"The Bible's Main Message Is the Gospel About Jesus Christ Himself"
Posted : 25 Apr, 2012 06:29 PM
Beautiful topic, sister Jude. The very Scriptures that we search because we think they have eternal life witness of Him and so should we! Only the Lord Jesus is worthy of all praise, worship, and honor. He alone should be preached And He alone should be emulated by us.
PJ ASKS: Elder is used in scripture as having more than one meaning does it not?
NOPE. It always refers to older people. It is used over 60 times in the New Testament and refers to older men. Even Peter and John referred themselves to ELDERS in their letters which were dated after the 60ADs. If these men were elders BEFORE then then why did they not state it?
Oh. By the way, PJ (That rhymed!)
You still didn't answer my question. Why not so, bro?
Elders: (Greek presbuteros) simply means an older person in the world, its customs and in all its religious aspects. The best definition and example of the word is Acts 2:17 as old men. Christian "rulers" alter the word to a position of power and authority to separate themselves in different "spiritual" classes of maturity and authority from one another.
Overseers: (Greek episkope) to be attentive to an outcome, or situation that only God can redeem, rectify, and rescue from. To be aware, or mindful, inspection. The word is best described in Luke 19:44 by way of Christ's "visitation". It is a delegation that is expected to be carried out by the common believer in Christ to one's self, others, and the faith at all times. This word has been changed by a man and the word has been elevated to a place of authority and "job" by adding an EXTRA WORD (OFFICE) in the Greek text (which is not clearly there) in 1 Tim 3:1, to keep order among others who are considered to be lower in stature and intellect compared to himself by calling himself a "Bishop."
Not in light of scripture to a student of the word of god and a mind renewed to the will of God.
ME: Can you show me, oh student of the Word of God where the word "OFFICE" is used in Scripture by way of the Greek, brother? I'll give you a hint just this once. It is in Romans 12:4. Greek word is "praxis". Can you show me this word in a1 Timothy 3:1, bro?
*Looks back and notices that he slipped his mind and gave PJ the answer instead of a hint, so that PJ doesn't commit sin by using his in hopes that no one catches it.*
ME: This is a good saying and worthy or re-posting, PJ. Because the "mind" is what we are to use when discerning from the Scriptures,brother. The SAME mind that gave you the sense to say what you have been (beit reasonable or no.) as of late without any proof to show otherwise. And to be honest, brother, if you also deny this fact, then you are admitting that you are basing your words on nothing but "the senses."
I thank you sister Jude for your blessings and encouragement. I am most blessed to see you are ever diligent to seek the Lord at His Word. This is still an ongoing study, I assure you. The next issue to come up is Alexander. He seems to be the same Alexander of Acts 19:33. If this is so, then we also have to conclude that He was not of the Christian Faith but of the Faith of the Jews which would mean the circumcision party. It makes more sense this way, because Paul would still not have considered to separate the Faith in Christ with that of the faith of the Jews because he was still preaching the same God from the same Scriptures with the exception of the Messiah having been come. So Paul would naturally say that the ones who strayed concerning the faith would be the Jews who opposed his gospel at that time. Does that make sense?
May all who call on the name of Christ be bountifully blessed with all of the riches that he has already bestowed upon us in Christ Jesus.
Hello, my beautiful brothers and sisters in Christ Jesus! I hope and pray that the Lord God is revealing and bestowing all of His to you all on a minutely basis.
I have been looking into the Scriptures and trying to see a certain pattern by way of "offices" that certain believers in Christ are to fill within the body and am still continuing to do so, but I thought it best to share what I found so far with the brethren in order to see if the Lord is in agreement with me through you all. I believe that the modern "rules" of the religious are clearly seen in the "rulers" they create because these "rulers" change a simple word that is applied as a solemn duty appointed to ALL believers by God and change it to an elevated official office that can be only ordained by chosen men who like to "lord" things over one another.
The simple truths of Scriptural exegesis and hermeneutics are so highly untaught by these men that they, themselves are easily deceived by their own teachings and made slaves of it.
Elders: (Greek presbuteros) simply means an older person in the world, its customs and in all its religious aspects. The best definition and example of the word is Acts 2:17 as old men. Christian "rulers" alter the word to a position of power and authority to separate themselves in different "spiritual" classes of maturity and authority from one another.
Overseers: (Greek episkope) to be attentive to an outcome, or situation that only God can redeem, rectify, and rescue from. To be aware, or mindful, inspection. The word is best described in Luke 19:44 by way of Christ's "visitation". It is a delegation that is expected to be carried out by the common believer in Christ to one's self, others, and the faith at all times. This word has been changed by a man and the word has been elevated to a place of authority and "job" by adding an EXTRA WORD (OFFICE) in the Greek text (which is not clearly there) in 1 Tim 3:1, to keep order among others who are considered to be lower in stature and intellect compared to himself by calling himself a "Bishop."
