Charles Spurgeon preached a sermon called Free Will - A Slave . In it he gave an example of an Arminian prayer. If an Arminian were to be consistent with what he believes this is what he would pray:
"Lord, I thank thee I am not like those poor presumptuous Calvinists. Lord, I was born with a glorious free-will; I was born with power by which I can turn to thee of myself; I have improved my grace. If everybody had done the same with their grace that I have, they might all have been saved. Lord, I know thou dost not make us willing if we are not willing ourselves. Thou givest grace to everybody; some do not improve it, but I do. There are many that will go to hell as much bought with the blood of Christ as I was; they had as much of the Holy Ghost given to them; they had as good a chance, and were as much blessed as I am. It was not thy grace that made us to differ; I know it did a great deal, still I turned the point; I made use of what was given me, and others did not�that is the difference between me and them."
However, Spurgeon explains that even though an Arminian can preach arminian doctrines, he can never pray like that because that would be a sinful prayer.
yes, I agree that sex before marriage is wrong. It is the same sin as fornication in the Bible. Well, if a man says that he wants to try it out before marriage and thinks its not wrong, and calls himself a christian, you have to very much doubt his faith, I don't think that would be the right person to marry. It is different if someone falls into a sin Vs Personally wanting and encouraging other people to sin.
IS "THE GIFT OF TONGUES," OF MODERN PENTECOSTALISM BIBLICAL?
Posted : 29 Aug, 2009 12:39 AM
wow, this post is going on and on and on.. Good to get some more insight on this. Well, i can kind of see where Walter is getting at.
You see, no one today has the gifts which the apostles had, and no one after them ever had those kinds of gifts. The apostles gifts were equal to that of Jesus, they could heal anyone whom they were prompted to heal just like Jesus, irrespective of whether the person believed or not. Similarly they had the power of driving out demons, they had the authority, they had the gift of tongues, meaning to speak in another language when they addressed people of other nations, and they could use these gifts at their discretion. NO one after the apostles had the gifts that way. The Apostles were special that way. No one had the gift of healing like the way the apostles had it ,after the apostles, No one had the gift of driving out demons the way the apostles had it. Whatever healing happens now, and driving demons more happen through prayer than through authority. Like a person can pray for a person's healing. But he cannot heal everyone the same way Paul did, heal blind people, and make lame people walk instantaneously, (Whatever is shown on TV, most of it is faked) Even Paul did not heal Timothy when he was sick but instead told him to take wine. And No one now like the Apostles can lay hands and impart gifts to others, that was also reserved only for the Apostles, And if someone has any kind of gift today, it is individual, means the person might have a gift, but cannot impart it to anyone, nor does he have the same authority as did the apostles. It is true indeed that people who receive Spiritual gifts today also, but it is not the same as it was during pentecost. That outpouring of the Holy Spirit at pentecost was a special one, and more as a sign for people of all nations and for the church to increase dramatically. That ceased with the Apostles, I'm sure the gifts would have been given by Holy Spirit, but it is not the same way as during the times of the apostles when there were an abundance of Spiritual gifts. At least this is the way I can think about it.
IS "THE GIFT OF TONGUES," OF MODERN PENTECOSTALISM BIBLICAL?
Posted : 27 Aug, 2009 04:03 PM
@walter - Thats a completely new perspective, thanks a lot for that insight! I never knew that.
@kdhny - My problem with pentecostals is that they say that if I'm a true believer I should also speak in tongues. Is that written in the Bible? And besides they think its special to speak in tongues. And why only tongues? Clearly in the new testament tongues is seen kind of the lowest of the gifts of the Holy Spirit? So why the unnecessary exaltation of tongues which is not there in the Bible? Besides why should we try and get the gift of the Holy Spirit, If God wants, won't he give us? It is written that the Holy Spirit gives these gifts as he pleases, so its not of us to demand it and seek for it as a sign. And if you think of it, tongues can be easily faked. All the other gifts and signs which are said to accompany involve something supernatural and it needs adequate proof, but if today I can speak something which no one can understand and say that its tongues, I'm sure people will believe me. And people do fake tongues, not that I'm saying that all do, but lots do. And besides if I want something very badly and go after it and thinks that is what God wants, though it might not be what he wants, I will not rest until I get it. In such a matter I can fall into error and sin. So its not necessary that everyone who claims to speak in tongues today is speaking from the right Spirit too. And it does not mean that if you speak in tongues from a different spirit you are possessed either. And true Tongues has to got to do with salvation. Only a believer can speak in tongues, that is what the Bible says, so if a person who speaks in tongues today is tomorrow an unbeliever, do you think that he spoke in tongues from the right Spirit?? And are you sure everyone who speaks in tongues is a believer?
