What is the Hebrew writer speaking about here in this passages? Is he speaking about obeying and sub,itting to spiritual leaders OR obeying and submitting to government leaders?... OR BOTH?...
Hebrews chapter 13, Obey your leaders and submit to their authority. They keep watch over you as men who must give an account. Obey them so that their work will be a joy, not a burden, for that would be of no advantage to you. (NIV)
Considering the Spiritual leaders hAve been mentioned here: Heb. 13:�7 Remember your leaders, those who spoke to you the word of God. Consider the outcome of their way of life, and imitate their faith. 8 Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever. 9 Do not be led away by diverse and strange teachings, for it is good for the heart to be strengthened by grace, not by foods, which have not benefited those devoted to them.
The verses you referred to would have to be leaders as in government. Because they hAve to give n ccount for punishing.
15 Through him then let us continually offer up a sacrifice of praise to God, that is, the fruit of lips that acknowledge his name. 16 Do not neglect to do good and to share what you have, for such sacrifices are pleasing to God.
�17 Obey your leaders and submit to them, for they are keeping watch over your souls, as those who will have to give an account. Let them do this with joy and not with groaning, for that would be of no advantage to you.
Elisha, nothing wrong with mentors but the only spiritual leaders we should have is Christ. Notice verse 7 says to remember the ones who delivered the message and imitAte them.
There is no whre in Scripture that pastor Are to lead. They re to feed but not lead. Doesn't even say tht pastors are teachers either. It puts them in a different category too.
PJ, um God seeks those who can reason for He says, "Let us reason together."
Seriously, bro. The way you keep making remarks about people not having to use their minds in Christ is scary. It sounds as if you're saying that God wants mindless idiots to follow him.
If one cannot use his reAsoning then he cannot rightly divide the word of truth nor test all things nd hold on to that which is true.
MAy, the Lord of grant wisdom to those who ask. :peace:
Agapeton, sorry, but you HAVE NOT ANSWERED THE QUESTION... disputing this passage is not an answer. You always diagree with what is written, and can never explain what God is speaking through His writers of His Word.
SO, what is the author saying in this passage?...
I did not ask for YOUR OPINION OF WHAT YOU THINK HE IS SAYING, therefore, if you HAVE ANY spiritual revelation or insight from the Holy Spirit to do so, please address and EXPLAIN what I have posed here in this question, AS TO WHAT THE AUTHOR OF THIS LETTER IS SPEAKING ABOUT AND THE MEANING OF THIS PASSAGE. Thank you.
What is the Hebrew writer speaking about here in this passages? Is he speaking about obeying and sub,itting to spiritual leaders OR obeying and submitting to government leaders?... OR BOTH?...
Hebrews chapter 13, Obey your leaders and submit to their authority. They keep watch over you as men who must give an account. Obey them so that their work will be a joy, not a burden, for that would be of no advantage to you. (NIV)
Your defense is always you can't find a scripture that says such and such, YET YOU YOURSELF CAN'T PRODUCE ANY SCRIOTURES THAT DOES NOT SAY OTHER WISE, NOR CAN YOU EFFECTIVELY EXPLAIN WHAT THE PASAGE OR ANY PASSAGE SPIRITAULLY OUTSIDE OF SAYING ITS NTO WAHT IT MEANS...
Well Agapeton of corse we use are mind for natural and intellectual realms.
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Posted : 6 Jan, 2012 01:47 PM
PJ, um God seeks those who can reason for He says, "Let us reason together."
Seriously, bro. The way you keep making remarks about people not having to use their minds in Christ is scary. It sounds as if you're saying that God wants mindless idiots to follow him.
If one cannot use his reAsoning then he cannot rightly divide the word of truth nor test all things nd hold on to that which is true.
MAy, the Lord of grant wisdom to those who ask.
Surely you do not believe you can understand spiritual with the natural man. Surely you don't.
No man's mind can not comprehend spiritual matters, it is scary to think one believe's he can. We are instructed to lean not unto our own understanding.
