You bring up a good point because we should be able to give a defense for what we believe. If not, how do we know we believe it? This link may be of some assistance on the issue of pastors getting paid.
Brother PJ, thanks for you contribution. As always you have a lot to say on any given subject regarding the Word of God. So, would you know where to find them by any chance?
Brother Hope. Thank you for the site. But the same verses the site has is what my brother also showed me, but it speaks of food and not of money on a weekly salary. Here, I'll post it in the topic.
Yes, it is okay for a pastor to get paid for ministering to people. The Bible says in 1 Cor. 9:3-10,
"My defense to those who examine me is this: 4 Do we not have a right to eat and drink? 5 Do we not have a right to take along a believing wife, even as the rest of the apostles, and the brothers of the Lord, and Cephas? 6 Or do only Barnabas and I not have a right to refrain from working? 7 Who at any time serves as a soldier at his own expense? Who plants a vineyard, and does not eat the fruit of it? Or who tends a flock and does not use the milk of the flock? 8 I am not speaking these things according to human judgment, am I? Or does not the Law also say these things? 9 For it is written in the Law of Moses, "You shall not muzzle the ox while he is threshing." God is not concerned about oxen, is He? 10 Or is He speaking altogether for our sake? Yes, for our sake it was written, because the plowman ought to plow in hope, and the thresher to thresh in hope of sharing the crops."
Paul is teaching us here that those who work at something have the right to make a living from it. This is a basic and simple principle that is found in the scriptures. In 1 Tim. 5:18, Paul says, "For the Scripture says, 'You shall not muzzle the ox while he is threshing,'� and 'The laborer is worthy of his wages.'"
Clearly those who work in the ministry are allowed to make a living from the ministry. This is especially true when we realize that ministers work more than 40 hours a week and are usually on call 24 hours a day, 7 days a week. If someone says that ministers should not be paid for their labors they ignore the word of God which says that they can be paid."
ME: The thing with the text shows that they were speaking of food. Even the verses following speak of the priests partaking of the food offerings as well as the ones who were serving got food from the text. It shows no reason for money to be passed to a position to a pastor.
1Co 9:1 Am I not free? Am I not an apostle? Have I not seen Jesus our Lord? Are not you my workmanship in the Lord?
1Co 9:2 If to others I am not an apostle, at least I am to you, for you are the seal of my apostleship in the Lord.
1Co 9:3 This is my defense to those who would examine me.
1Co 9:4 Do we not have the right to eat and drink?
1Co 9:5 Do we not have the right to take along a believing wife, as do the other apostles and the brothers of the Lord and Cephas?
1Co 9:6 Or is it only Barnabas and I who have no right to refrain from working for a living?
1Co 9:7 Who serves as a soldier at his own expense? Who plants a vineyard without eating any of its fruit? Or who tends a flock without getting some of the milk?
1Co 9:8 Do I say these things on human authority? Does not the Law say the same?
1Co 9:9 For it is written in the Law of Moses, "You shall not muzzle an ox when it treads out the grain." Is it for oxen that God is concerned?
1Co 9:10 Does he not speak entirely for our sake? It was written for our sake, because the plowman should plow in hope and the thresher thresh in hope of sharing in the crop.
1Co 9:11 If we have sown spiritual things among you, is it too much if we reap material things from you?
1Co 9:12 If others share this rightful claim on you, do not we even more? Nevertheless, we have not made use of this right, but we endure anything rather than put an obstacle in the way of the gospel of Christ.
1Co 9:13 Do you not know that those who are employed in the temple service get their food from the temple, and those who serve at the altar share in the sacrificial offerings?
1Co 9:14 In the same way, the Lord commanded that those who proclaim the gospel should get their living by the gospel.
1Co 9:15 But I have made no use of any of these rights, nor am I writing these things to secure any such provision. For I would rather die than have anyone deprive me of my ground for boasting.
1Co 9:16 For if I preach the gospel, that gives me no ground for boasting. For necessity is laid upon me. Woe to me if I do not preach the gospel!
1Co 9:17 For if I do this of my own will, I have a reward, but if not of my own will, I am still entrusted with a stewardship.
1Co 9:18 What then is my reward? That in my preaching I may present the gospel free of charge, so as not to make full use of my right in the gospel.
1Co 9:19 For though I am free from all, I have made myself a servant to all, that I might win more of them.
1Co 9:20 To the Jews I became as a Jew, in order to win Jews. To those under the law I became as one under the law (though not being myself under the law) that I might win those under the law.
1Co 9:21 To those outside the law I became as one outside the law (not being outside the law of God but under the law of Christ) that I might win those outside the law.
1Co 9:22 To the weak I became weak, that I might win the weak. I have become all things to all people, that by all means I might save some.
1Co 9:23 I do it all for the sake of the gospel, that I may share with them in its blessings.
ME: So, you see, Paul is speaking of food. He even shows that he, if an example of one who preaches the Word to the masses, did not partake of this right for the sake of the gospel and did it free of charge.
Even the verse in 1 Tim. 5:18 shows the same thing within its context. As a matter of fact, if read within the epistle correctly, Paul speaks of honor being given as a wage and not money.
1Ti 5:17 Let the elders who rule well be considered worthy of double honor, especially those who labor in preaching and teaching.
1Ti 5:18 For the Scripture says, "You shall not muzzle an ox when it treads out the grain," and, "The laborer deserves his wages."
Besides, there is really no type of job description for a pastor as a job to deserve any pay that I know of, but I could be wrong.
I remember Paul saying that he supplied things from his own hands somewhere, but it escapes me at the moment since I do not have my Bible handy.
But thank you very much for the link. It was helpful, somewhat.
Brother PJ, I agree with First Corinthians. I don't know what gave you the idea that I didn't though.
The gift of pastoring? What exactly is this gift that you speak of, brother?
Does it have a specific description by any chance?
If so, can you please enlighten me to what exactly a pastor does by way of the Word of God?
Because I don't see a job description anywhere that I can see thus far.
But maybe I missed it somewhere? I'd be delighted to go to the Scriptural reference, should you happen to provide me with one. Can you please point me to it, if you can?
I can certainly see some of the points you are making. However it seems that the bigger picture may be evading you here. What does it mean to eat and drink? That is our life source. It's why we work. You did repeat the verse that teaches that a worker deserves his wages. Paul saying that he chose not to demand that right is more a testament to his character than a statement that pastors should work for free. Paul wasn't saying that he never ate or drank was he? To take that literally would mean he died very quickly. Clearly he was supported by some and it also seems clear that he is saying it's his right. Don't get too caught up on whether it's food or not. Food is tied to work. You eat if you work. Of course, I could be looking at this totally wrong. This is how I see it though. In your opinion, should a pastor have another career or form of payment?
Brother PJ, I agree with First Corinthians. I don't know what gave you the idea that I didn't though.
The gift of pastoring? What exactly is this gift that you speak of, brother?
Does it have a specific description by any chance?
If so, can you please enlighten me to what exactly a pastor does by way of the Word of God?
Because I don't see a job description anywhere that I can see thus far.
But maybe I missed it somewhere? I'd be delighted to go to the Scriptural reference, should you happen to provide me with one. Can you please point me to it, if you can?
Thanks for your cooperation in advance, brother.
As I said you have rejected The gift of pastor and when anyone reject's the light of God's word they, then will walk into darkness on that topic it is a spiritual law.
2nd Corinthians is about finances, if one is walking the light of the word as he is in the light, and yes food is mentioned.
Btw your response also deny's simple spiritual laws.
If I remember correctly you have also rejected the tithe as scripture.
Brother Hope, thanks for responding. You made some good points to ponder upon.
You said: I can certainly see some of the points you are making. However it seems that the bigger picture may be evading you here. What does it mean to eat and drink? That is our life source. It's why we work. You did repeat the verse that teaches that a worker deserves his wages. Paul saying that he chose not to demand that right is more a testament to his character than a statement that pastors should work for free. Paul wasn't saying that he never ate or drank was he? To take that literally would mean he died very quickly. Clearly he was supported by some and it also seems clear that he is saying it's his right. Don't get too caught up on whether it's food or not. Food is tied to work. You eat if you work. Of course, I could be looking at this totally wrong. This is how I see it though. In your opinion, should a pastor have another career or form of payment?
The thought does occur to me that something may be evading me, brother, but the verses supplied for the reasons don't really support the alary view.
See this is why I see it thus:
Paul was a tent maker by trade (Act 18:3) and worked to support himself ( Acts 20:34). In fact, he even said to imitate him in the same manner to the disciples within Acts.
Act 20:33 I coveted no one's silver or gold or apparel.
Act 20:34 You yourselves know that these hands ministered to my necessities and to those who were with me.
Act 20:35 In all things I have shown you that by working hard in this way we must help the weak and remember the words of the Lord Jesus, how he himself said, 'It is more blessed to give than to receive.'"
He even tells the Thessalonians that he did this as an example for them in the first epistle (1 Thess. 2:9). He even stresses later on in the letter by saying that they should work with their own hands and be dependent on no one (1 Thess. 4: 10b-12). So the text given in 1 Thess. 5:18 really doesn't fit the idea of a pastor salary by the context of the letter to them. In fact, as we see from the verse before (1 Thess. 5:17), it is speaking of HONOR being given to an elder (The word Time in the Greek is used for value. The best example for this word that I can give is Romans 13:7 to show for it.) and it is in no way showing that one should be paid for ministering to the saints at the gatherings. Paul even though he had this right, tells them to imitate him in the second (2 Thess. 3:7-9) epistles to them.
And if you even notice the tone of the statement in the two epistles to them, Paul is still adamant on the issue when addressing the Ephesians, through Timothy, about one supporting himself and his own household first because he made it seems as if this act was worse than a non-believer (1 Tim. 5:8).
So, even if we apply the 1 Cor. 9 to a money issue of support, we'd have to conclude this to be something more of a missionary support for someone who is starting up a church in a place where there is none until the church can stand on its own feet, because Paul was working for himself. Sure, there were times when believers gave him gifts, I'm sure, but it was not intended for a weekly means of supporting him or anyone else for that matter. If there is, I don't see it. But I could be wrong.
Brother PJ, I don't understand your statement. Can you please explain this: As I said you have rejected The gift of pastor and when anyone reject's the light of God's word they, then will walk into darkness on that topic it is a spiritual law.
2nd Corinthians is about finances, if one is walking the light of the word as he is in the light, and yes food is mentioned.
Btw your response also deny's simple spiritual laws.
If I remember correctly you have also rejected the tithe as scripture.
You can not know bible truth with the intellect.
ME: I see you mention the second epistle to the Corinthians again. I thought you might be alluding to something in it as far as money support for clergy, but it was just presumption on my part since you did not really explain or show a place of reference your statement.
But I did read the letter though.
And this is what I found by way of money.
Paul saying something to the effect of not being like some who retail the Word of God for gain in 2 Cor. 2:17.
And then he speaks to the Corinthians about the promise they made about sending relief to the saints in Jerusalem( 2 Cor. 8-9) because of the famine they had there (Acts 11:27-30). In fact, the very first few verses in the 16th chapter of the first epistle are about the collection for the saints that Paul brought to Jerusalem in Acts 24:17.
So, could you please explain what you said, if possible?
I will admit, this is one of those things I just always believed because I assumed it was so. To me that is not sufficient though. I should be able to give a defense for what a believe. For many, being a pastor is a full time job. I'm not sure that they would have time to work in other ways. Either way, you've brought up some good points to think about. Now I need to find out what I believe on the issue and why.