The right way to test whether anything is right is by the word of God. If a teaching does not conform to the Bible then its false, in such a case we don't have to look elsewhere for discernment When Satan tempted Jesus , the devil himself quoted from the word, which means everyone who uses the words does not mean right, so that is my argument against KC, he twists the word of God and very badly too, that its quite evident. And Jesus defended his ways as right by the correct interpretation of the word of God, so when you follow your spirit and discern something apart from the word of God, that is not the right way.
And to answer your questions.. Uzziah when he prevented the ark from falling, was disobeying a direct command from God, God had said no one was to touch the ark and anyone who touches it will die. Whatever Uzziah did, whether it be of good intention or not, he disobeyed God and he suffered the consequences. That should also teach us how God cannot overlook false teachings. If anything is against what God said, he does not ignore it and go over it, but that should teach us how careful we should be in acting or doing what we think is right, because its not our good intention which matters, but obeying God whether it looks good or bad to us.
And I can't understand how Jesus could be a prosperity preacher. When the rich man came to Jesus and asked what he had to be saved, Jesus told him to sell all his riches and give it to the poor. He did not become a follower of Jesus because he loved his money more. So when KC indulges more and more in money and lavishness he is forgetting that Jesus told the rich man to sell all he had and give it to the poor. KC is even taking from the poor by saying that if they give to him they will get 100 fold back. And many people in severe debt give money to KC. And many of them fall into more and more debt. How many poor have already been ruined, I have read some stories of poor people giving money to these ministries and becoming more poor and lost in debt. And KC inspite of having so much riches takes more and more from them. And directly goes against Jesus saying to give to the poor whatever you have. And Jesus who did not have a place to even sleep was not rich. He was not a prosperity teacher. period.
Love is the greatest command, but true love produces righteous anger. That is why God is also a jealous and angry God, he is angry at the way his people are mistreated and he is angry at how is word is twisted. God being perfect has righteous anger and anger is not a sin in itself if its righteous anger. So when you say to love everyone and forget their sin, that is against God's teaching. And Love is the greatest command because when you love God you will keep all other commandments and not ignore them. So if anyone takes the command to love God the most, they would be zealous about all the commandments of the Bible, because the characteristic of true love is that it will obey the commands of God and if you truly love God more than other people, I can say assuredly that you will not be able to put up with false teaching. God never tells us to respect man, but he only tells us to obey is commands and honor him. So if KC is someone who is misleading people by his wrong teachings, I don't find anything wrong is pointing it out
Finally I would join with tristan and say that KC is indeed a heretic because heretic is just anyone who teaches false teachings. We don't have to look at the history of the word. but only remember what it means. And KCs wrong teachings are horrible. And from his fruits I can't see anything of Godliness in him. Because he just twists the word of God and uses it for his own again. And the Bible warns us against such people too. Colossians 2:8 See to it that no one takes you captive by philosophy and empty deceit, according to human tradition, according to the elemental spirits of the world, and not according to Christ. Matthew 7:15 "Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing but inwardly are ravenous wolves." KC is ravenous for money and is hardly meek or self sacrificing as Christ is.
1 Timothy 6:3-7
If anyone teaches a different doctrine and does not agree with the sound words of our Lord Jesus Christ and the teaching that accords with godliness, he is puffed up with conceit and understands nothing.... Now there is great gain in godliness with contentment, for we brought nothing into the world, and we cannot take anything out of the world.But if we have food and clothing, with these we will be content"
So Paul teaches us to be content with food and clothing and nothing more, And now KC and other prosperity teachers teach us to be not content with whatever we have, but to wish for only the best and the way to get the best is by giving our money to them.. How very very wrong. I would feel condemned only if I don't speak again such horrific wrong teachings which even go against the teachings of even Paul the Apostle. And talk about not labeling his teachings as heretical. If I do something wrong, I should not expect God to put up with it, and nor should any Christian. But I stand condemned when people say I am wrong. But to accept a person who teaches wrong teaching and say it is ok is the same as accepting the wrong teaching.
And lastly we are not condemning you or anyone else on this site, we are just speaking out against a person who teaches wrong teachings, This does not deal with anyone personally. And sometimes speaking out the truth might sound harsh and unloving, but we don't intend it that way, our love for Christ makes us speak out against false teachings!!
