.
Prosper of Aquitaine (d. 463): Doubtless the propriety of redemption is theirs from whom the prince of this world is cast out. The death of Christ is not to be so laid out for human-kind, that they also should belong unto his redemption who were not to be regenerated.
PL 51:178.
Theodoret of Cyrrhus (393-466) commenting on Hebrews 9:27-28: As it is appointed for each human being to die once, and the one who accepts death's decree no longer sins but awaits the examination of what was done in life, so Christ the Lord, after being offered once for us and taking up our sins, will come to us again, with sin no longer in force, that is, with sin no longer occupying a place as far as human beings are concerned. He said himself, remember, when he still had a mortal body, "He committed no sin, nor was guile found in his mouth." It should be noted, of course, that he bore the sins of many, not of all: not all came to faith, so he removed the sins of the believers only. Robert Charles Hill, Theodoret of Cyrus: Commentary on the Letters of St. Paul, Vol. 2 (Brookline: Holy Cross Orthodox Press, 2001), p. 175.
Bede (672/673-735) commenting on 1 John 2:1: The Lord intercedes for us not by words but by his dying compassion, because he took upon himself the sins which he was unwilling to condemn his elect for. On 1 John. Gerald Bray, ed., Ancient Christian Commentary on Scripture: New Testament, Vol. XI, James, 1-2 Peter, 1-3 John, Jude (Downers Grove: InterVarsity Press, 2000), p. 177.
Latin text: PL 93:89.
Bede (672/673-735) commenting on 1 John 2:2: In his humanity Christ pleads for our sins before the Father, but in his divinity he has propitiated them for us with the Father. Furthermore, he has not done this only for those who were alive at the time of his death, but also for the whole church which is scattered over the full compass of the world, and it will be valid for everyone, from the very first among the elect until the last one who will be born at the end of time. This verse is therefore a rebuke to the Donatists, who thought that the true church was to be found only in Africa. The Lord pleads for the sins of the whole world, because the church which he has bought with his blood exists in every corner of the globe. On 1 John. Gerald Bray, ed., Ancient Christian Commentary on Scripture: New Testament, Vol. XI, James, 1-2 Peter, 1-3 John, Jude (Downers Grove: InterVarsity Press, 2000), p. 178.
Answering Archimedes claims about Calvinism/atonement
Posted : 28 Aug, 2011 06:51 PM
Of course James that is correct Calvinism is a new Gospel but it is not of good news, it is another Gospel that Jesus warned us about, do not believe it. Arch did not come up with that statement Jesus did.
Answering Archimedes claims about Calvinism/atonement
Posted : 28 Aug, 2011 07:16 PM
STOP!!!!!
James,
You are INCREDIBLE and LAUGHABLE�with your PATHETIC�CHILDISH�DELUDED Attempts to Discredit me and Promote your NEW GOSPEL!
Yes�some of The Church Fathers had Erroneous Ideas�but when they were Corrected by Councils�they Stood in OBEDIENCE of The Church and REPENTED!
As for these Quotes�they are Laughable�LUDCRIOUS � that any Christian church would actually use them to Promote Calvinism.
Take Ambrose�s Quote. Ambrose was Speaking of The Church.
(St. Ambrose�s Words) �Although Christ suffered for all, yet He suffered for us particularly, because He suffered for the Church.� (end)
You�re more of a Delusional person than I Originally thought you were if you really think that he is speaking of �Limited Atonement�?
Christ SUFFERED for ALL. He Suffered so that All Mankind Might Be SAVED. Yet�not All Mankind Accepted His Sacrifice and became Saved.
So to those that DID Accept Christ�s SUFFERING�that DID Accept Jesus� Sacrifice. To Those His Suffering was PERSONAL! To Those Christ�s Suffering was�
PARTICULAR!
Those Christians were in The Church�James!
That is What Saint Ambrose was Referring to in that Quote. It Amazes me that you Really Think that We on this Forum are so Simple Minded that we would �fall� for a ruse like this?
The next few Quotes are even �WORST�! You have to �hold them up to the light�just right�and at a certain angle�. And even then you have to
�twist them�just so�and dim the lights a bit more�
And then you have to �put on these Special Calvinist 3D Glasses��
And even after all of that Effort�they still do not Speak to �Limited Atonement�.
You INSULT my Intellegence and of those on this Forum and you should Appologize to this Forum.
We present Valid Perspectives�either backed with Scripture or with LUCID LOGIC or Philosophy or Clear Plain Facts.
You�James�employ �Smoke and Mirrors� and �Deception� and �Outright Lies� in an effort to bolster your New Gospel. I suggest you just STOP�and I will Leave it Alone�unless you bring it up.
Answering Archimedes claims about Calvinism/atonement
Posted : 28 Aug, 2011 07:35 PM
Arch said:
"Yes�some of The Church Fathers had Erroneous Ideas�but when they were Corrected by Councils�they Stood in OBEDIENCE of The Church and REPENTED!"
James replies:
Yes, church councils were called to deal with heresy, and it is good to think of church councils as a type of church court, where very important questions were decided upon.