Servants (or better yet, TO SERVE): (Greek diakoneo) SOMETHING THAT EVERY BELIEVER IN CHRIST IS SUPPOSED TO DO TO ONE ANOTHER BY WAY OF DISPENSING ONE'S GOD GIVEN ABILITY TO HELP ONE ANOTHER HOWEVER IS FITTING GIVEN THE CIRCUMSTANCES. To wait upon, to serve. Best description and definition of the word is used in Mark 10:44-45 and 1 Peter 4:10-11 by SERVE. Man's interpretation of the word is changed to DEACON and elevated to a specialized office of authority that has authority over the common pew sitting Christian.
No wonder why the common Christian has been reduced to just sitting in his/her self appointed pew to go learn how to be a good Christian on a Sunday. It is because their whole identity in Christ has been taken away by the ones who "rule" over them.
How did i come up with this you ask? By simple prayer, study, and asking the Lord to guide me and this is what He is leading me to find out.
Let me give you some back ground on how this came about.
I am doing a study on the book of Timothy. You know the simple basics of when and why it was written according to the events of the book of Acts (Acts 19:20 seems to be the starting point for those who are interested.) and it seems that there are some seriously misinterpreted teachings because of the things in the epistle to Timothy aren't fully put within their historical and cultural context. I was looking at it as a whole and couldn't understand how men had to be put in roles and women were separated yet they too, were called the same as these "positions" by Paul and others in the Bible.
Like "deacons" for example. Paul calls Phoebe a "servant" in Romans 16:1 with the same word he uses in 1 Tim 3:8 as "deacons" and then it seems as if the same word is translated to a position specifically delegated to a man in Tim 3:12. BUT IT CLEARLY ISN'T THE CASE FROM THE ACTUAL GREEK SCRIPTURES!
Here. I will post the Greek first and then the explanation along with the example for it later on.
1Ti 3:8 diakonous osautos semnous me dilogous me oino pollo prosechontas me aischrokerdeis
1Ti 3:9 echontas to musterion tes pisteos en kathara suneidesei
1Ti 3:10 kai outoi de dokimazesthosan proton eita diakoneitosan anegkletoi ontes
1Ti 3:11 gunaikas osautos semnas me diabolous nephaleous pistas en pasin
1Ti 3:12 diakonoi estosan mias gunaikos andres teknon kalos proistamenoi kai ton idion oikon
KJV
1Ti 3:8 Likewise must the deacons be grave, not doubletongued, not given to much wine, not greedy of filthy lucre;
1Ti 3:9 Holding the mystery of the faith in a pure conscience.
1Ti 3:10 And let these also first be proved; then let them use the office of a deacon, being found blameless.
1Ti 3:11 Even so must their wives be grave, not slanderers, sober, faithful in all things.
1Ti 3:12 Let the deacons be the husbands of one wife, ruling their children and their own houses well.
ESV
1Ti 3:8 Deacons likewise must be dignified, not double-tongued, not addicted to much wine, not greedy for dishonest gain.
1Ti 3:9 They must hold the mystery of the faith with a clear conscience.
1Ti 3:10 And let them also be tested first; then let them serve as deacons if they prove themselves blameless.
1Ti 3:11 Their wives likewise must be dignified, not slanderers, but sober-minded, faithful in all things.
1Ti 3:12 Let deacons each be the husband of one wife, managing their children and their own households well.
Ever wonder WHY a DEACON'S WIFE (verse 11) must be dignified while the overseer's wife is not really mentioned by way of how she needs to be in order for this overseer to be considered? Better yet. Ever wonder WHY a wife, or a woman is mentioned AT ALL in this "role" for a MAN'S "ROLE?"
Well, here is the why:
There is a small "interpretive" anomaly in the Greek that has been influenced by the authoritarian, or "lord" minded man to change a wording in the actual Greek to a DEACON'S WIFE INSTEAD OF A "DEACON WIFE" OR "DEACON WOMAN" and thereby limiting the "role" to man appointed instead of an equally shared one. You don't believe me? Check it out for yourself. Heck. I'm not the only person who ever saw this interpretive dificulty in the language and just newly spoke of it. RESEARCH IT for yourself and you'll be amazed at what you find.
Look at the 1889 Darby New Testament translation for example. Why doesn't he translate verse 11 to "the deacon's wife? Does the translation change the meaning of the verse now?
1Ti 3:8 Ministers, in like manner, grave, not double-tongued, not given to much wine, not seeking gain by base means,
1Ti 3:9 holding the mystery of the faith in a pure conscience.
1Ti 3:10 And let these be first proved, then let them minister, being without charge against them .
1Ti 3:11 The women in like manner grave, not slanderers, sober, faithful in all things.
1Ti 3:12 Let the ministers be husbands of one wife, conducting their children and their own houses well:
Pay attention to verse 11.
This is some seriously oppressive stuff here. I was having some serious problems reconciling some "roles" between men and women because of what we are taught and what Paul called and entreated as fellow co-laborers in Scripture like Phoebe (Rom 16:1), Euodia, and Syntyche (Phil 4:2). This women not being able to teach stuff is doing exactly what Christ has been telling us over and over within the Scriptures when he says that we aren't to "lord" things over one another like they do in the world.
