An Interview With Dean Gotcher

Posted : 30 Jan, 2013 03:30 PM

An Interview With Dean Gotcher



Dean Gotcher is an authority on the attitude and belief changing process called the dialectic. He has a great many audios available on the Internet, but here is a text of Gotcher talking to Joan Veon.



Joan Veon writes as part of her introduction: "The Hegelian Dialectic is being used and is part of Goals 2000 and Outcome Based Education. It is being used by corporations, churches, seminaries, Christian groups, our government, environmental and pro-abortion non- governmental organizations, the military, and the media. Where does it come from? It originated in the Garden of Eden. The following is taken from an interview with Dean Gotcher. "



Note: She mentions that the dialectic belief changing process is being used by churches, seminaries and Christian groups. There are forms of the dialectic used on Christian forums.



I have not included the entire interview here.

INTERVIEW



Joan Veon: Dean, you have been going around the country talking about a process which all Americans need to understand. Could you first tell me a little bit about your background and how you stumbled into what you're doing now?



"Dean Gotcher: Well, I went to college at Christian College to earn a teacher's degree, not knowing that I was going to be trained in the dialectic process. I was thought I was going to have a traditional education, but in the late 60s there was big movement with Maslow and Rogers and others to move education to the Transformational Dialectic Structure. So, by my senior year I realized that I had to either return to my faith, or go with the process. (Abraham Maslow is the creator of "Maslow's Hierarchy" which I remember from Psychology 101. Maslow was pro-UN, a World Federalist, a one worlder as he believed the world would not be at peace until nations give up their sovereignty.)



I made that decision to go with the Word of God which meant I not only had to repent of my sin and my rebellion, which is a process I thought had justified for me, but I also had to repent on my teacher training. I then realized I couldn't teach, I was damaged goods and so I went off to seminary thinking that I would get my head straightened out and my relationship with the Lord was restored. I enjoyed the Greek New Testament. but then we got into higher thinking skills. I studied men like Roff (?) and Wellhousen--intelligent men who decided the Word of God was the result of the dialectic process. Wellhousen's dying words were "I've lost my faith." So, I realized that ministry was going the way of the Dialectic and I didn't want to be a part of it. I left, went into construction, and raised my family for several years. I ended up going back to the University where I focused on European history and philosophy.



I went back to the university and have read over 600 social psychology books in five years trying to find out for myself what kind of procedure was being used to change our kids and how it was being applied. I reintroduce myself to the dialectic process and its application. Since then I've been crossing the country, explaining the procedure of behavior change, how it's done in the classroom, the workplace, and the political realm including transformational outcome based education, total quality management, and school to work.



Veon: Dean, help me understand what the process is and where you are seeing it in society today?



Gotcher: Well, the process is built on three stages which are more complex than this. There is thesis, which is simple, that's you and your position and facts based on what you believe. Antithesis is somebody who's different than you. The moment the two of you who are different are in the same room, there's a potential relationship there. However, the only way you can get to it is synthesis [agreement in the relationship]. You and the other person have to put aside your differences for the sake of a relationship and try to find facts or elements of your belief systems that are in harmony. That's socialism. Eventually if that becomes your agenda-- the dialectic way of thinking--you have a socialist cosmic mind which puts aside anything that gets in the way of the relationship. That, by the way, means any information that's introduced that breaks up human relationship is impractical and is irrational. This then is John Dewey's instrumentalism approach to this process."



"Veon: Traditional way of being . . .



Gotcher: Right. Accountability to a higher authority. The patriarchal way means children are to obey their parents. That's being rejected --its an old fashioned way of thinking. Now it's partnership and dialoging to consensus. Finding common ground through the use of consensus-- that's synthesis By the way, in a meeting we find that we are to focus in on what we can accept for sake of a relationship. The church is really more troubling to me as far as its involvement in it. The state and the government has been in this process for some time, but the religious community is being pulled into it. I really don't know if there's going to be a turn around without God's direct intervention.



Veon: Give me an example of how the church is being pulled in. What is the church doing that reflects this new type of thinking, the dialectic?



Gotcher: Well, this whole process is built on relationships and the building of relationships. Scripture talks about unity and loving one another. But you need to realize that the Gospel is the Good News. It is not unity, it is not hope, it's Jesus Christ. And so, the hope of the Gospel is found in Christ. The unity of the Gospel is found in Christ. So, we must look to Christ as the source of our relationship. And so relationship is based upon Him.



