Thread: Why Jesus said "No man can come to me unless the Father draws them."
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Why Jesus said "No man can come to me unless the Father draws them."
Posted : 22 Aug, 2011 06:57 PM
Total Depravity
1. Man is constituted a sinner by his relationship with Adam
Psa 51:5 Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.
Psa 58:3 The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies.
Rom 5:18-19 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life. For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.
2. He is therefore unable
A) To do anything good
Gen 6:5 And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.
Job 15:14-16 What is man, that he should be clean? and he which is born of a woman, that he should be righteous? Behold, he putteth no trust in his saints; yea, the heavens are not clean in his sight. How much more abominable and filthy is man, which drinketh iniquity like water?
Psa 130:3 If thou, LORD, shouldest mark iniquities, O Lord, who shall stand?
Psa 143:2 And enter not into judgment with thy servant: for in thy sight shall no man living be justified.
Pro 20:9 Who can say, I have made my heart clean, I am pure from my sin?
Ecc 7:20 For there is not a just man upon earth, that doeth good, and sinneth not.
Isa 64:6 But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.
Jer 13:23 Can the Ethiopian change his skin or the leopard its spots? Then may you also do good who are accustomed to do evil.
Joh 3:19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
Rom 3:9-12 What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin; As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
Jam 3:8 But the tongue can no man tame; it is an unruly evil, full of deadly poison.
1Jo 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
B) To believe in God (or come to him)
Joh 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
Joh 6:65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.
Joh 8:43-45 Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word. Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it. And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not.
Joh 10:26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.
Joh 12:37-41 But though he had done so many miracles before them, yet they believed not on him: That the saying of Esaias the prophet might be fulfilled, which he spake, Lord, who hath believed our report? and to whom hath the arm of the Lord been revealed? Therefore they could not believe, because that Esaias said again, He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them. These things said Esaias, when he saw his glory, and spake of him.
C) To understand the truth
Joh 14:17 "the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him; but you know Him, for He dwells with you and will be in you.
1Co 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
D) To seek God
Rom 3:10-11 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
3. He is dead in sins
Gen 2:16-17 And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat: But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.
Joh 3:5-7 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
Eph 2:1-3 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins; Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
Col 2:13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;
4. He is blinded and corrupt in his heart
Gen 6:5 And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.
Gen 8:21 And the LORD smelled a sweet savour; and the LORD said in his heart, I will not again curse the ground any more for man's sake; for the imagination of man's heart is evil from his youth; neither will I again smite any more every thing living, as I have done.
Ecc 9:3 This is an evil among all things that are done under the sun, that there is one event unto all: yea, also the heart of the sons of men is full of evil, and madness is in their heart while they live, and after that they go to the dead.
Jer 17:9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?
Mar 7:21-23 For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders, Thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lasciviousness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness: All these evil things come from within, and defile the man.
Joh 3:19-21 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in [by] God.
Rom 8:7-8 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
Eph 4:17-19 This I say therefore, and testify in the Lord, that ye henceforth walk not as other Gentiles walk, in the vanity of their mind, Having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart: Who being past feeling have given themselves over unto lasciviousness, to work all uncleanness with greediness.
Eph 5:8 For ye were sometimes darkness, but now are ye light in the Lord: walk as children of light:
5. He is captive to sin and Satan
Joh 8:34 Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.
Joh 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.
Rom 6:20 For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness.
2Ti 2:25-26 In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth; And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.
Titus 3:3 For we ourselves also were sometimes foolish, disobedient, deceived, serving divers lusts and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful, and hating one another.
1Jo 5:19 And we know that we are of God, and the whole world lieth in wickedness.
6. He performs actions freely according to his nature, but his nature is wholly evil
Job 14:4 Who can bring a clean thing out of an unclean? not one.
Mat 7:16-18 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
Mat 12:33 Either make the tree good, and his fruit good; or else make the tree corrupt, and his fruit corrupt: for the tree is known by his fruit.
Mar 7:21-23 "For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders, "thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lewdness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness. "All these evil things come from within and defile a man."
Jam 1:13-14 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man: But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
Why Jesus said "No man can come to me unless the Father draws them."
Posted : 22 Aug, 2011 08:48 PM
No arch I agree with the word I do not agree with the meaning that is put upon these bible truths by Calvinism.
Calvinism is a good organization of words of Justification that are engineered to deceive who ever will bite into the death proclaimed in them.
What do I mean by justification: the foundation or pillars of Calvinism is the tulip, and not one statement of that dead flower is true.
It starts with man is dead in sin, so he can not respond to the lord in any way, unable to believe or have faith.
Man is not born into Sin that is another Calvinist lie.
Man's whole relationship, fellowship, is based on the very things they say he can not do, and there is not one scripture that agrees with that lie even if you hear I have at least 50 scriptures that say man can not respond to the scripture, etc, etc.
Man's response to the word God, starts with having an ear to hear, and then believing with the heart and corresponding action.
Notice it seems as though they believe the word of God is true, but whenever you answer a point of their unbelief with scripture they will not acknowledge it. They put their own meaning to every scripture they post to justify there doctrine.
Why Jesus said "No man can come to me unless the Father draws them."
