thank-you for your thoughts.....until a couple of years ago i would have whole-heartedly agreed with you, however now i will stick to my original statements.
as previously stated, i have not come to these changes in belief lightly...it was a long process.
with that said, i of course can appreciate where you are coming from, however there is one thing you said that concerns me.
you mentioned that the holy spirit only communicates with believers....well i would have to strongly disagree with you on that one. to begin, if the passage referenced in john 16 were (only) for believers, how do you explain that it specifically states in the next line "with regard to sin, because they do not know me"??...how can this be referring to believers, when the (practical) definition of a believer is one who knows god?!
also, the bible is clear many times over that the holy spirit is a large and necessary part of drawing unbelievers to christ
carrying on, it is not sound biblically to believe that the holy spirit does not speak to unbelievers. how then do you explain him speaking to pharaoh through his dreams regarding the years of plenty/famine that were going to occur?
or in daniel with the writing on the wall and the kings (nebuchanezzar i believe it was...) dreams...
also the scripture that you were referencing actually goes like this..."i am the good shepherd, i know my sheep and my sheep know me" john 10:14...later on john 10:27 "my sheep listen to my voice, i know them and they follow me"...
important in here is that nowhere does jesus say that it is only his sheep that hear his voice. he says his sheep KNOW him, and LISTEN to his voice...i would like to point out however that listening is significantly different than simply hearing...listening implies a decision, while hearing is not something you have control over.
also...just a thought about your comment on the difference (or lack thereof as you were saying) between god (holy spirit) convicting believers of sin, and revealing his goodness to us....there is a distinct difference. think of it this way.
imagine a mean, nasty, spoiled child who is continually whining and doing things that they know they are not supposed to do, but they cannot seem to help themselves...the kind of kid who seems out to break all the rules purposefully...sometimes i think that is the way we must seem to god.
now, there are two ways of dealing with this....under "law"...a constant reminding of rules, of things they should not be doing that they did do, continually holding that up to them and requiring them to ask forgiveness, time and again, always reminding them that "that's not right, that's not right...dont do that or you wont get this treat, or that special event..." etc...you get the picture.
the second way is under "grace"...instead of going through the procedures described above time and again, it is unconditional love and a revealing of "goodness" that over time causes the child to want to behave better. no handing out harsh punishments, requiring "this or else", etc etc.
now, instead of the child (believer) saying sorry and asking forgiveness because they have to and because they feel they have done something bad they (over time) begin to realize that their actions when they misbehave are actually hurting the other person (god)...and because of his unconditional love for them and his unending grace, they dont want to hurt him anymore...now they are asking forgiveness not because they feel they are bad etc, but because they are truly sorry for having hurt the other porson...because of the unending goodness, love and amazing grace that that individual has shown them.
i dont know about you, but that is the way it should be in my mind...and i believe that is god's best for his sheep. he loves us unconditionally and his grace towards us is neverending...we are sinners and are going to sin - that is a given, but we should be asking his forgiveness not because we have to, or because the holy spirit has convicted us of our sin, but because we are so much in love with him that we cant stand the thought that our actions have hurt him....
also, i would like to clarify what i mean when i talk about the word convict/conviction....perhaps something i should have done from the get-go...
convict is defined as follows.
1. to prove or declare guilty of an offense
2. to impress with a sense of guilt
now if we are to say that holy spirit convicts us of sin that would mean that he is counteracting the work of jesus on the cross. the blood of jesus has covered all our sins (offenses) and our guilt was placed on him - as christians we are righteous and justified in god's eyes, therefore we cannot be guilty at the same time. the two are unreconcilable. and if we as believers are not guilty in the eyes of god then holy spirit certainly would not impress on us a sense of guilt for our sins that have been washed away, covered with the blood of jesus, separated from us as far as east is from west etc.....
NOW - we will still be made aware of sin through the holy spirits working in our lives as we become more christ like and the goodness of god is continually revealed to us, but he will NOT convict us of sins. i stand firm on that....
again, i would like to invite you to check out some of the teaching of joseph prince...it will blow your mind.
as i said earlier, i can totally understand where you are coming from...i was there too not that long ago...but dont take my word for it. study scripture...and not just in english...look beyond that at the original languages/meanings and tenses. there is a lot that gets lost in english translation...also context is so important. i have learned that again through this whole journey i have been on...not only the preceding and following verse, but the chapter, book and even who it was written to and when it was written come into play...