Well, what's happened is that if unity is the objective, with all the different interpretations of who Christ is, you then have to go into the Word of God and find what Scripture has in common with Buddhism, Moslem, and all the other religions of the world. Once you find what you have in common, you then redefine Christ for the sake of a relationship. And so, we've turned it around. We have learned to redefine the Gospel for the sale of unity, for the sake of hope, for the sake of peace. God's not going there."



My Note: Gotcher is saying that our relationship should be with Jesus Christ. We should have affection or love for him and for his truth. But when our relationships are with the church, the preacher, our man-made theology, and our friends in our church, then the dialectic process leads us to defend these relationships - of affection, or love - by compromising our positions. By position, I mean our doctrines, what we believe. In the Traditional Way of thinking that Veon mentioned, God's word is absolute truth, and is not subject to being changed by man wanting to preserve his relationships. But in the dialectic way of thinking man moves away from absolute truth and absolute morality to compromised positions to protect his relationships.



"You don't come to God through feelings, you come to God through facts, through the truth of his Word, the thesis. Jesus said, "I am the way, the truth and the life." He didn't say, "I am the feeling." And so, what ministry and seminaries have done is to teach ministers how to learn the dialectic process for the sake of relationship within the church who then bring it to the church. In their ignorance, the ministers are processing the church using the Hegelian Dialectic."



In seminary I took the equivalent of a total quality management course where I learned how to survey the congregation--"what do you think and how do you feel?" The problem is truth is "What do you know. The Word of God IS. We're accountable to IT, AS IS, NOT HOW DO WE FEEL OR THINK ABOUT IT. And the moment you go into the dialogue [the dialectic process], which now is in Sunday School materials as well--about what do you think and how do you feel--over what is, you are now allowing the child to be a scientist on God--to question the authority of God's Word, instead of looking at it as is, and saying, "Okay, I don't understand it, Lord reveal it to me." This has to be what we do instead of gaging how we think and feel.



But, instead we want to impress others, and so we say, "Well I feel and I think," using this to fill up our void of not understanding. We think and therefore we produce our own doctrine and our belief. The problem is that our beliefs are then based on our feelings and not the Word of God or a faith that the Lord knows the answer. And so, there's somebody else who has a different "I think and I feel" and so we have all these diversities. The only way we can really resolve this bickering and complaining is that we go back to the Word of God and study it [in light of] our disagreements with "I feel and I think" which means, both of us, if you and I disagree, have to go back to the Word of God. We are going to have to admit that and that we really don't know what it means, but it's there and we are accountable to it. And, that's where faith is involved. Otherwise, we make faith a tool to be changed to our human understanding, then using the dialectic, to change it to meet our felt needs for the sake of a relationship. The agenda that the Berean church revealed to Paul, was that they weren't hung up on Paul. They weren't hung up on a relationship. They were hung up on truth. So when the Apostle Paul shared the Gospel, they went to the Word of God and checked him out. Try that with ministers today and they'll get bent out of shape because you're not knowledgeable to question their "I think and I feel." Pastors need to be questioned on what they know, not what they feel or think.



Theology students drive me nuts because they say "Jesus is a team builder." I say, "Wait a minute. No, He wasn't a team builder. Everyone of those disciples could stand on their own. They didn't need the group to make a decision. They died alone as martyrs. They realized there wasn't a group grade on the day of judgement. They didn't say, "I think and I feel." You don't find that in their ministry. They saw the truth and proclaimed it. They encouraged us through their work to continue to proclaim the truth." Jesus' ministry was not built on "I think and I feel." It was built on "I know."



Veon: Dean, we are seeing a change in America. Many people cannot define what the change is. Can you bring this change down to what has really happened and the kind of process that has occurred in America to bring about the change that we feel but don't know how to identify or even to counteract.



Gotcher: Well, there's several avenues that change took place in. It started, certainly, before the social psychologists hit in the 60s. [There was] Robert Havighurst. He was concerned about the church becoming user friendly --by bringing it over to the dialectic process to find social harmony with the world, [the church] wouldn't become an instrument of division, but an instrument of harmony. [Then came] Paul Tillick who taught ministers that the dialectic is foundational to ministry for the sake of relationship because the dialectic is concerned with cosmic one world unity. Unfortunately, that's the direction the church is going which is to find harmony with the religions of the world. To do that, they have to redefine the world of God to make the dialectic work.



