Legalism has been mentioned several times recently. So I have a question. What do people define legalism as?
I grew up in a denomination that many might call legalistic. I left there and now attend a evangelial verse by verse teaching church. I say that since I understand what a lot of people call legalism yet I also, since having grown up in that view, may retain some of those thoughts.
I think it would be hard to find a church that people call legalistic who will say that salvation is via works. I think that most people call someone legalistic because they have views that there are rules to be followed.
So, lets take two wide views to help discuss the matter. The bible is very clear about things like, not being drunk, not having sex before marriage, etc. Do we not alll form rules that say "I can't do that". I can't go to bar looking to get drunk and "hook up".
The bible is also pretty clear that would should do somethings. Remember the Lords supper, live by faith, not foresake the assembly. So we make rules that say "I should do this or that"
What if your brother or sister were doing all those "don'ts" and was not doing the "do's"? Would you not approach them about it? Ah! But then aren't you legalistic for telling them they shouldn't do that or should do this?
So where is the line drawn? At what point is are you doing to many of the don'ts and not of the do's?
Why is it that if you tell another christian that the bible says they shouldn't do that, or that they should do this, that you are automatically defined as a legalist?
While the word "keep" by its definition in the Greek may not imply 'obey', keeping God's commandments still requires an action from us to obey them.
And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight.
And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.
And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us. -1 John 3:22-24
David wrote in Psalm 119:11 - Thy word have I hid in mine heart, that I might not sin against thee.
The commandments Jesus laid out are God's Word. It is by keeping or guarding them in our hearts that we might not sin against Him. But it still requires an action on our part to obey Him and the commandments He sets forth. So yeah, why wouldn't we see "keep my commandments" and automatically read it as "obey"?
From τηρός teros (a watch; perhaps akin to G2334); to guard (from loss or injury, properly by keeping the eye upon; and thus differing from G5442, which is properly to prevent escaping; and from G2892, which implies a fortress or full military lines of apparatus), that is, to note (a prophecy; figuratively to fulfil a command); by implication to detain (in custody; figuratively to maintain); by extension to withhold (for personal ends; figuratively to keep unmarried): - hold fast, keep (-er), (ob-, pre-, re) serve, watch.
From G5259 and G191; to hear under (as a subordinate), that is, to listen attentively; by implication to heed or conform to a command or authority: - hearken, be obedient to, obey.
Mat 8:27 But the men marvelled, saying, What manner of man is this, that even the winds and the sea obey him!
From a compound of G3982 and G757; to be persuaded by a ruler, that is, (generally) to submit to authority; by analogy to conform to advice: - hearken, obey (magistrates).
Act 5:29 Then Peter and the other apostles answered and said, We ought to obey God rather than men.
Maybe I'm misunderstanding what is really being conveyed here..
Jesus said, If ye love me, keep my commandments. And in John 13:34, Jesus said, A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another.
In first John 3:22-24, we read, And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight. And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment. And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.
According to the Greek definition of "keep" which is guard, we would guard those commandments, right? And then what? What exactly does it mean to guard them? How do we "do those things that are pleasing in his sight" and how do we "believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment" without being obedient to those commandments? For me, to love one another takes an action on my part. That action is obedience to the commandment. So what am I missing here? How does one love one another, how does one do that which is pleasing in His sight, by just "guarding" those commandments if it doesn't mean obedience?
Here's something else to consider.. Jesus' words to the disciples in Matthew 28:19-20 - Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, [even] unto the end of the world. Amen. The same Greek word for "keep" is also used for "observe"
How do we teach someone to observe what the Lord has commanded us if there is no obedience on our part to those commandments? Do as I say, but not as I don't do? :goofball:
"Ye shall walk after the LORD your God, and fear him, and keep his commandments, and obey his voice, and ye shall serve him, and cleave unto him." Deuteronomy 13:4
"A blessing, if ye obey the commandments of the LORD your God, which I command you this day:"Deuteronomy 11:27
Hmm... i did not change the word in the scripture. In Deuteronomy, God commanded us to obey the commandments and keep the commandments. So you obey the commandments or you keep the commandments? I would say it is the same.
Yes I knew and agree that the word is "keep" and if you look back, i did not change the word when quoting from the bible. But i use the word obey in my own writing.
Looking back into Deuteronomy, it is hard to argue that the difference between obey and keep is the outside and the inside.
Daniel, you are right in that it is hard to argue about this. Some truths just cannot be spoken and accepted. Some truths are gifts from God and others are rewards from God for digging for truth as one would mine for gold and silver.
Obeying the commandments can be likened to walking a dog on a leash. It runs around you and even away from you till it hits the end of the leash. The dog obeys the leash, but is really not with you in spirit.
Keeping the commandments is like walking a dog that heals. It walks along side you, it doesn't need a leash to keep it under control, it is 'with' you.