i personally happen to believe that woman (as man) was created in the perfect image of god, and that as much as they are unique and beautifully different from man they do have just as much potential and ability and should be allowed to make use of it.
if we look in genesis, when woman was created it states that god saw man, and saw that there was no suitable helper for him, and that it was not good for him to be alone, and therefore caused man to fall into a deep sleep and created eve using a rib from adam's side. woman was created to help man, to work alongside him, and to serve god with him.
now, looking ahead to some of paul writings (which MANY people use as "proof" that women should not be allowed to be actively involved in church etc...where he is talking to one of the churches at the time and addressing some issues of unruliness in the church. he also says that women should not speak in church, should wear head coverings etc...if we look at this in context however (not only of the surrounding text, but to whom it was written, when it was written etc) we discover that he was advising them to observe certain cultural practices at that time so as to avoid distruption in their church meetings...he was not giving them commands from god that were the be all and end all of how christian women should behave.
i have to leave in a minute, so im not going to say much more, but i am going to leave you with this...
if we are to say that women shouldnt be pastors, well where does that stop? why only pastors? perhaps they shouldnt be bankers, worship leaders, nursery workers, administrators, childrens workers, missionaries...the list goes on.
i believe that a woman should be able to be/do whatever GOD CALLS her to...i have known more than a couple of female pastors in my life and been significantly blessed by each one, so there is no question that god can and does use women in positions of ministry and authority today. going back to the beginning of my post, god created woman just as much in his image as man, and they were created with just as much potential, ability to dream, desires etc...would god not want them to be able to fulfill those desires, passions, and potentials?! i believe the answer is absolutely YES.
AMEN!! its refreshing to see someone else talking the same way as I believe and have been trying to talk...of course you laid it out much more clearly than i did!!
just because we are saved by grace doesnt mean it is ok to forget the law - it simply means we dont have to live under the law. we dont have to try to live up to it in order to become right with god. we are already right with god!! that is the gospel message.
now...sin is sin, and it is still wrong - no doubt about it. the beauty of grace though is that our sins are already forgiven by god - nailed to the cross with jesus and covered in his blood for all eternity.
the only sin that can separate us from god once we surrender our lives to him (except for habitual practiced sin, but that is a WHOLE other can of worms...another discussion for another day...) is the sin of unbelief, which in short is our rejection of christ and his sacrifice on the cross.
now, as far as daily conduct goes, what does this mean?!
here is the way i see it.
1) we dont need to be constantly worrying about keeping the law or living up to god's standards
2) because of the amazing grace and love that jesus has shown us, it is only natural for us to want to love him back...and part of that is spending time with him, growing closer to him and as a result of our love for him a desire to obey his commands...THIS WILL NOT TAKE PLACE OVERNIGHT - it is a process...a matter of time spend with jesus getting to know him and his heart.
3) all of a sudden we find ourselves loving god with everything that is in us and we are consumed with thoughts of god, his presence and we cant get enough of him. there is a reason why jesus mentioned that one first as well i believe...once we have begun to find ourselves in that place with him, a byproduct of that will be that we begin to love those around us in a way that we never thought possible before. and its easy!! much easier than if we were trying to do it on our own strength....
the key is in the attitude and the way you are looking at it. LOVE god, and LOVE your neighbour as yourself...if you start with the one, the second follows naturally and everything else falls into place. if you look at it, those two statements cover everything in the 10 commandments...but its the attitude we go about it with and how we view god that makes all the difference.
i hope this helps a bit....now keep in mind, i am not saying that we will never commit any sins again, because that is certainly not the case...we will still sin regularly...thats a result of the fall and our sinful nature...but, we dont need to constantly be worrying about our sins and always running to god to ask for forgiveness and focusing on our sin all the time...we should instead realize we have done wrong and then put it behind us by going back to god and spending time with him and loving him...which may include repentance, but again...its the attitude that we go about it with. not an attitude of oh im so sorry i did this, please forgive me so i can be right iwht you again....but instead an attitude of i love you so much god, i realize that this hurt you and i am sorry...not because we need the forgiveness, because that is already ours, but because we love god so much we cant bear the thought of hurting him....
i hope that makes sense to you...and helps you out with understanding a bit.
i think we could discuss this till kingdom come and neither of us would change our opinion. agree to disagree?! lol...
i would like to say as a final point if you will that i do agree with you in referencing the verses from john 16 - and saying that it is the holy spirit who those verses are talking about...i would like to emphasize a couple of things in closing.
it does say that the holy spirit will convict the world of sin...of sin, because they do not believe in me. now obviously there are different interpretations to that, but i have come to believe that that means exactly what it says and nothing more. the holy spirit will convict the world of the sin of unbelief....nothing more.
if anyone wishes to discuss this further i am happy to.....also, to all who have participated in this, and anyone who reads it and chooses to participate down the road, i would like to encourage you to check out the teaching of joseph prince. it was his teaching that at first sparked my attention and offended me quite severely actually lol...so severely that i could not ignore it and had to study it for myself...upon doing so i soon found myself engrossed and just about unable to spend time on anything else! i would spend whole days studying the subject and writing and what-not...which lead me to a complete about-face in many of my beliefs and caused me to over time come to agree with everything he has to say...when at first i vehemently opposed...to the point of having (very) heated debates with my pastor...many times lol.
anyway, i hope if nothing else i have managed to challenge you to get into the word a bit and think!...'cause if we are not doing that on a regular basis we are not growing!...:)
i'm going to reply in brief right now, and more detail later tonight or possibly tomorrow morning as i have to get to work shortly...
what you say is certainly true when you say that we are already sinful and that the law points us to christ for salvation. the law exists to show us our great need for god, and our inability to measure up to his standards of perfection under our own strength. it was given to bring us to the end of ourselves, to make us give up and say "i cant do this on my own, i need your help".
you are also right when you say that our character is to be continually undergoing change to make it more like jesus...that is where our difference of opinion begins though.
the, as previously stated is there to show us that we dont measure up under our own strength. once we come to jesus, we have realized that we cannot do it on our own and have surrendered to him. that is the beauty of christianity and the crux of the gospel, or good news. tell me, what is good news about a faith where we are told that the son of god has come to die for us, but we still have to work at obeying him in the same way that they did before that son of god came?! oh and by the way, if we do work at it and fail, then death is the result. all the law is able to do is show us our sin, and bring death, unless you are able to observe it perfectly, which no man is. jesus was the only one who could ever and will ever be able to do that.
for further reference look at romans 2, 7 and 1 corinthians 15 (56 specifically...the whole chapter is good though). these verses tell us (among other things) that the law is good, but it produces sin in our lives, opens us up to the lusts of the flesh and it is also a trap that satan uses to control our minds and render us ineffective...this is a bit of a tangent, but the law is one of his most powerful weapons against christians who believe that they have to try and live up to it.....if you have ever experienced the guilt/shame that all too often play on our minds when we commit one of the sins described by the law then you will understand what i am talking about. satan uses the law to condemn us and keep us tied up with worrying about our salvation and whether or not we are good enough. the truth is we are not, but god loves us anyway.
i am also reminded of the verse that says for it is by grace that you have been saved, and this not of yourselves, it is the gift of god not by works so that no man can boast.
now, im going to wrap up because i do have to go, but like i said ill respond in more detail sometime in the next day or so...but let me leave you with this.
you were saying that we still were to try to live up to the law. i believe that we are to love jesus and keep his commandments. now before you say this is the same thing, let me explain. the 10 commandments are impossible for us to keep no matter how hard we try. that is a works based system and we will always fail.
now here is what jesus was referring to - he gave us two commandments..."love the lord your god with all your heart, soul, mind and strength and love your neighbour as yourself. in these is summed up all the law and the prophets" what was he referring to here? i believe it is the difference between living a lifestyle based on law, and a lifestyle based on grace...and they are two very different things. the law based system always says you dont measure up, you arent good enough, you need to try harder. but you will still never be good enough. i dont know about you but that doesnt sound like good news....
the grace based system says, i (jesus) am good enough for you. i have made you righteous. you no longer need to worry about keeping the law in detail. love god, and love people to put it simply. that covers it all. the operative word here is LOVE...that is the basis of the grace of god, and of the new covenant - the love of god. now that sounds like good news to me.
jesus did all the work on our behalf. all we have to do now is accept it, and love god and others and as we are sanctified and become more and more like jesus and god through drawing closer to him we will find our desires to sin are growing less and less...we will never reach perfection this side of heaven, however in gods eyes we are already there through the blood of jesus shed on the cross to cover our sins once and for all.
one final thought i will leave you with...i think we would agree that no single act or combination of acts (aside from repentance and believing in jesus) is good enough to gain a sinful person righteousness and salvation...correct? nothing we are able to do on our own strength will gain us access to heaven or make us right in the eyes of god.