A lot of religious organizations are now involved: Willowcreek in Chicago and Saddleback in California. I've talked to people who go to Saddleback and they think it's wonderful. But, they don't understand the procedure because they're into "feelings" and "I think" instead of "I know." Yes, they use Scripture, but they're using the process. You can't use this process because it's not a Godly process. God is Thesis. He doesn't question Himself. He doesn't see Himself as obverse and He doesn't come to consensus with obverse.



Unfortunately the seminaries and colleges have been involved in this process for a long time. I ran into it in the early 70s in seminary. 100 years prior to that, Grof and Wellhousen, two very intelligent men decided the Word of God evolved. They called it the JDPE Hypothesis. Looking at the different sources that developed the Word of God, instead of looking at it as is. Today the Church Growth Ministry is fully involved in partnership, in relationship building, in ice breaker exercises which produces the unfreezing which Kurt Lewin talked about. The synthesis--getting you to share with somebody else who's different than you. Getting into "I think and I feel" mode of conversation. And then there's the moving--of the changing of the person which is the dialoguing. You do not dialogue the Word of God, you preach and teach it. You dialogue what you're not sure about. And then you refreeze, because decisions are made upon the consensus of the relationship of the group, rather than a decision based upon what the word of God says, is. We need to get the Greek New Testament out if we really want to do some digging and exercise our minds on exactly what the Word of God says rather than using the vague language of "I think and I feel."



The evangelism, church growth and counseling training manuals are all based on the feelings mode, the effective domain, not the cognitive, not the fact. We have a lot of separation and divorce in our society. It's actually been the result of the breakdown of our society that the moral character that it used to have, because it was built on the integrity and the Authority of God's Word. We have gone to the vagueness, the ambiguity, the tolerance of human, fallen human nature within the church. So now ministers don't call adultery sin, they call it "bad behavior." I just wonder how many women a man's going to go through in an adulteress relationship before he finally overcomes this "bad behavior."



Veon: What you're really saying is that they have taken the Word of God, which is the thesis and which is correct behavior according to the Word of God, and have completely changed it to make it the antithesis so that it's whatever feels good, and that's where you rationalize, What you have done is you have freed yourself from the thesis.



Gotcher: Yes. Well, actually the thesis, the Word of God is. That's what thesis is, the "I know." The antithesis is relationship. So, if you're into the Word of God, spouting the Ten Commandments (Thou shalt not), you're going to be called judgmental because you're going to break up a relationship with somebody else [because they believe different from the Word of God]. And, so the only way you can have a relationship with this other person is to not explain the part of the Word where you disagree. We are learning to pick and choose what Scripture to use and extrapolate so that we can continue this relationship. Extrapolation is what has happened in the church. Scripture being left out and it's being redefined.



Now, people in the church sense something's wrong. Their Spirit is picking up that something's wrong but they don't know what it is. It is what is being removed from the Scriptures which can cause division within the family. Look at Focus on the Family. What is it doing? It is looking at one issue and saying, "Let's put aside all the other issues and focus on one issue." This means that when diversity shows up, you put aside the "cannots" that offend one another. Focus on one issue and you're into the synthesis of the dialectic process! This is what's happened with the Billy Graham Association. By focusing on one issue, ministers come together from diverse backgrounds, thesis/antithesis. Put aside the differences of folks on one issue, and what do you have? You have just taken all the ministers into the dialectic synthesis process.



Veon: All right, so where does the dialectic come from, and what large organization do we see it being used in today?



Gotcher: Well, it has a history. George Wilhelm Friedrich Hegel is noted for 1820s for what is now known as the "Hegelian Dialectic." Hegel picked it up from (name of expert) who picked it up from the Jesuit school he was involved in it.



It goes back to Gnosticism and Gnosticism comes from Cabalism. Cabalism goes all the way back to Babylonia, and eventually back to the Garden where Eve participated in the process. Satan used a neurolinguistic phrase on her, "Yea, has God not said"-- experts don't know whether the sentence ended with a period or question mark."



Well, now she's given this neurolinguistic phrase and responds with her dissatisfaction. She could not touch the tree. Sure, she responded with facts, but she added feelings to dissatisfaction. Then Satan says, as a master facilitator, "You can put aside God's 'cannot.' You won't be held accountable. You won't die." That's a lie and she believed it. Then she looked at the tree--it's good for food. That's thesis. That's for you individually. It's pleasing to the eyes. That's relationship--the antithesis. And it will make one wise, that's synthesis. That's your ability of justifying why you should be able to do what you feel like doing instead of doing what somebody else has told you to do. And so Eve did the dialectic process right there at the tree. If you want to know how new the New Age is, that's how new the New Age is. That's New Age. It's been put in intellectual form -- Bloom's Taxonomies (Benjamin S. Bloom, David R. Krathwohl, & Bertram B. Masia, Taxonomy of Educational Objectives: The Classification of Educational goals. Cognitive Domain. New York: Longman, 1956) are structured on the dialectic for global consumption.



Veon: What you are really saying is that the Garden of Eden and the whole process that Satan used in the Garden of Eden is really being used world wide--its the dialectic process. Specifically in America, and then of course, globally. You haven't said it yet, but it's being used at the United Nations, is it not?



Gotcher: Right. Physically we are outside the Garden, but today we're still recycling this very same process. It's the fallen human nature. What social psychologists found out is that our fallen human nature is common to all mankind around the world. So, if you want to have consensus on a world basis, one world unity, then you build on what we all have in common. This is what the dialectic is and so therefore the UN. Bloom's cognitive domains are foundational to the development of life long learning which came out of the UN."



"And so, the dialectic comes in and it teaches the children, and transformational outcome-based education, total quality management in the workplace. It teaches the worker how to not be concerned with sovereignty and borders, but relationships across those borders. That's why NAFTA and GATT and all these things were developed for our nation. To destroy our sovereignty and to weaken our borders so that relationship could be developed across these borders. So that eventually the method of solving work problems would be the same in Canada and in Mexico.



The same with the military. I have a questionnaire from the military which Marines and F16 pilots were asking me about. They said, "We have to fill out this questionnaire. And it asks in question 45 if the U.S. government were to pass a law whereby all citizens had to hand in their guns, and only keep sporting guns, would I be willing, as a soldier, to go in and shoot an American if they refuse to turn in their guns?"



Well, then as I read this survey, I found the first ten or twelve questions dealt with U.S. extra-curricular activity--troops being used for drug prevention, disaster relief, those kinds of things. And then, all of a sudden, the questions switch over to the UN. The troops used to do the same thing with UN. Finally question 39 asks, "Would you agree, disagree, mostly disagree, or have no opinion that the President of the United States, as Commander in Chief, has the right to turn his authority over to the Secretary General of the UN?"



"The ultimate agenda is to destroy a patriarch mind. That is the mind that actually will go to war for a principle. For example in 1967 divorce was made easy. I've read social psychology books that talk about how that was a good thing since the son is now raised under the mother and will not be introduced to the authority structure of the father. The son, then, is a softened matriarch interpretation of the next father. He really doesn't know how to function as a Godly authority structure with love in his home. That way, according to these folks, that means we're not going to have war any more. "



"Veon: So, what we have here is that when Americans think that the Communist Revolution only happened in Russia in 1918, it was really just birthed in 1918. It has come around the world, and we as Americans, have been caught up in this process. Our church has been watered down, our kids are being programmed and our government now looks at people who support the American flag, and those people who are patriots as the criminal.



Gotcher: Right. They are the extremists. They are over reacting. They are not tolerant for the sake of social harmony. Now, there's a difference between Dialectic Materialism and Historical Materialism. If you talk to Marxists, they will tell you, "We don't study history, we make history." Well, the dialectic is historical. They want it to continue flowing, because it is always making history.



The historical materialistic and the dialectic materialist are at odds with one another. The Tiennamen Square issue which we thought was a struggle between democracy versus communism, was a struggle between Traditional Marxism versus Transformational Marxism."



"I don't have to tell the next generation not to believe in God. All I have to do is teach the next generation how to think dialectic and they won't believe in God because they are always going to question who God is. I see a generation coming down the road running on the same course as the New World Order that will worship man the creation, and not the Creator.



Veon: Dean, what we've really been talking about in all of this is spiritual warfare. You said at the beginning that it really started in the Garden of Eden. What we're really discussing is how the spiritual warfare is being manifested all around us in society, philosophically, emotionally, physically, the pride of life, the lust of the eye. This is really what we're talking about and where it leads us is to complete bondage to a global feudalistic system. "

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