I have you not ignorant my brother, you MUST LEANR TO REAAD God's Word of Truth. Why do you CONTINUE TO REFUSE TO DENY AND UNDERSTAND GOD'S WORD. Why do you contiue to KICK AGAINST THEPRICKS of God's truth?.?. Ephesians 4:7 But to each one of us grace has been given as Christ apportioned it. This is why it says: �When he ascended on high, he took many captives and gave gifts to his people.�
9 (What does �he ascended� mean except that he also descended to the lower, earthly regions? He who descended is the very one who ascended higher than all the heavens, in order to fill the whole universe.)
11 So CHRIST HIMSELF gave the apostles, the prophets, the evangelists, the pastors and teachers, to equip his people for works of service, so that the body of Christ may be built up until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God and become mature, attaining to the whole measure of the fullness of Christ. Then we will no longer be infants, tossed back and forth by the waves, and blown here and there by every wind of teaching and by the cunning and craftiness of people in their deceitful scheming. Instead, speaking the truth in love, we will grow to become in every respect the mature body of him who is the head, that is, Christ. From Christ the whole body, joined and held together by every supporting ligament, grows and builds itself up in love, as each part does its work.
Spiritual Leaders in the Local Church: Who are they? What are they to do? What are we to think of them?
by Fred G. Zaspel
Chapter 1 - The Fact of Spiritual Rulers In The Local Church
or Does anyone have spiritual authority?
The Issue - The first issue which must be clarified in approaching the subject of local church government is the question of authority. All agree that Christ is the Head and that He rules through His Word. But what about authority on the level of individual church function, teaching, and decision making? Does Christ delegate authority to anyone else? Many church groups are sure that He does not, that each man has equal authority before God by virtue of his individual priesthood. Our American spirit of democracy in the church and its "one man one vote" leaves us inclined to agree, at least in sentiment. We feel that we are answerable to God alone, and so authority over anyone in the very personal realm of the spiritual and religious is out of the question. Our beliefs and practices are matters between God and us individually, we tend to think; and in the affairs of the local church collectively, the majority rules.
But does Christ rule by majority vote? Is His will determined by popular consent? Or is it given once and for all in Holy Scripture to be faithfully ministered to His people by spiritual leaders within the church? These questions state the issue clearly.
The Evidence - The New Testament is clear in its teaching both by precept and example that there are certain men in the church who are invested with the responsibility of ruling. Christians are not blindly to accept false or unscriptural leadership, but they are nonetheless responsible to follow, obey, and honor their spiritual leaders.
This authority was first vested in Christ's apostles. They were the foundation of the church (Ephesians 2:20; cf. Matthew 16:18-19) and the very mouthpieces of God (Ephesians 3:5). Their word and example were and are binding (I Corinthians 4:17; 14:37; I Thessalonians 2:13; II Thessalonians 2:15). Their word settled all disputes in matters of faith and practice. They were Divine Legates, vicars of Christ, if you will. This is seen in Acts 6:1-7, when the apostles took charge to settle the first dispute in the church at Jerusalem, and throughout the epistles in their binding and authoritative commands to the churches.
That the apostles intended for others after them to have authority (albeit, not their unique apostolic authority) is evident by the titles given to these leaders, the descriptions of them, and the responsibilities laid upon them and given to the church with regards to them.
*Acts 20:28 designates the elders of the church at Ephesus as "overseers," those who manage the church.
*Romans 12:8 identifies those who are specially gifted by God to govern.
*The Greek word proistemi ("to rule, to preside") is found also in I Thessalonians 5:12 referring to those who are "over you" in the spiritual realm, "in the Lord." In I Timothy 3:4, 5, and 12 it refers to rule in the home by the father. Paul plainly states that some are gifted with the ability to exercise authority in the church.
*Similarly, I Corinthians 12:28 speaks of the one with the gift of "governments" (kubernesis). A "governor" (kubernetes) was a shipmaster, the one ruling, directing the ship (Acts 27:11; Revelation 18:17).
*I Corinthians 16:15-16 commands that certain ones in the church be the objects of submission.
*I Thessalonians 5:12-13 require that those in ruling positions ("those who are over you") in the church be held in special honor.
*I Timothy 3:5 draws a parallel between the fathers' "rule" in the home and the elders' "care" of the church. The implication here is that the elders' rule in the church is similar to a father's rule of his home.
*I Timothy 5:17 commands that double honor be given to those who "rule" well.
* Hebrews 13:7, 17, and 24 all speak of rulers in the church who are to be "regarded with favor," "followed" in matters of faith, "obeyed," and "submitted to." These men "rule" and are responsible for the spiritual welfare of the people. The writer of Hebrews is especially firm in this matter, for in all three of these verses the word translated "rule" is hegeomai, which speaks of "governing" from a position of recognized authority (cf. Matthew 2:6, 10:18; Luke 2:2; Acts 7:10).
Some object that spiritual authority is inconsistent with individual priest-hood. It is significant, however, that while no New Testament epistle emphasizes more the truth of individual priesthood, neither does any epistle stress more the obligation to obey spiritual rulers. The author of Hebrews saw no inconsistency. The doctrine of universal priesthood does not conflict with the duty of subjection to spiritual authority. Individual priesthood is not individual lordship.
*Finally, I Peter 5:1-4 speaks of those who lead and oversee the church as under-shepherds (i.e., delegated rulers under Christ). Also, by referring to himself as an "elder" of the church, Peter indicates here that the apostolic authority was in measure being passed to the eldership.
Conclusion - The point is simple: there are to be those in the local church who have authority, to whom honor, submission, and obedience is due. This is not a popular teaching in our day of individualism; indeed, this is regularly vigorously opposed or ignored altogether. But the Scriptural teaching on the subject is plain: Christ, the Head, rules His Church through His under-shepherds.
Nor is this a continuation of the erroneous sharp distinction between clergy and laity. Authority does not imply superior standing before God. Just as man and woman are on equal standing before God (Galatians 3:28) with woman being subordinate to the man (I Timothy 2:9-15), so Christians with equal access to God are commanded to be subordinate to their leaders.
An Observation - One observation concerning the contemporary idea of democratic rule in the local church deserves mention at this point. It is both Scripturally and logically impossible to speak of pastoral rule and democratic rule. The two simply cannot co-exist; they are mutually exclusive. The teaching of church democracy will be challenged at various points throughout this book, but for now it will suffice to say that if God has given authority to a select group of people, then by the nature of the case the authority cannot reside in the hands of the majority. Moreover, in a system of "one man one vote" no person has any more real authority than anyone else; all share it equally. This chapter has demonstrated that the New Testament writers speak clearly and forcefully of authority given to certain people above others. It is evident that this eliminates the idea that authority is spread out evenly over all. Democracy may be good in the arena of national politics, but it is never given to the Church. No other form of church government is stated in the New Testament than that Christ rules His Church through His appointed leaders.
Chapter 2 - The Identity of Spiritual Rulers In The Local Church or Who is to have this rule and authority?
We have seen that there are to be those in the local church who are in a position of spiritual authority, ruling and guiding the church. The next step is to identify these rulers. Who in the local church is given this authority?
Their Titles
Elders - The most common designation is the term "elder." The Greek word is presbuteros, whence comes the words "presbyter" and "Presbyterian." A "presbyter" is an elder. Spoken of in the plural ("elders") they are "the presbytery" (I Timothy 4:14). The word means, obviously, "an older man" but was used as a title for the leaders of the synagogue, whose duty it was to rule and teach. The early church evidently borrowed the title to describe those in the local churches who were likewise to rule and teach. In I Timothy 5:17 the elders are the "rulers" who by virtue of their position and work deserve double honor. That apostles had absolute authority in matters of faith and practice is clear, but in I Peter 5:1 the apostle Peter calls himself "also an elder" which seems to indicate that the apostles were elders when they remained in one locality (see also II John 1 where John says the same of himself). This verse further shows that the authority of the apostleship, in measure, was passed on to the elders. At any rate, the point is evident that elders have authority in the local church; they are the rulers.
Bishops - Another designation of the New Testament church rulers is "bishop" (I Timothy 3:1; Philippians 1:1). The Greek word is episkopos, hence the English "episcopal." The word means "overseer" (Acts 20:28), "guardian," or "manager." A bishop was a foreman, one in charge, a manager. When the Consul (president, emperor) of Rome placed a ruler in a newly captured land, that ruler was often referred to as an episkopos. Again the point is simply that the Biblical terminology itself indicates that there are in the local church certain men given special authority. These men are "bishops," those who "oversee" or "manage" the church's affairs.
Pastors - The term "pastor" is the most common word in our vocabulary today, but it is (perhaps surprisingly) the least common designation in the New Testament. The New Testament writers only once identify the local church leaders as "pastors" and that as it is associated with the additional title, "teachers" (Ephesians 4:11, "pastors-teachers"). The Greek term poimen means "shepherd," one who guides the sheep. The verb form (poimaino) is used only twice, describing the duties and responsibilities of the leaders they are to "shepherd" the church (Acts 20:28 and I Peter 5:2, KJV, "feed"). In Hebrews 13:20 and I Peter 2:25 Christ is called our "Shepherd," and in Revelation 2:27 it is prophesied that Christ will "shepherd [KJV, "rule"] with a rod of iron" (see also Revelation 12:5 and 19:15). In I Peter 5:4 Jesus is "the chief Shepherd" indicating that the "elders" (verse 1) are the under-shepherds who rule under Him with a delegated authority. Clearly, then, "pastors" rule; they rule in the church under Christ. They shepherd (are not shepherded by) the sheep.
Those whom the New Testament writers describe as having spiritual authority in the local church are designated elders, bishops, and pastors. These are the men who possess authority to rule.
Their Identification - A quick glance at the passages in which these titles are found will reveal that these titles are used interchangeably to refer to the same office and the same persons.
*In Acts 20:28 the "elders" (presbuteroi, verse 17) are said to be God-appointed "bishops" (episkopoi, "overseers") and are commanded to "shepherd" (poimaino, "feed" [KJV] or "rule") the church. Notice: elders are bishops who pastor. That is to say, an elder is a bishop is a pastor.
*The qualifications for "bishops" in I Timothy 3 are virtually identical to the qualifications for "elders" in Titus 1:6-9; it is obvious that Paul had the same office in mind in both passages.
*In Titus 1:5-7 "elder" and "bishop" are synonymous also.
*Finally, in I Peter 5:1-4 the "elders" are commanded to "pastor" (poimaino; KJV, "feed") and "oversee" (episkopeo) the church.
So the three terms refer to the same persons. A bishop is an elder is a pastor. There is no distinction between them. It is just as Scripturally accurate to address your pastor as "bishop" or "elder."(!) This book will normally use the term "elder," but it must be kept in mind that whichever term is used, the reference is to the same office. A pastor is a bishop is an elder.
(Incidentally, in keeping with the common understanding of the words, the term "office" is used here to refer to these leadership positions, but it should be recognized that the New Testament never refers to these as "offices" but as "services.")
Their Descriptions - While the terms consistently refer to the same office, Bible students have often pointed out that each term emphasizes a different aspect of the man and his work. The term "elder" emphasizes the man's character, what he is mature. "Bishop" emphasizes the man's function as ruler, overseer, manager. It stresses what he does. And "pastor" emphasizes the man's work of caring, guarding, protecting, feeding, and leading. It stresses how he leads and rules and his attitude in doing it. All three terms refer to the same office but merely emphasize a different aspect of it.
An Observation - Note that elders are pastors, and elders are rulers. There is a common misunderstanding, today, that eldership is a sort of third office in which elders are a board of men with more authority than deacons but less than pastors. Elders are often viewed as representatives from the congregation, elected for a specific term and for the purpose of representing the interests of the church to the pastor and counseling him on matters of concern to the church. In many other churches the elders are a board of ruling men set over the pastor. These ideas, however, reflect a misunderstanding of the New Testament elder. Pastors are elders. Elders are pastors. As we shall later see, elders have various functions and there are differences in honor as well, but all elders are pastors, nonetheless, and they must never be considered as anything less. Furthermore, none should be considered for eldership who is not a qualified elder-bishop-pastor.