I think whatever you say is right, but I think the mistake most of us make is just speaking the truth out without love, I know I'm very guilty of that because when I see something wrong, I just go plainly at war against it, though I wish I could do it lovingly, As far as I have seen most people (including myself) have an opinion about something and we are not ready to change it. And more than that, all human beings have the tendency to defend whatever wrong they have done. So for you or for me I guess its easy to say that it is wrong for a separated person to date. Because we know that we are not in that situation. But for a person in that situation, we probably will never know what goes through such a person's mind. disappointment, sadness, and most of the time in such a phase we need someone, sometimes people just hope another person might be there who will erase all the bad memories, so they might just jump ahead into dating. Now yes, according to the Bible its wrong to do that, because that means we are stuck upon ourselves and not thinking of our partner, but only thinking we are the victim, but the Bible says to be forgive and reconcile even if your brother sins against you. So as a Christian it is our duty to do that. But again as sinful men and weak, many might be broken hearted and weakened faith, so instead of looking upon God they try to find another person who might bring happiness. All we can do for such people is pray, they are already hurt and possibly, and it is our duty to speak the truth, but maybe in a loving manner. Just imagine you have a weakness and you are really upset about it and someone who does not have that weakness comes and says that all those who have that weakness are disobeying God when you know how you struggle with it. That might hurt more than it does good. Well, so maybe thats the reason people don't respond positively or take your words as judgemental. I don't think there is anything wrong with your words though. Hope I did not make it extra confusing :toomuch:
Dear Sister, I don't like to see you in delusion about the gospel because of Kenneth Copeland, So I have to say more. When you say that God wants us to be rich and prosperous you are overlooking all the statements of Jesus and his apostles when they bless the poor all the time, but there is no blessings for rich, but mostly woes and warnings only.
Jesus's words for the rich
But woe to you who are rich, for you have received your consolation. Luke 6:24
James 5:1 Come now, you rich, weep and howl for the miseries that are coming upon you.
Then said Jesus unto his disciples, Verily I say unto you, That a rich man shall hardly enter into the kingdom of heaven. And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God. -- Matthew 19:23-24, Mark 10:23-25
Being a Christian is such a torture in so many countries, in fact more than half of the countries of the world. Besides Kenneth Copeland likes to be rich and he wants to save his money, He attracts people to his lavish lifestyle promising that this is what God wants to give. and gone are the preachings of repentance, and that you are a sinner and all the things Jesus said about faith, perseverance, trials, tribulation and Jesus promise of trouble and its all be changed to "God wants you to be rich". as if that is what the Bible is screaming out. So Jesus promised trials and tribulation if you become a Christian and his consolation was that He will be always with us, but now KC promises us wealth and prosperity instead of trials and tribulation. So who should we believe KC or Jesus? And now the Government asked him to show his income he never produced it. And when he is blinding other believers, they don't realise it. When you say you are partnering with Kenneth Copeland, you are just giving him more and more money for his indulgences, like buying jet Planes, having own airstrips, spending time only the most luxurious hotels and vacations.
And Jesus, the captain of our salvation said, "Foxes have holes and the birds of the air have nests, but the son of man does not have anywhere to lay his head" And that too only because he chose to come to the poorest of the poor.
Jesus says
Luke 4:20-21. "The Spirit of the LORD is upon Me, because He appointed Me to preach the gospel to the poor.
James 2:5. Did not God choose the poor of this world to be rich in faith and heirs of the kingdom which He promised to those who love Him?
Ps. 140:12. I know that the LORD will maintain the cause of the afflicted, and justice for the poor.
God isn't a conservative; he's a revolutionary. He not only takes the side of the poor; he puts himself in their place. In the very alarming parable of the sheep and the goats he speaks of salvation as depending on how we treat the poorest and the most afflicted.
And when the Bible says that Jesus died so that we could become rich it speaks of riches in poverty, the riches of faith and not material riches.
"There is one who makes himself rich, yet has nothing; and one who makes himself poor, yet has great riches" (Proverbs 13:7). "In the house of the righteous there is much treasure, but in the revenue of the wicked is trouble" (Proverbs 15:6). God is not speaking of physical treasures in these verses.
I expect trials and tribulations in my life, not because I'm a weak believer, but because I believe Jesus more than anyone else and his words, and his promise that he will be with me in my trials is my consolation, not the hope that I will be blessed with money and wealth. God also said that "Blessed are you when men persecute and revile you, for great is your reward in where?? Heaven, not earth. So Jesus himself did not teach us to expect rewards on earth. And I don't have to believe it just because KC says it.
