Romans 2: 28-29 and revelation 7: 1-8: The 144,000
Posted : 3 Dec, 2010 11:05 AM
The automated system of Christian Dating For Free censored the whole section I just tried to post. I am not sure why. It might be the word circumcision, but if my memory is right i have seen that word on used on this forum.
Anyway, here is the last part of my post. I will give a link to the entire post below, though it will not come out live here.
Again, the first temple of God was a physical building. But Paul in
I Corinthians 3: 16-17 says "Know ye not that ye are the temple of
God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?
17. If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for
the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are." And in II
Corinthians 6: 16 Paul says " And what agreement hath the temple of
God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath
said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God,
and they shall be my people."
When God's people Israel were reborn in Jesus Christ (John 3: 1-5) the
temple as a physical building in Jerusalem was done away with and the
temple of God became his people, who were made his people by faith, by
belief, and not by genetics as in the Old Covenant times.
There are other examples of how what was physical under the Old
Covenant was translated into spiritual things under the New Covenant.
Hebrews 10: 1 explains that "For the law having a shadow of good
things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with
those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the
comers thereunto perfect." The law included the ceremonial law.
But the dispensationalists have tried to establish a mingling of the
faith of the New Covenant with the physical things of the Old
Covenant. And - remember that at the time of Christ Talmudic Judaism
had in great part replaced the true faith of the Old Covenant as the
religion of the Pharisees. Dispensationalism promoted the Jews as
still being God's chosen people, whether they are saved or unsaved.
John 1: 11 says " He came unto his own, and his own received him
not." As a result Matthew 8: 11-12 says "And I say unto you, That
many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with
Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven.
12. But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer
darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth."
Dispensationalists have taught many Christians to believe that God has
tgwo very different people with whom he deals in different ways, the
Jews, on the one hand, and the Church, on the other hand.
Christians of the Church can never be Israel according to
dispensationalism. This sets up an identity problem for Christians
under dispensationalism. Paul says in Romans 11: 17, 20 that "And if
some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree,
wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and
fatness of the olive tree;..Well; because of unbelief they were broken
off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:" He
calls the olive tree the good olive tree in verse 24. But he does not
tell us what or who the good olive tree is into which Gentile
Christians are grafted.
Scripture always interprets scripture, since the utterances of men of
God inspired by the Holy Spirit are consistent because they come from
the mind of God. The good olive tree cannot be Old Covenant Israel
under all the physical things of that Covenant. The good olive tree
must be the new Covenant of Jeremiah 31: 31-33, and forecasted in the
parable of the potter in Jeremiah 18: 1-6. It cannot be the religion
of the Pharisees because Christ said to them in John 8: 44 that their
father was tre devil, and he was highly critical of them in other
passages. The good olive tree has to be Israel, but Israel reborn in
Christ. It could be said to be Christ himself. But its also those
Jews who were reborn in Christ on the Day of Pentecost in Acts 2 who
came out of the Old Covenant and out of man's religion - the religion
of the Pharisees - and who did not return to bondage to the law, to
Jerusalem which is now, and not the Jerusalem which is above, is free,
and is the mother of us all (Galatians 4: 25-26)
Salvation is in one's identity in Christ, and if one has given away
his identity in Israel as Christ's people, as the chosen people of I
Peter 2:9 , which has been transformed, to another people who rejected
Christ one may be in trouble.
Now dispensationalism tends to follow a literal method of
interpretation of scripture, and tends also to follow a physical
interpretation when it comes to anything abouyt the Jews. So, they
cannot believe that the 144,000 of Revelation 7: 1-8 and revelation
14: 1-5 are not all Jews. To a dispensationalist - or a follower of
that theology - a Jew is defined as a physical descendant of Abraham.
But Paul says no, in Romans 2: 28-29. " For he is not a Jew, which is
one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the
flesh:
29. But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that
of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is
not of men, but of God."
In the Book of Acts, for example, "men of Israel: and "Jews" were used
to address the same people. So, when Paul says a true Jew is an
inward or spiritual Jew and not an outward Jew, that is a physical
descendant of Abraham who is not reborn in Christ he is also saying
that a true Jew is a true Israelite. The distinction between Israel
as the northern kingdom and Judah as the southern kingdom was not
followed in the time of Christ.
Gentile Christians who are reborn in Christ are grafted into
spiritual Israel, which has been translated or reborn in Christ.
Paul reinforces his teaching that physical Jews are no longer true
Jews if they have rejected Christ in Romans 9: 7-8. " Not as though
the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel,
which are of Israel:
7. Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all
children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
8. That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not
the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for
the seed."
You want to be the spiritual seed of God, and not the inhabitant of
the government incorporated 501c (3) Church.
As the seed of God who have been selected when the time comes to be in
the 144,000 a Christian is glad to be a spiritual Jew, because he is
she is a child of God and follows the Lamb wherever he goes. And in
Revelation 7: 5-8 12,000 from each of twelve tribes of Israel are
said to be members of the 144,000. This is not referring to physical
Jews, who Paul says are no longer true Jews. It is a reference to
the identity of the members of ter 144,000 in Israel, and it may not
be important to try to figure out which tribe any particular member of
Romans 2: 28-29 and revelation 7: 1-8: The 144,000
Posted : 3 Dec, 2010 03:24 PM
twosparrows wrote "Just in skimming, I assume it is a topic about having ones spiritual 4skin cut of makes you a true child of Abraham?
If so..I agree. "
Galatians 3: 28-29 " There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
29. And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise."
Since Paul in Romans 2: 29 talks about circumcision of the heart, in the spirit and not in the letter (of the ceremonial law), you could say that one whose heart has been spiritually circumcised is a spiritual Jew and part of spiritual Israel - and a true s child of Abraham.
Its saying born again Christians are spiritual Israel which gives followers of dispensationalism the conniptions.
Much of the Old Testament is interesting, though much of it was also done away with in the New Testament. The prophets, however, are of God and inspired by the Holy Spirit, who was not fully revealed in the Old Covenant. And - I might have let more than one cat out of the bag in trying to show that the explicit references to the twelve tribes of Israel in Revelation 7: 1- 8 does not mean the 144,000 are all male Jewish virgins as classical dispensationalism has taught for years. The belief that they were male virgins comes from Revelation 14: 4.