now, why is it then that we so easily are lead astray to believe that a single act can be bad enough to cause us to fall from righteousness and lose our salvation?! once we are saved, no act is bad enough (save denial of christ, by words or lifestyle...habitual, premeditated sin as an example) to cause us to lose our righteousness and salvation.
just as we cannot gain our own salvation through works, i believe that neither can we lose our salvation through works.
anyway, im out of time for this morning. i will write more later.
hi there...i would be happy to have some discussion with you - i dont know which topics you were reading, but the following are some i posted a while ago regarding my beliefs on law and grace - conclusions that i have come to after countless hours of study and prayer and discussion...necessary because much of this represents a complete about face from what i believed even two years ago...
anyway, take a look at this and see if it helps you out at all. im not going to say much more tonite, because its late and i have to work early in the morning, but i will say just a couple of things...
1) the law that was abolished and fulfilled by jesus on the cross was the mosaic law (10 commandments etc)...not simply the customs and pharisaical laws of that time. i am willing to get into this in more detail here or by personal message another time if you like...i am too tired tonite however...sorry.
2) you are right when you say that the law is a representation of the character of god - that is true. it was never intended to bring salvation though. the mosaic law was given to prove that man could NEVER on our own efforts live up to the standards that god requires. it was given to bring us to the end of ourselves and to help us see our need for jesus and his saving grace. it is true that as christians we are to seek to be like jesus, but it is out of a completely different attitude than when we were under the law. again i dont have time to go into this in more detail right now, but will be happy to do so here or by personal message another time...
most of this is also explained in greater detail in the forum topics i posted links for above...
thanks for your thoughts both of you - im going to address the "question" regarding the trinity first of all...i ABSOLUTELY believe in the triune oneness of god (father, son and holy spirit). they are three separate and distinct beings, and yet one. i dont believe that our human mind can nor ever will be able to fully comprehend that...or many of the wonders of god...like you said, that is where faith comes into play. so i agree with you wholeheartedly on that. i also believe however that even though we cant and i believe wont ever understand fully all the things of god, we should still continually seek to grow in knowledge of him and his ways.
also, i cant say that i dont see where you are coming from cattle....that is the same school of thought that i was from for many years....so believe me i understand. let me throw a few more things out there for some further discussion...
1) in looking at the passages you referenced, i didn't see one mention of the holy spirit convicting christians of their day-to-day sins. i have studied this fairly extensively as i mentioned previously and have not found one verse explicitly stating that the holy spirit will come to christians and convict them of their sins on a day to day basis. this is not to say that we dont have a conscience or an inner voice that tells us right from wrong. i believe our conscience is something god uses in us, in spite of the fact that it is a result of the fall. all we have to do is look at the garden of eden, which is where adam and eve first gained the knowledge of good and evil (conscience) through their act of disobedience in eating from the tree. despite god's command to them not to eat from the tree, i fully believe that he can use all aspects of that for our greater good (jer 29:11, romans 8:28 etc...) and that we can still be blessed inspite of it....
2) i would like to specifically look at a couple of the passages you mentioned. first of all the galatians one from chapter 2 that you referenced. if we look at the passage (and the surrounding verses, and context and the people to whom the book was written as well as the issues they were working through at the time) i believe we find that they galatian church at the time had strayed from living in the grace of god (which may seem unrelated, but it actually makes all the difference - see earlier topics posted by myself regarding grace vs. law) through his spirit and reverted back to a works (or law) based message of salvation. heres the thing. it is impossible to live under a mixture of grace and law - the law is there to point out our sin, to show us our need of god and to bring us to the end of ourselves, until we realize that we cant do it on our own and finally surrender to god. the law is designed in such a way that no man can attain to it...now if god is good why would he give us a law that he knows we can never live up to and not give us another way?
the other way of course is jesus, and his death on the cross - by coming to earth and giving up his life for the salvation of mankind he fulfilled and abolished the law - making it possible for us to approach the throne of god by grace - through nothing we can do..."for it is by grace you have been saved, and this not of yourselves, it is the gift of god not by works so that no man can boast".
the bible tells us that when jesus died on the cross and rose again he opened the way for us to have unrestricted access to god again. we are taught and scripture confirms that when we repent and are saved through the blood of jesus that blood covers our sins. past present and future sins are forgiven, washed away, covered in the blood of jesus, separated from us as far as the east is from the west. this work also was accomplished by jesus on the cross - now, if the holy spirit were to come to us and convict us of our daily sins - that have already been forgiven, covered, separated from us for now and all time - doesnt it seem like that would be sort of a slap in the face to jesus and what he did on the cross for us? why would god send jesus to pay the price for our sins, and freely forgive us for them all past present and future, and then send the holy spirit to remind us of them as we go about our lives? just a thought....