I know what you're thinking here. "Salvatore Vavalle! You are completely off your rocker! This is so outrageously new that it can't be true!"
I know what you mean! I thought it was odd too! But careful searching of the Scriptures REVEALS IT AND HAS DONE IT throughout history but never stressed upon within the faith, yet commonly giving a woman of God a "position" within the church that had to be in accordance with SCRIPTURE THAT WAS APPOINTED FOR A MAN IN 1 TIMOTHY! Didn't that EVER SEEM ODD TO YOU? I do admit this is a shocker to me because i not once ever bother to question such a thing because i was a man in Christ BUT WHOA!
Now, I'm still looking into this but the "woman in church teaching" thing is also in question too. How you might ask? Well, let's look at the cultural outlay of the land that the epistle was written in and to whom it was written to according to the context. The whole culture of the Gentiles was not like the Jewish one. Women, although very servile in Judaism were liberated by Christianity because He deemed them to be equals among men and able to be in the same room with men when worshiping God as opposed to the Jewish way of separating women outside the congregation of men.
But for the Gentile culture, the woman was a prominent one and could sometime be considered to be superior to the man. If you read the Pauline epistles you will see that most of these gatherings were within WOMEN'S HOUSEHOLDS. These women were prominent according to Luke and Paul. So, with that in mind, women had a way of gaining notoriety by way of buying their freedom and gaining a higher foothold by several unmentionable mentionable ways.
So where is this going, you may ask? Well, because the even happened in Ephesus still according to the Acts of the Apostles chapter 19! What was the God of the Ephesians? (Hint Acts 19:28)
That's right! You got it. DIANA! A GODDESS! A woman was given the right to be a revealer of truth and also a god in the gentile world. So, is that it? Can you come up and prove this, Mr. Vavalle?
YES I CAN! First off, we can see that Paul was not just dealing with Jewish men coming at him disputing the faith now, but also Greek PHILOSOPHICAL MEN (Acts 17:18-22) who came by way of a sacred knowledge in a religious manner! That is why Paul mentions to the Colossians to ignore every wind of teaching that comes from PHILOSOPHY in his epistle to them (Col. 2:8). How do we know that this secret knowledge was evident then? Simple! Because Paul TELLS TIM TO AVOID THIS IN THE EPISTLE TO HIM. 1 Tim 6:20 1Ti 6:20 O Timothy, guard the deposit entrusted to you. Avoid the irreverent babble and contradictions of what is falsely called "knowledge," This "knowledge" is GNOSEOS in the Greek. Yup! You guessed it! GNOSTICISM comes from this. That is what Paul was saying. Gnostics were the first to come up with the belief that Jesus wasn't God in the flesh.
Now, where does this all come from in order for me to try to reconcile the woman in this teaching fiasco?
Haven't figured it out yet? OK. Let me try it this way. Women who were used to being prominent and looked upon to be something that men coveted one way or another in the Gentile world, would exercise authority over the man and would come up with things that some would say was revealed to them by the gods! So, if this was happening in a group that now had the Holy God's Spirit indwelling them who were taught that when they spoke, they should speak as if they were speaking the very words of God, then can you see where this could easily be abused and why Paul had to address this issue in this certain gathering now?
No? Then how does one reconcile the fact that EVERY SERVANT OF GOD MUST BE ABLE TO TEACH (2 Tim. 2:24; Titus 2:3)?
Or the even bigger fact that Paul also wrote the first epistle to Tim in order to tell him to tell CERTAIN PEOPLE that they should not TEACH instead OF ALL WOMEN EVERYWHERE (1 Tim 1:3)?
Hello my sweet sister of the peaceful one. *inserts a heart icon here and wonders why CDFF doesn't have one*
I hope that all is going well with you and I send blessings of peace and love upon you through our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ.
Too be honest with you, sister, that is a good question.
I think that if I had the answer, I'd write it in a book and sell it.
Seriously though. I believe it is because we (in or out) of Christ have a sin nature and tend to (sometimes unknowingly) expect a blessing to come from the gospel other than the Salvation and reconciliation to God through Christ. Other than that, i don't know.
Mt 22:39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt
love thy neighbour as thyself.
Me: is not Jesus the Christ, the Lord thy God enough for you to love with all your heart, mind, & soul and to believe on His name nd love the brethren(1Jon. 3:23-24) to fulfill the Law of Christ (Gal. 6:2), brother?
Pj, I love you, bro, but please so not take this in any other way but through love when I say that you need to be less contentious with the brethren and more accepting of them, because anything less is pharisitical & unChrist like.
Who ever reads the Word sees wht the disciples See.
Hi all my beautiful brethren! I hope that the light and love of our Lord Jesus keeps on emulation to and through you all.
As for my adherence to the Covenant of my God, I am under the Law of Christ (Gal. 6:2). In that Law He asks me to believe on His name and love the brethren (1 Jon 3:23-24).