That being said, Arch.....perhaps you could enlighten us on which church council said that Jesus died for everyone?
Answering Archimedes claims about Calvinism/atonement
Posted : 28 Aug, 2011 07:39 PM
And what does God say about atonement?...
Romans 5:6 You see, at just the right time, when we were still powerless, Christ died for the ungodly. 7 Very rarely will anyone die for a righteous person, though for a good person someone might possibly dare to die. 8 But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.
9 Since we have now been justified by his blood, how much more shall we be saved from God’s wrath through him! 10 For if, while we were God’s enemies, we were reconciled to him through the death of his Son, how much more, having been reconciled, shall we be saved through his life! 11 Not only is this so, but we also boast in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation (which only means atonement).
So, what does atonement mean?...
Definition of atonement:To cover,or cancel, satisfactory reparation for sin offense or injury; that which produces RECONCILIATION. In the Bible it means the covering of man's sins through shedding of blood, the blood of man's Redeemer, Jesus Christ who died onthe cross.
Answering Archimedes claims about Calvinism/atonement
Posted : 28 Aug, 2011 08:09 PM
Well, Arch just doubled down on his dishonesty with the "Calvin made it all up" routine, so guess what?
That's Right, even MORE Quotes by the early church fathers concerning WHO Jesus died for.
I think some of these quotes are clearer and shorter so that might help a bit also.
Did anyone hold to the doctrine of Particular Redemption before Calvin's day?
The following quotes will serve to show that particular redemption was not a doctrine invented by the Reformed community. It has been articulated by a respectable number of theologians at various times in church history as they have weighed the Scriptural material on the subject, although it was best articulated by Calvinist theologians. (Not all these quotes indicate direct support for this doctrine by the individuals cited, but rather, through the use of these citations it is hoped that the development of the doctrine of particular redemption throughout church history can be more clearly seen).
Irenaeus (A.D. 180) An Interpretation of the word "all" in 1Tim 2:6
"He came to save all, all, I say, who through him are born again unto God, infants, and little ones, and children, and young men, and old men....Jesus is the savior of them that believe; but the Lord of them that believe not." (Horton, Putting Amazing Back Into Grace, p. 291-292).
Cyprian (A.D. 250)
All the sheep which Christ hath sought up by His blood and sufferings are saved...Whosoever shall be found in the blood, and with the mark of Christ shall only escape...He redeemed the believers with the price of His own blood...Let him be afraid to die who is not reckoned to have any part in the cross and sufferings of Christ. (Horton, Putting Amazing Back Into Grace, p. 292).
Eusebius (A.D. 330) In response to "He gave himself up for us all"
To what "us" does he refer, unless to them that believe in Him? For to them that do not believe in Him, He is the author of their fire and burning. The cause of Christ's coming is the redemption of those that were to be saved by him. (Horton, Putting Amazing Back Into Grace, p. 292).
Ambrose (A.D. 380)
Can He condemn thee, whom He hath redeemed from death, for whom He offered Himself, whose life He knows is the reward of His own death? (Horton, Putting Amazing Back Into Grace, p. 293).
Epiphanius (A.D. 390) In a debate with certain Pagans who did not believe...
...Thou art not of the number of them who were bought with blood, O Manes, because thou deniest the blood...He gave his life for His own sheep. (Horton, Putting Amazing Back Into Grace, p. 293-294).
Hieronymus (Jerome) A.D. 390
Christ is sacrificed for the salvation of believers...Not all are redeemed, for not all shall be saved, but the remnant...All those who are redeemed and delivered by Thy blood return to Zion, which Thou hast prepared for Thyself by Thine own blood...Christ came to redeem Zion with His blood. But lest we should think that all are Zion or every one in Zion is truly redeemed of the Lord, who are redeemed by the blood of Christ form the Church...He did not give His life for every man, but for many, that is, for those who would believe (Horton, Putting Amazing Back Into Grace, p. 294).
Gottschalk (A.D. 803-869)
Why did the Lord say to the Pharisees: 'You do not believe, because you are not of my sheep' (Jn. 10.26), if not because He saw them as having been predestined to eternal death, not as having been purchased for eternal life at the price of his blood.' (Tractates, 48: translated by John V. Fesko).
Anselm (A.D. 1033-1109)
If you die in unbelief, Christ did not die for you. (Horton, Putting Amazing Back Into Grace, p. 294).
Johann von Staupitz (Martin Luther's mentor, A.D.1460-1529)
"Because of His likeness to sinful flesh He could make satisfaction for sins, sin He could fast, pray give alms, and offer himself as a sacrifice to God. Each and every one of these penitential duties of all the elect the Lord imposed upon His own head" (Oberman, Forerunners of The Reformation).
"Nor should it escape you that the suffering of the Son of God is sufficient for all, though it was not for all but for many that His blood was poured out" (Oberman, Forerunners of The Reformation).