if we look at titus two and romans two (as a couple of examples) they tell us that it is the grace and goodness of god that bring repentance and salvation....not conviction of the holy spirit.
i think we can agree that god wants good things for us and that he is the best father imaginable right?! well now, what sounds like a better way
1) holding our sins up for us as proof of our failures and reminding us of them and holding them up for us as examples of what not to do (roughly what it means to convict someone of something)
- or -
2) simply showing us his unconditional grace, love and goodness and drawing us into himself and through that experience of undeserved grace and favor and through growing closer to god sanctification comes, as well as repentance and a desire on our part to leave those sins behind. as we get closer to god and grow more like him our sinful nature diminishes and we desire to be more and more like him.
personally the second one sounds more like the god i have come to know....
now about that last passage you were referencing. the one from 2 corinthians 7....if we look at the passage in context, we can see that the sorrow paul was talking about was sorrow that he himself had caused them in a previous letter...he could be referring to one of several things that he called them out on in first corinthians, or in another letter....and that they became sorrowful in the way god intended. i believe he is talking about believers and leaders in the church holding each other accountable and not allowing fellow believers to backslide or "go the way of the world" unnoticed and without holding them accountable. now of course on the part of the corinthians they also had a choice to get offended or to take action on their part to correct the behaviour paul was referencing. it would appear that they were properly repentant (sorrowful...sorry for their actions) and took the necessary steps with god's help to correct their misdeeds.
well now. its getting late and ive been at this for a while lol...so i better be heading to bed. looking forward to hearing what you have to say in response.
please understand that i am not trying to be antagonistic or start a fight or anything...simply looking to have some good discussion and hopefully set some people thinking and studying the word for themselves :)
hey all...looking to perhaps spark some discussion and thought...
most north american christians are taught from a very young age that the holy spirit convicts us of sin and is that little voice inside us that tells us right from wrong.
i would like to raise some questions concerning that and what i have come to believe through much prayer, debate/discussion and study over the past couple years is a MAJOR misunderstanding of scripture.
many christians will point to the following passage from john 16 as an argument that the holy spirit will convict us of sin...
"Now I am going to him who sent me, yet none of you asks me, 'Where are you going?' Because I have said these things, you are filled with grief. But I tell you the truth: It is for your good that I am going away. Unless I go away, the Counselor will not come to you; but if I go, I will send him to you. When he comes, he will convict the world of guilt in regard to sin and righteousness and judgment: in regard to sin, because men do not believe in me; in regard to righteousness, because I am going to the Father, where you can see me no longer; and in regard to judgment, because the prince of this world now stands condemned." John 16:5-11
until relatively recently...the past couple years...i too would have done the same. until i had my eyes opened to something...lets take a look at this and break it down. the passage does indeed say that the holy spirit (counselor) will convict the WORLD of guilt in regard to sin, righteousness and judgement. left at that a logical conclusion would be that the holy spirit is here to convict all people of their sins...the writer goes on however to specify exactly what he is talking about.
in regard to sin, because men do not believe in me....in otherwords the holy spirit was coming to convict the WORLD of the sin of unbelief - NOT coming to convict christians of their day-to-day sins. the holy spirit is intended to be our helper, our guide, our comforter, our counselor etc...not our convictor. the holy spirit is there to help us reach god...to help us draw closer to god on a daily basis by showing us his goodness....it is the goodness of god that leads men to repentance...not the conviction of the holy spirit. i have not yet found a passage that states beyond doubt that the holy spirit will convict us as christians of sins in our lives. as previously stated though i am looking to spark some discussion, so please share if you happen to disagree and have scriptures you feel contradict what i am saying....i have a lot more i could say and im sure some of that will come out in discussion :)
now...as a further thought - you will recall earlier i made reference to that little voice inside us that says this is right or this is wrong...many christians mistakenly believe that is the holy spirit.
that is called our conscience and it has been present in man since adam and even ate from the TREE OF THE KNOWLEDGE OF GOOD AND EVIL...the bible says that after eating from the tree they knew right from wrong. sound familiar? it was at that point that man was given their conscience....not to be confused with the holy spirit.
anyway, its late. i have much much more i could say...pages and pages...but i will sign off for now. please share your thoughts! i look forward to some stimulating discussion!
