Twosparrow, you asked if I believe having another thing or person before God is the same as making an idol.
To that I would say no. It is acceptable, as DontHitThatMark said, to create an idol or image of God as an act of worship and praise to him and to give him glory. Its intent is to remind its creator and those who view it of the awesome power and grace of our God, the works he has done, and the salvation he gives to us through Christ. When used in this way, I see nothing wrong with it. They must be regarded in their proper place as something that honors God and points us to Him. To give them our worship is wrong.
As I understand you, you are saying even in this context an idol is wrong and forbidden. If you are saying that the act of creating a carving of anything on heaven or earth is wrong, I cannot agree. When the Lord says, "You shall not make for yourself an image in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below." his intent is not to put artists out of business.
To carve a fish out of a stone or piece of wood as a work of art is not wrong. It glories in God's creation and gives him praise and due honor. If you worship and put your trust and your faith in it, then you are breaking God's command. That is the point he is driving home. It is precisely because the Israelites were prone to this kind of worship that attention is drawn to it and it is made explicit. Context is key. He is telling them don't worship my creation and the things in it. Do not put them first, but worship me.
Dont, I see your point. Are they necessary? Absolutely not. Should we bow or serve them? Not in worship as our God. Yet we serve people all the time. We respect kings, rulers, and those in authority as God's earthly representatives. Bowing is a gesture of that respect. It need not be worship. Likewise when we kneel at the cross it is not in worship to it, but in humble recognition of the sacrifice Jesus made for us so we could have forgiveness and eternal life. When I look at an image of Jesus holding a lamb, I do not worship the picture. Instead I am reminded that he is my Good Shepherd and he knows me as one of his sheep. What is sinful in that? Yes, it is possible to begin giving that object your focus instead of God, but that is an issue of attitude and thought. Its creation is not sinful. He did not order the high places, altars, and idols be destroyed because they were carved wood and stone. He commanded his people to destroy them because they were being worshipped apart from God and placed before him. He is a jealous God who demands the right recognition as the only true God and only object of our worship.
Luther presents the Ninth and Tenth Commandments this way:
The Ninth Commandment.
Thou shalt not covet thy neighbor's house.
What does this mean?--Answer.
We should fear and love God that we may not craftily seek to get our neighbor's inheritance or house, and obtain it by a show of [justice and] right, etc., but help and be of service to him in keeping it.
The Tenth Commandment.
Thou shalt not covet thy neighbor's wife, nor his man-servant, nor his maid-servant, nor his cattle, nor anything that is his.
What does this mean?--Answer.
We should fear and love God that we may not estrange, force, or entice away our neighbor's wife, servants, or cattle, but urge them to stay and [diligently] do their duty.
In effect, he makes the destination between property owned and those living within our neighbors care. You may argue that it is all covetousness and that distinction is artificial. I would say it helps us understand that we can be covetous toward others in addition to things. You may say the issue of putting another before God and the issue of worshipping or bowing to graven images are quite distinct. I view them as inextricably bound.
@Mercy, I appreciate your comments. My response is this: I can't make it more clear that nothing is deleted.
As we number them, here is the First Commandment in it's entirety as drawn from Scripture.
You shall have no other gods before me. You shall not make for yourself an image in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below. You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the parents to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me, but showing love to a thousand generations of those who love me and keep my commandments. Ex 20: 3-6
Nothing is dropped. The difference is solely numbering. We take all of that as one, cohesive unit. Yes we do use just verse 3 in most listings just as you use only verse 8 in listing the fourth commandment. There are further commands there also to work for six days and rest. It gets specific on those issues just as the first does on gross idolatry and it's consequences. That we do this in no way ignores the rest or regards it as less important as part of God's command to not put others before him.
It is of course wrong to edit or delete from God's Word. I would cite the same verse from Revelation as you. That is not being done. We hold all four verses of Ex 20:3-6 as the first commandment. Can I be more clear?
As for numbering and splitting them, it is not as clear as modern bibles make it to be. It nowhere explicitly numbers them that we can claim one way is intended by God. Indentation and versification are added and not part of God's holy, inspired Word.
Twosparrows, do note that Hebrew at that time of writing contained no spaces between words and no punctuation. I wouldn't expect to find a period or a comma. It compounds the difficulty of making agreed divisions on the commandments. One should not wonder that some do it one way and others another.
@Dont You are right. Idolatry in such a form is not sin. It is at the point that you bow down and worship the image rather than the true God of whom it is to remind you. When one speaks of "committing idolatry" that is the way I would interpret it. Whether named as such, bowing down and worshiping anything other than God puts another before Him. Putting another before him is to worship another and bow down to it (in spirit if not in body). That is why we take those verses as a cohesive unit. There are hardly ulterior motives. I wouldn't even know what to suggest as one. For my part, it certainly isn't to get away with bowing to idols in worship as some are suggesting. It's important to, to note that God is dealing with the heart and what we esteem most there. One may bow to a king or kneel at a cross. It is not a sin of idolatry but merely showing reverence. If one's trust is placed in that person or thing, that is another issue.
Apology accepted. Directing this at no one in particular, I have zero interest in the sorts of personal attacks and discrediting that I see occurring in these forums. It deeply saddens me to see it happen among brothers and sisters in Christ. On the other hand, I am more than willing to engage in the discussions insofar as it allows us to come to a mutual understanding of each one's position.
To address your points:
*First of all since when is the Bible "commentary" ?
Never. Perhaps it was a poor and misleading choice of words. My intention is not to hold one portion of Scripture above or below any other.
*Second of all this particular piece of scripture is a "official document" a treaty, covenant stipulation of ten. It does NOT contain commentary!
No, but the Lord furthers his instruction. I'll take the example of his command to "Remember the Sabbath day by keeping it holy." In any common listing of the the commandments, that is how it generally would read regardless of the number assigned. Yet, it is natural to ask what that means and how one keeps the Sabbath holy. The Lord answers that by instructing them to work for six days and rest on the seventh. He makes no exception for man, woman, child, or animal, and he goes even so far as to state his reason: "For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, but he rested on the seventh day. Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy."
*Thirdly how can you say the content is preserved when 82 words (a complete commandment) describing something not found else where in the official document is DELETED?
If your going to count words, there are verses dropped in every common listing of the commandments. I gave you one such example above. You may consider all of that part of his command to honor the Sabbath Day. I won't argue that. The fact remains it is abbreviated in common use. (Let me know if you disagree on that point.) That is exactly what is done in the common listing of the First Commandment by Roman Catholic and Lutheran churches. (For that matter it is the same with the Jewish listing, though for them it is the second commandment. They have yet a different numbering, the first being "I am the Lord your God." taken from verse 2.) We list the first commandment as "You shall have no other gods before me." You may consider verses 4-6 to be the complete listing of the first commandment (when taken with verse 3) or further instruction on it. The difference is semantics. Either way, it is directive from God that is to be kept by his people. Put another way, you cannot worship an idol or graven image and say no one comes before the Lord. All of it is idolatry with instruction on a specific, gross form that was immensely relevant to the Israelites when Moses received the commandments. (Remember, they were out making a golden calf). It is no less relevant today. We simply assume this and all other ways we place things before God as part of the First Commandment. In no way is it lost. Point any Lutheran or Roman Catholic to those verses, describe those behaviors. They will answer with the first commandment. We consider it no less acceptable. The words are not commonly given just as you would not commonly give verse 11 when asked to recite the fourth commandment.
*Lastly my Hebrew Interlinear Bible has a comma in the commandment that was split....not a period!
This is where I would simply reiterate that the Bible neither numbers or determines the respective order (meaning order is not important) of the commandments. Jews have done it one way. Lutherans and Catholics do it another way. Eastern Orthodox and Reformed churches do it still another way. One may make more sense than another, but sense is a dangerous tool for interpreting Scripture. I am not saying one way is correct or the other wrong. I would actually argue the difference in numbering is not important.
DontHitThatMark, I'm not Roman Catholic, but the Lutheran church holds to the same numbering. I'll try and give you an answer to your question.
First, I think most would agree it's not really a divisive doctrinal issue. The Bible does not number the commandments. It's for that reason that numbering differences have occurred amongst different denominations. Moreover, despite the differences in numbering, the content is preserved.
For reference, Exodus 20:3-6:
3 �You shall have no other gods before[a] me.
4 �You shall not make for yourself an image in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below. 5 You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the parents to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me, 6 but showing love to a thousand generations of those who love me and keep my commandments.
And also Exodus 20:17:
17 �You shall not covet your neighbor�s house. You shall not covet your neighbor�s wife, or his male or female servant, his ox or donkey, or anything that belongs to your neighbor.�
So where do the differences come from? Many Reformed churches make verse 3 the First Commandment and verses 4-6 the Second. Verse 17 is then taken in it's entirety as the 10th Commandment. In the Lutheran church (and I would imagine the Roman Catholic church as well) verse 3 is considered the First Commandment. Verses 4-6 then expand on it. They are considered commentary because to make an idol and worship it is to put another before the true God as forbidden in verse 3. The Ninth and Tenth are drawn from the two separate directives in verse 17. Namely, it is split that the Ninth commandment is "You shall not covet your neighbor�s house." and the Tenth, "You shall not covet your neighbor�s wife, or his male or female servant, his ox or donkey, or anything that belongs to your neighbor."
Again, the reason is no more complex than that Scripture provides no explicit numbering for the commandments to follow. That delineation is determined by church bodies. Remember, too, the indentation and versification in modern bibles is not divinely inspired. :glow:
A follow-up question: What REALLY makes a man or woman "a match" for each other? What are the MOST important things?
Posted : 24 Nov, 2010 03:01 PM
To my way of thinking, real and lasting love is selfless. You serve the other only out of love, not to get something for yourself or even so that they will love you back. By that way of thinking, the question I would ask myself is "What are the needs she has and what am I able to offer her?" That means I must know myself and get to know her to determine if what I can give are the same things she really needs. She should be asking the same questions. Only if we each feel we are able to serve the other would I call it a match.
Are Christian women getting too picky these days............?
Posted : 1 Nov, 2010 05:26 AM
Regarding virginity it's a case in point. For some it's high priority and that's fine. I refuse to give it up before marriage and I would be glad to know my wife regarded it important enough to do the same. But what is really important to me is her faith in action now and her desire to serve and grow in the grace of her Lord. If I can see the fruit of her faith, yet she has made past mistakes and is not a virgin, even has a child out of wedlock, that one fact isn't going to be a dealbreaker. That same grace covers it. That's just my take from what I find most important.
Are Christian women getting too picky these days............?
Posted : 1 Nov, 2010 05:10 AM
Going against the tide here: NO, they're not too picky. Christian men and women alike are called to higher standards in what they seek personally and in a relationship. That divorce rates within the Church rival those outside it might be cited as evidence that they're not picky enough. If a woman says she wants a man who is fervent in his faith, a spiritual leader, grounded in his values, family oriented, and a committed provider, then I commend her for desiring a Biblically sound character in her husband. Too few do. Furthermore, if she has preferences regarding physical appearance or sense of humor�aren't they just as valid as your own?
If there's a problem it's that, just as in all areas of our Christian life, we don't always act in accordance with our priorities. When the guys are lined up outside her door or flooding her inbox with those "Hey, 'sup?" messages, it's much easier to pare 'em down by "tall, dark, handsome, successful" than "devoted to his Lord" EVEN IF that's what really matters.
While it's okay to go for what is acceptable in these other areas, We would do well as Christians to resist snap judgements and start at the top of our priority list much sooner. It probably means more effort getting to know someone, because it can take a while to understand another's faith and values, but it pays off. Not only do you increase your chances of meeting someone who is compatible where it counts, but you can slow down and just enjoy the process of getting to know fellow believers in Christ.
Just wondering... Dose anyone feel frustrated they have not met "the one" yet?? If so, do you think it could be because God is preparing you both for each other by way of pruning and refining in certian areas?? God's timing is always the best timing. "Our" timing is what's gets us in less than favorable situations. What are your thoughts??
Posted : 1 Nov, 2010 05:07 AM
Definitely God is at work. I'd be mighty afeared if he weren't! :) I've stayed a night in the frustrated camp, but I've learned it's a mark of selfishness. It comes when we are pushing for what we want in our own time rather than what God wants in His time. It shows up when we are only interested in finding "the one" and we see every failed attempt as a nuisance and a waste of time. If you're willing to build friendships, learn, and grow along the way, it can be an enjoyable and enriching process.