Martin Luther (A.D. 1483-1546)
We find, then, in this excellent lesson, the comforting doctrine taught that Christ is he whom we should know as the Priest and Bishop of our souls; that no sin is forgiven, nor the Holy Spirit given, by reason of works or merit on our part, but alone through the blood of Christ, and that to those for whom God has ordained it. (Sermons of Martin Luther Vol. 7, page 167-68, Baker edition).
Christ did not die for absolutely all, for he says: "This is my blood which is shed for you" (Luke 22:20) and "for many" (Mark 14:24)--he did not say: for all-- "to the remission of sins" (Matt. 26:28)." (1516, Lectures On Romans, p. 252, Westminster edition).
"'And by His knowledge He shall justify many' (Is 53). Here there is no other work of ours but that we do not reject the offered mercy but accept it by faith. And even this is a gift of the Holy Spirit, because 'not all have faith' (2 Th 3:2)." This selection, which was written in 1532, has the strong emphasis on the universal offer, but with it, a discussion of the necessity of faith in order for the offer to be applied. And this faith, which is given by grace via the Holy Spirit, is admittedly not given to all. Again, this is basically the medieval "sufficient for all, efficient for the elect" construction.
William Tyndale (A.D.1494-1536)
Christ's blood only putteth away the sins of them that are elect...We are elect through Christ's blood...Thou art elect to life everlasting by Christ's blood, whose gift and purchase is thy faith.
Charles Spurgeon (A.D. 1834-1892)
I can hear another objection--"How can you, sir, upon that theory, go to preach the Gospel unto every creature?" I could not go upon any other theory, for I dare not go on that fool's errand of preaching a redemption that might not redeem...a salvation that might not save. I could not go to a man and say, "Believe and thou shalt be saved," for the man may ask me, "Do you think you are going to be in heaven?" "Yes," I would reply. "Why?" "Because Christ died for me." "But He died for everybody so my chances are therefore just as good as yours." And after he had accepted my declaration, he might reply, "Is there any real reason why I should rejoice? Some for whom Christ died are in hell. What makes me so sure I will not go there? It is rather a faulty piece of good news, because it is nothing positive; it is a grand uncertainty you have proclaimed to me." (Horton, Putting Amazing Back Into Grace, p. 142).
Answering Archimedes claims about Calvinism/atonement
Posted : 28 Aug, 2011 08:52 PM
James,
You have Lost Your Mind!
These Quotes Speak nothing towards your New Gospel�but I see you have placed in your Thread a Quote from the Great Calvin Lover Spurgeon. I�ve been Waiting for this. You �Cry Foul� when I call what you believe
your �New Gospel�.
Well�would you cry Foul if Charles Spurgeon called it a Gospel?
"... I have my own private opinion that there is no such a thing as preaching Christ and him crucified, unless you preach what now-a-days is called Calvinism. I have my own ideas, and those I always state boldly. It is a nickname to call it Calvinism; Calvinism is the gospel, and nothing else."
(C. H. Spurgeon, The New Park Street Pulpit, Vol. 1, 1856).
Answering Archimedes claims about Calvinism/atonement
Posted : 28 Aug, 2011 09:06 PM
(your words) That being said, Arch.....perhaps you could enlighten us on which church council said that Jesus died for everyone?
Hmmmm....? (end)
James...there are none that I can think of or remember, I Believe that this is so because there
"Never was a NEED TO".
Church Councils were Convened when Doctrine was being Questioned and there was Sufficent Debating amongst those in The Church that it was necessary to call one.
Augustine was Convince by enough of his Brothers to Repent of his thinking...but I will reaserch Augustine and his belief on Predestination and Limited Atonement.
Answering Archimedes claims about Calvinism/atonement
Posted : 28 Aug, 2011 09:18 PM
Jesus Christ did die for all of us sinners.He didn't have a choice,he was tortured and hung from a tree for the sake of all humanes to be able to have the freedom of religion.
Marie.....Christian
P.S. How can you change what is written and proven facts.
Answering Archimedes claims about Calvinism/atonement
Posted : 28 Aug, 2011 09:32 PM
John 10:11, 14-16, 26-29. �I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd gives His life for the sheep.... I am the good shepherd, and I know My sheep, and am known by My own. As the Father knows Me, even so I know the Father; and I lay down My life for the sheep. And other sheep I have which are not of this fold; them also I must bring, and they will hear My voice; and there will be one flock and one shepherd.... But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep, as I said to you. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father�s hand.�
Here is a portion of Scripture from the lips of Jesus Christ Himself which explicitly teaches a particular redemption. Jesus does not lay down His life for the goats, for those who on the day of judgment are cast into the lake of fire, but only for the sheep. �It is for the sheep�only for the sheep�that the good shepherd lays down his life. The design of the atonement is definitely restricted. Jesus dies for those who have been given to him by the Father, for the children of God, for true believers. This is the teaching of the Fourth Gospel throughout (3:16; 6:37, 39, 40, 44, 65; 10:11, 15, 29; 17:6, 9, 20, 21, 24). It is also the doctrine of the rest of Scripture. With his precious blood Christ purchased his church (Acts 20:28; Eph. 5:25-27); his people (Matt. 1:21); the elect (Rom. 8:32-35).�59