Conclusion - The New Testament teaches that authority in the local church lies in the hands of the elders-bishops-pastors. To these men both Christ and His apostles have delegated authority, and obedience to them is required by those whom they lead. Elders (bishops, pastors) are to rule as Christ's under-shepherds.
Chapter 3 - The Authority of Spiritual Rulers In The Local Church or What is the sphere of their rule?
We have seen that the elders-bishops-pastors are given authority from Christ to rule His church. These and no others are commanded to rule and to be obeyed.
It is necessary to recognize, however, that there have been errors to either side of this. Many elders have failed to exercise the authority given them in their rule while others have clearly exceeded their bounds. The next step, then, is to determine the realm or sphere of their authority. That they have authority cannot really be questioned; precisely what type of authority they possess must now be determined also.
Surveying the Evidence - Some statements specify very clearly that the elders rule in the Word. I Timothy 5:17, for example, speaks of some elders who rule particularly by "laboring in the Word and doctrine." The writer to the Hebrews commands the believers to follow the faith of their rulers (13:7). This is the idea behind Paul's command to Timothy to "reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine" (II Timothy 4:2). Elders rule in matters of doctrine, faith.
Elders are further given rule in other matters of a spiritual nature. That is, they are responsible to take the principles of the Word of God and apply them to specific matters of personal life. This is what Paul had in mind when he commanded the Thessalonian believers to regard highly those who are "over you in the Lord" (I Thessalonians 5:12). This is also the point of Hebrews 13:17 which commands believers, "obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves." The elders have authority in matters of faith and its related practice.
Finally, the New Testament extends this authority over the affairs of the church generally. This is clear from passages which speak of their "overseeing" or managing the church in general without mentioning specifics (Acts 20:28; I Peter 5:1-2). The elders are to be esteemed and held in high favor (I Thessalonians 5:12-13) and are to rule the church as they should rule their own house (I Timothy 3:4-5).
Conclusion - Elders are not given authority to tyrannically dictate in matters of no consequence. They are not authorized to give commands in trivial, non-moral matters. Neither are they permitted to demand total compliance in matters involving the Christian's liberty. Nor can their rule be followed when and if that rule is in conflict with the Word of God. Their authority is in the Word as it applies to matters of church and personal life and extends to the managing of the church in general. Therefore, the judgments of elders in regard to faith and its related practice are to be obeyed (of course, so long as such judgments are not in violation of the Word of God; cf. Acts 5:29). It would be in keeping with these principles to further give certain priority to their judgments in extra- scriptural matters of concern to the church (e.g., decisions regarding church organization, administration, etc.), although this privilege must not be abused.
Well Agapeton of corse we use are mind for natural and intellectual realms.
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Obey and Submit...
Posted : 6 Jan, 2012 01:47 PM
PJ, um God seeks those who can reason for He says, "Let us reason together."
Seriously, bro. The way you keep making remarks about people not having to use their minds in Christ is scary. It sounds as if you're saying that God wants mindless idiots to follow him.
If one cannot use his reAsoning then he cannot rightly divide the word of truth nor test all things nd hold on to that which is true.
MAy, the Lord of grant wisdom to those who ask.
Surely you do not believe you can understand spiritual with the natural man. Surely you don't.
ME: Pj, Brother, again, USE YOUR REASONING FOR ONCE. Scripture commands man to reason and the "natural man" Spoken of in Scripture (1 Cor. 2:14) is referring to THE NON BELIEVER IN THE GOSPEL OF GOD ie The Bible hating, anti-christ, atheist, humanist, anti-religion man period. So PLEASE, and I do say it again, PLEASE try to use some common sense in every post you make, bro cause you are not showing yourself to have the "mind of Christ" as we all have (1 Cro. 2:16).
I really do hope that you ask the Lord for understanding, bro, cause he gives to those who ask him.
