I do not like the word booze, it suggests drunkenness which is wrong. Alcohol can be good or bad depending on how it is used.
Truthslinger, you keep accusing us of making the Bible fit what we want it to say. But........isn't that exactly what YOU are doing? You say that since we know that God does not like alcohol, the Bible must forbid it. Yet you have not produced one shred of evidence that it does. First those Bible verses that you quote very obviously refer to drunkenness, which we all agree is wrong.
Proverbs 20:5 "Wine is a mocker, strong drink is raging. And whosoever is deceived thereby is not wise." Now, I should think it obvious that if your drinking leads to raging and mocking, then you must have been drinking WAY too much! And I should think it just as obvious, that if you are "deceived by it", then you are DRUNK!
Isaiah 5:11 "Woe unto them that rise up early in the morning, that they may follow strong drink; that continue into the night, till wine inflame them!" Now this is obviously a description of drunkenness! If someone gets up early to drink, and stays up late to drink, and has physical ailments because of all that alcohol, then it is obvious that they are a serious alcoholic!
Isaiah 28:7 "But they also have erred through wine, and through strong drink are out of the way; the priest and the prophet have erred through strong drink, they are swallowed up of wine, they are out of the way through strong drink; they err in vision, they stumble in judgment." If someone "errs in vision" and "stumbles in judgment" they certainly have "erred through wine" they are DRUNK!
Proverbs 23:29-35 "Who hath woe? Who hath sorrow? Who hath contentions? Who hath babbling? Who hath wounds without cause? Who hath redness of eyes? They that tarry long at the wine; they that go to seek mixed wine. Look not thou upon the wine when it is red, when it giveth his color in the cup, when it moveth itself aright. At last it biteth like a serpent, and stingeth like an adder. Thine eyes shall behold strange women, and thine heart utter perverse things. Yea, thou shalt be as he that lieth down in the midst of the sea, or as he that lieth upon the top of a mast. "They have stricken me," shalt thou say, "and I was not sick; they have beaten me, and I felt it not: When shall I awake? I will seek it yet again."." Now this one is especially obvious in it's meaning. The ailments that this passage starts with seem to be quite plain descriptions of drunkenness. The description of "looking upon the wine", is describing someone who seems obsessed with wine. And certainly, the last part of the passage is describing the behavior of a person who is seriously addicted, an alcoholic, a DRUNKARD!
There are many verses in the Bible which warn of the dangers of slothfulness and love of sleep. It would be just as reasonable to say that "we should never sleep", because of those verses, as it is to say that "we should never drink", from the above quoted verses.
Now on to the New Testament.
You claim that the New Testament never says alcoholic wine. Excuse me? I only speak English, so I cannot speak for the other languages, but in English, when you say "wine" you mean the alcoholic beverage! Nobody would think that you meant grape juice. I would assume that there is the same distinction in all the other languages that the New Testament has been written in. Several posts back Zaohagios mentioned that this is indeed the case with Hebrew. I cannot confirm this statement, but I would like to hope that everyone posting here is doing their best to only say what is true. Besides the language thing, there is also the context of the statements. Do you really think that grape juice was being served at the wedding? As SilverFire said, that is outrageously unlikely! Also, I did not see any substantial difference, of the actual substance of the verse that you two were quoting, between the two translations. The difference seems purely that of using different words. There many references in the New Testament to wine. Nowhere is there given any reason to think that it was not alcoholic, rather the evidence is strongly in the other direction. How about the parable of the wineskins, the "old wine" and "the new" ? I would think that ALCOHOLIC wine would not have been used in a parable in such uncondemning fashion if we are supposed to condemn it! You say that the wine used at the Last Supper was unfermented because Jesus said "I will not drink henceforth of this fruit of the vine, until that day when I drink it new with you in My Father's kingdom." But I do not see how that proves whether the wine used THEN was fermented or not.
Now if you have any more evidence, please share it. I am sure that we would all try to judge fairly whether it proves your point or not. But please do not just say yet again that we are wrong, without any evidence to back it up.
Now, of course, alcohol is dangerous. It must be used with caution if it is used at all. Some people really have a problem and "one glass is too many......and a hundred is not enough." Those people ought to never touch it.
But in some homes, you can serve a bottle of wine along with a fancy meal, and those who choose to have some will have a glass or two. Nobody will get even tipsy, and they will all go soberly about their business. Even beer can be used moderately. I know good men who only touch it rarely, and when they have A beer, they have just one. Why would they have more than is good for them? Even what has been referred to hear as "spirits" can be used responsibly. High quality whiskey is a great flavoring for holiday eggnog and cakes.
Too summarize; I do not think that the Bible forbids alcohol. Some people CANNOT drink it safely and some CAN. By the way, it has even been proved to be beneficial to health!
Of course, if you cannot be moderate, DON"T TOUCH IT! But if you, as some people that I know, can be moderate, then CAREFULLY and RESPONSIBLY enjoy some! :-)
I too am very frustrated by the lack of sexual morality is our society! Yes indeed, we must be as good as we can be, and encourage those around us to be so too. :-)
Peter, you seem to be equating "liberal" with "dark". Liberal, used merely as an english word, means generous, or tolerant, or favorable to progress or reform, or a political stance. These things can be either a good or bad thing. Certainly, to give liberally is a good thing. Reform, can certainly be a good thing. So can progress, surely it is a good thing that blacks and women can vote. I assume that you meant that in a political sense. But even then it has good points as well as bad. Now, I certainly agree that many of the things that the democratic party strives for are wrong, most obviously abortion, which is an abominable sin. But the conservative party is probably just as evil! One of the most horribly evil things happening in American government right now, that I can think of, is this issue about the "bush tax cuts". Did you know that the richest 2% of Americans, hold the majority of the countries' wealth? And did you further know that they actually get taxed less, for the amount of wealth that they have, than most Americans? Yet for some reason, the republicans are claiming that they should not have the same tax burden as everyone else. They say that the tax cuts should stay in place. Now, that in it's self is merely unfair. But, these same republicans also get mad and try to stop it when government money is used for things like.......helping the unemployed. So, according to these "conservatives", we should tax the super rich less than everybody else, and let the poor who cannot find work (or the money to bribe the greedy politicians), go homeless and hungry. Now that looks a lot like favoring the wealthy over the poor. Why it looks like giving the wealthy a gift with the money that should have been used to maybe keep a roof over families heads. It is atrocious! Especially from a Christian standpoint, which says that everyone is of worth in the eyes of God, yes, even those who are to poor to "lobby" (bribe), politicians! So do not blame the "liberals" for the nation's problems. Rather, blame pride, greed, and stupidity!
Joshua David, I fully agree with behaving in a pure way. It certainly is wrong to bestow kisses in a casual fashion! But, I do think that a good and pure way to say "yes", to a proposal might be a kiss!
This is an interesting thread. I have never read Harry Potter, so cannot say anything about that. But I love Narnia!
Stormcountry, You say that in Narnia, Aslan is not directly connected with God. I would disagree. First of all, there is the very obvious allegory in The Lion the Witch and The Wardrobe. Then, in The Magician's Nephew, Aslan creates a world. In the Dawn Treader He tells Lucy and Edmund that they were brought to Narnia because, through knowing Him there, they might know Him better in their own world. Then in The Last Battle, it is said that ALL of the REAL countries are only the spurs of the great mountains Of Aslans country (which means heaven of course). :-)
Hey everyone, if you haven't done so already, check out Lewis' other books, the ones for grown-ups. They are even better!