Posted : 22 Aug, 2011 11:32 PM
James have enjoyed some of your posts but do not agree with all of them. I believe you present only those scriptures that you think tend to back up your view. Consider this, do you think God really would command the unregenerated person to repent when he can not? What kind of sick games do you think God is into? Or could it be possible that we do not fully understand how to harmonize scripture? "And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth ALL MEN EVERY WHERE TO REPENT; because he hath appointed a day, in which he will judge the world in RIGHTOUSNESS by that man whom he ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto ALL MEN, in that he hath raised him from the dead." Acts 30-32 If this command is given to ALL MEN and they can not repent it is a meaningless command because they cannot. If it is only given to the elect it is a meaningless command because it would happen anyway.
Jesus said: The kingdom of heaven is like a king who arranged a marriage for his son, and set out for his servants to call those who were invited to the wedding; and they were NOT WILLING TO COME..."The wedding is ready, but those who were invited were not worthy. Therefore go into the highways, and invite AS MANY AS YOU FIND, INVITE TO THE WEDDING." So those servants went out into the highways and gathered together all whom they found, BOTH BAD AND GOOD. And the wedding hall was filled with guests. But when the king came in to see the guests, he saw a man there who did not have on a wedding garment. So he said to him,"Friend how did you come in here without a wedding garment?" And he was speechless. Then the king said to the servants,"Bind him hand and foot, take him away, and cast him into outer darkness; there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth." For many are called but few are chosen. Matthew 22:2-14.
I believe the above parable illustrates God calls and WE CAN AND MUST BE WILLING TO RESPOND, WE MUST PUT ON THE WEDDING GARMENT THAT THE KING GIVES US(THE RIGHTOUSNESS OF CHRIST) in order to be chosen. This parable is from Christ and in my opinion trumps any theological speculation that we can not respond when God calls, but must be willing. People try to uphold God's sovereignty by doing away with man's free will, but God is big enough to give man choice "chose this day whom you will serve" and remain completely sovereign.
Is man in a state of depravity? Of course he is. Can God pierce that darkness by his word and spirit and call unto man? Of course he does. So let us not deny the sovereignty of God working as it works with the free will of man.
Why Jesus said "No man can come to me unless the Father draws them."
Posted : 23 Aug, 2011 09:42 AM
Good response Megreg illustrated by the parable which demonstrates that man had a choice whether to attend the wedding feast.
I don't understand why man continues to split hairs over the free will issue, when some just chose to interpret the meaning different. There are many difference of opinions here regarding the rapture and other issues, that does not mean the difference between salvation or death. We don't all interpret the scriptures the same, does that make one more right than another, I think not.
Why Jesus said "No man can come to me unless the Father draws them."
Posted : 23 Aug, 2011 09:59 AM
Romans 8:28-39: "We know that all things God works for the good of those who love Him, who:rolleyes: have been called according to His purpose. For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of His Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those He predestined, He also called; those He called He also justified; those He justified, He also glorified!!
What, then, shall we say in response to this? If God is for us:rolleyes:, who can be against us? He who did not spare His own Son, but gave Him up for us all--how will He not also , along with him, graciously give us all things?Who will bring any charge against those whom God has chosen? It is God who justifies. Who is he who condemns? Christ Jesus, who died--more than that who was raised to life--is at the right hand of God and is also interceding for us. Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall trouble or hardship or persecution or famine or nakedness or danger or sword?...No in all these things we are more then conquerors through Him who loved us. For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels or demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.":applause:
John 6:39,44: Jesus says, "This is the will of Him who sent Me, that I shall ****LOSE NONE**** of all:rolleyes: that He has given Me, but raise them up on the Last Day...No one can come to Me **UNLESS* the Father who sent Me draws him:rolleyes:, and I will raise him up at the Last Day!"
John 1:13,14: To all who:rolleyes: received Him {Jesus}..He gave the right to became children of God--children born not of natural descent, nor of *HUMAN DECISION** or of a husband's will, but BORN OF GOD!"
Ephesians 2:6-10: And God {The Father} raised us up with Him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus, in order that in the coming ages He might show the incomparable riches of His grace, expressed in His kindness to us in Christ Jesus. For it is be *GRACE* {Unmerited favor} you have been saved, through faith--and this **NOT FROM YOURSELVES**, it is the {100%} *GIFT* of God--**NOT BY WORKS**, so that no one can boast. For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do!":applause:
There will be two comings of Jesus on the same Last Day. The first will be **FOR** His saints and the second will be **WITH** His saints just after the Marriage Feast of the Lamb as per Revelation 19:8-20 and Revelation 17:14 "They will make war against the Lamb, but the Lamb will overcome them because He is Lord of lords and King of kings-- and **WITH HIM* will be His **CALLED **, **CHOSEN** and **FAITHFUL** followers!!":applause:
God only *CALLS** and CHOOSES** those He knows will be **FAITHFUL**.
Matthew 13:18-23: Jesus says, "Listen to what the parable of the sower means: When anyone hears the message about the kingdom and does not understand it {Such as all Roman Catholics}, the evil one comes and snatches away what was sown in his heart. This is the seed sown along the path. The one who received the seed that fell on rocky places is the man who hears the Word and at once receives it with joy: But since he has no root, he lasts only a short time. When trouble or persecution {See Matt 24:9-13} comes because of the Word, he quickly falls away. the one who received the seed that fell among the thorns is the man who hears the Word, but the worries of this life and the deceitfulness of wealth {The Prosperity Gospel} choke it making it unfruitful. But the one who received the seed that fell on good soil is the man who hears the Word and understands it. He produces a crop, yielding a hundred, sixty or thirty times what was sown!"
He is one of the **CALLED**, **CHOSEN** and **FAITHFUL**!!:angel:
