IS "THE GIFT OF TONGUES," OF MODERN PENTECOSTALISM BIBLICAL?
Posted : 27 Aug, 2009 12:38 PM
It is unbelievably presumptious of you "believers" to say that tongues and other gifts of the Holy Spirit are NOT for today. Unbelievably.
Why do I say that? Because you have to DEAL with the millions of people that do today speak in tongues and have experienced prophesying, healing, and other gifts. You have to deal with testimonies such as mine.
You can try to quote your way out if but if quoting scripture were the way to find truth we wouldn't have about - oh - 5,000 different denominations that call themselves Christian. Or is it 10,000 now? Anybody for 20,000?
Now there are only 3 possibilities if tongues is not for today.
1). Pentecostals are under mass hallucination
2). Pentecostals are demon possesed
3). Pentecostals are under the anointing of the Holy Spirit.
It seems pretty easy to eliminate the first possibility since Pentecostals come from every socio-economic group, every culture, every nation, every age, every denomination, every race.
So you are left with only two possibilities and if you deny the third then you are essentiallly calling me and all my brethren demon possessed.
But this is obviously false as well because a house divided against itself will not stand and nobody can say 'Jesus is Lord' except by the Holy Spirit.
So, there is only one sound conclusion and the anti-charismatic arguments are specious at best and blasphemous at worst.
IS "THE GIFT OF TONGUES," OF MODERN PENTECOSTALISM BIBLICAL?
Posted : 27 Aug, 2009 10:14 AM
Sorry Daniel but I think you are wrong about that and I have already explained myself in two posts and really don't feel like repeating it.
As my testimony and the testimony of millions clearly demonstrates - the Baptism of the Holy Spirit is a separate and latter work of grace than conversion. I was a Christian for several years before I received. The apostles were believers in Christ and even had faith enough to cast out demons but did not yet have the Holy Spirit.
God does not show favoritism. Why would he only give good gifts to some and not others?
The Word of God is clear - The Baptism of the Holy Spirit is separate from conversion and it is evidenced by speaking in tongues. It is usually imparted by the laying on of hands OR as in the Upper Room, by a mighty work of God on a group.
Do you want to follow the teachings of man or the teachings of the Holy Spirit? It is the Spirit that enables us to understand scripture - not our intellect. See 1 Cor 2:10-16
This is why I personally believe that girls and boys should be SEPARATED from each other from 7 to 12 grade, just like we used to do. We were so much more wiser back then. No wonder there is rampant teenage pregnancy and children are struggling in school. How do you concentrate on geometry when your hormones are raging and that cute girl or boy is sitting next to you? It is absolutely insane and contrary to all common sense and wisdom.
My advice to you as a man who went through the horrors of puberty is to just laugh and let him know it is normal and nothing to worry about. The worst thing I think you could do is give him reason to be embarrassed.
Also, I think 1 Cor 6:12-20 are good for him to study and discuss, especially verses 18-19. Let the emphasis be on the concept of our body as a temple of the HOLY SPIRIT and what this might mean.
I have to say that I CRINGE whenever I hear somebody so casually throw out the word "heretic."
As a student of history I can tell you this is an extremely ugly, dirty, filthy word that was used to justify burning people to death. We really should avoid this word at all costs.
Furthermore, we should never make presumptions about who is going to be "toast." That's really not our place to ever say. Ever.
You know, nobody understands everything and nobody is 100% correct so let us try to listen and be more understanding of each other. Myself included.
Now I am not personally a fan of Copeland but I will still call him a brother and I do say that the doctrine of prosperity is biblical and even if Copeland is not the best representative of the teaching it is still the Word of God.
We should not be a lover of money, however, and that is the key. It should not be our primary motivation. Love should.
Oh - and as for my favorite song - that changes from day to day and week to week. I get bored with the same song eventually.
Right now it is "Open the floodgates of Heaven, let it rain, let .... it ..... rain"
I have no idea who wrote it and I don't care but when we sing this song loudly for 15 minutes straight the whole church is breaking out in tongues and all kinds of manifestations of the HOLY SPIRIT. Praise God!
IS "THE GIFT OF TONGUES," OF MODERN PENTECOSTALISM BIBLICAL?
Posted : 26 Aug, 2009 08:26 PM
ProudlyCanadian - thanks for your great post and I agree with your bullet points.
ThatJennyGirl - very, very excellent point you made and I completely agree with you. We must distinguish between the gift of tongues, which is intended to be complemented by interpretation in the congregation, and tongues as a private prayer language for the personal edification of the believer.
Tristan - beautiful, beautiful testimony and it is somewhat similar to mine.
I went to a Calvinist Bible College where most of the teaching was anti-charismatic. Their beliefs not only sought to eliminate tongues as a possibility for believers but also healing, prophecy, miracles, and deliverance. While I was at the college, there was a tiny group of Pentecostals and they told me about the Baptism of the Holy Spirit and tongues and I must say I was sceptical but I did ask God for it if it was His will.
A couple of years later after graduation, while I was attending an anti-charismatic church, a charismatic man met me there (I don't know why he was attending) and befriended me. Long story short, I was strugging badly in my walk and I confessed to him my situation. He prayed with me and layed his hands on me and said - "you got it - now go home and pray in tongues."
Well, I can't say I had great faith and that night nothing happened. The next night I am in prayer in my room by myself in the dark and suddenly, after an immense presence filled the room, I can't speak - I can't move my mouth to form proper English. I felt God himself speak to me and told me to quit struggling and just relax and trust Him. Then it began to flow like a river and I must have prayed in tongues - several types of tongues - for the next 4 or 5 hours.
Now - nobody and I mean NOBODY can take this away from me. I know it is real. I was not taught it. I was not imagining it. I was not even in a Pentecostal or Charismatic church at the time. I was alone. I was not given to act like this in any way before. I was not on any drugs. IT HAPPENED and IT IS REAL.
IS "THE GIFT OF TONGUES," OF MODERN PENTECOSTALISM BIBLICAL?
Posted : 24 Aug, 2009 09:15 PM
Hello donpjt,
My emphasis on tongues should be obvious. Ole Cattle and I are responding as Pentecostals to the unbiblical attack on tongues by this poster. The scriptures are clear that tongues are intended for believers and are not something that just happened "back then."
The same applies to prophecy but you can't ignore that he said he wishes all men to speak in tongues. Nor can you ignore that it says that all who believe will speak in new tongues. Prophecy is not greater than tongues for the believer but is more helpful to the congregation and that is his point.
So, no, it is not "out of context" as you say but you are correct that I am making an emphasis and the emphasis is a response to this thread which in turn emphasizes tongues - though it is probable that ecclesia would also deny prophecy and other gifts.
Now as to your other attack. Let us be clear that the passage quoted from Acts was a long one regarding the confusion over the difference of the baptism of water and the baptism of the Holy Spirit. This passage is NOT about conversion - they were already believers - it is about the Baptism of the Holy Spirit. These believers - twelve in all - did not even KNOW that there was such a thing as a Holy Spirit!
Remember that Christ taught us in John that He would send the Comforter - and the word Comforter is not just theory but something that implies EXPERIENCE. We are to FEEL the power of the Holy Spirit as fire. It is not just some theoretical doctrine. And in fact, I have experienced this as have millions of Pentecostals.
Also, how many times does scripture have to say something for it to be true? So it does not mention the tongues every time? This is a poor argument. It is the logical fallacy of Argument From Silence.
We do know that EVERY single christian that was in the Upper Room at Pentecost was baptised in the Holy Spirit with tongues of fire. We do know that tongues was very prevalent in the church at Corinth but that Corinth is singled out because of a lot of disorder, division, and immaturity, not just over the gifts but about almost everything. Just because Paul doesn't talk about tongues in other epistles to other churches doesn't mean other Christians weren't speaking in tongues. Again, that would be the argument from silence and is a logical fallacy.
In conclusion, I will let scripture speak for itself. Pray about it and seek wisdom. Don't simply rely on dogma. I went to a Calvinist Bible college and believed as you did once but when it happens to you there is no denying it anymore.
IS "THE GIFT OF TONGUES," OF MODERN PENTECOSTALISM BIBLICAL?
Posted : 24 Aug, 2009 03:32 PM
"And these signs will accompany those that believe: In my name they will drive out demons; they will speak in NEW TONGUES; ..." (Mark 16:17)
"Therefore I tell you that no one who is speaking by the Spirit of God says, 'Jesus be cursed,' and no one can say, 'Jesus is Lord,' except by the Holy Spirit" (1 Cor 12:3)
"I would like every one of you to speak in tongues" (1 Cor 14:5)
"We do not know what we ought to pray for, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us with groans that words cannot express." (Rom 8:26)
ACTS 19:2-7 (excerpted):
"There he found some disciples and asked them, 'Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?'
They answered, 'No, we have not even heard that there is a Holy Spirit.' So Paul asked, 'Then what baptism did you receive?''John's baptism,' they replied. ...
On hearing this, they were baptized into the name of the Lord Jesus. When Paul placed his hands on them, the Holy Spirit came on them, and they spoke in tongues and prophesied"
