Thread: Regeneration precedes faith: Both sides considered!
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Regeneration precedes faith: Both sides considered!
Posted : 11 Sep, 2011 05:19 PM
Usually when I debate other Christians on a point of Doctrine, I present my beliefs and the relevant
Scriptures on that point. When I do this, they will reply, "well that can't be true because of X" or they will present some verses to me on why they believe what they believe.
The problem is they never deal with the Scriptures I just gave them, and I am always left with a bunch of verses in my hand that prevent me from believing what they believe.
I give them 40 verses on the Total depravity of man, and they ignore them, and show me verses that have the word "if" and "choose" and "world" and "all", and then never mention what I should do with the 40 verses I just showed them!
I mean they never come out and say, "Just ignore those verses James!"
But they NEVER mention them or deal with them!
So this time on the subject of Regeneration coming BEFORE faith, I will deal with the verses used by the opposition, and also include the verses that make me believe that Regeneration comes before faith.
Cole said:
"Regeneration can't precede faith unless regeneration precedes the indwelling of the Holy Spirit (which it doesn't), because the indwelling is produced by faith (John 7:39, Gal. 3:14, Gal. 3:22, Eph. 1:13, Eph. 3:17, Acts 11:17)."
James replies:
Okay, lets look at each one of these verses and see if they actually DO teach that regeneration comes AFTER a person has faith.
John 7: 39
English Standard Version (ESV)
"Now this he said about the Spirit, whom those who believed in him were to receive, for as yet the Spirit had not been given, because Jesus was not yet glorified."
Now if you look at Jesus comment "If anyone believes in me, then out of him will flow rivers of living waters."
Jesus was NOT teaching WHEN a person is regenerated, Jesus is talking about the blessing of Pentecost.
Of course, the Holy Spirit was present in the Old Testament period, but at Pentecost He entered into a more intimate relationship with believers. (14:17: 1 Cor.6:19)
Acts 11:17
"If then God gave the same gift to them as he gave to us when we believed in the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I that I could stand in God�s way?"
I can see how this verse could be used to say that a person is regenerated at the same moment someone believed, or after they believed. But my problem is, that Peter was NOT teaching WHEN a person is regenerated. He was defending God's grace towards the Gentiles, to Jewish believers. THAT was his point, and NOT "when a person is regenerated".
Also, we have several CLEAR examples of when a person is regenerated being TAUGHT explicitly, and you would make the bible contradict itself, if you used this verse to say a person is regenerated AFTER they believe.
Gal. 3:14
"so that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles, so that we might receive the promised Spirit through faith."
Here is Paul dealing with people in the church in Galatia, that suddenly decided that faith in Jesus was not enough to save them, and they decided to start trusting in works instead! So, Paul has harsh words for them and rightly so. But again, Paul is NOT teaching about "when a person is regenerated". He is teaching that salvation is by FAITH alone.
What Paul is saying in this verse is that in his time, the believing gentiles whose lives ARE marked by the indwelling Spirit, FULFILL THE PROMISE that through Abraham all nations will be blessed. If you check out this verse on Biblegateway.com you will see a footnote that says: "Greek text: "receive the promise of the Spirit".
Gal.3:22
"But the Scripture imprisoned everything under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe."
Again, this verse is talking about fulfilling the PROMISE made to Abraham.
Eph. 1:13
"In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit,"
Paul here is telling believers that the Holy Spirit is an inward mark of God's ownership of His people.
"Sealed with the Promised Holy Spirit" has nothing to do with WHEN a person is regenerated BY the Holy Spirit.
If you go on to read verse 14 and put the verses together, Paul is saying the Holy Spirit is a "promise"
a "seal" (Like a kings signet ring) and a "guarantee".
Eph. 3:17
"so that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith�that you, being rooted and grounded in love,"
Again, I don't see this as Paul TEACHING WHEN a person is regenerated. If you are trying to say that the Holy Spirit comes into a person AFTER they believe, well in Verse 16 Paul says, "that He would GRANT you..."
So, Paul says God the Father grants you His Holy Spirit, not you receiving it because you had faith.
Now, here are the scripture verses that cause me to believe that Regeneration precedes, and CAUSES faith.
John 6:63-65
"It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh is no help at all. The words that I have spoken to you are spirit and life. 64But there are some of you who do not believe." (For Jesus knew from the beginning who those were who did not believe, and who it was who would betray him.) 65And he said, "This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father."
Here Jesus teaches that the Holy Spirit is the one who GIVES spiritual life to fallen man. Jesus does not say that the flesh is of little help, or some help, or most of the help. He says, "the flesh is NO HELP AT ALL". This is Jesus saying that the Holy Spirit must regenerate a person first, because "the flesh is no help at all."
1 John 5:1
"Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ has been born of God, and everyone who loves the Father loves whoever has been born of him."
Here is a verse that shows the timing of things. everyone who believes, Has ALREADY been born of God.
Eph. 2:4,5
But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, made us alive [quickened us] with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions � it is by grace you have been saved.
It does not say, "by your decision, you were saved and then God made you alive" It says, that God made us alive WHEN we were dead in transgressions. That is, before we repented and believed.
Again, here is the timing of WHEN God "made us alive". When was it??? "When we were dead in our trespasses"
BEFORE, we repented, and BEFORE we trusted in Jesus.
Col.2:13
"And you, who were dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made alive together with him, having forgiven us all our trespasses,"
Notice, we did not make ourselves be regenerated by a decision we made. God made us alive, who were totally spiritually dead in our trespasses.
Now, whenever I use a verse from the Old Testament, some Christian will complain and act like I should not even use it, but the truth is, all mankind has been fallen and totally spiritually dead since Adam and Eve sinned, so God must do the same thing with fallen man before Christ, as he does now. Here is a verse that shows that even in the Old Testament, regeneration comes before faith:
"And I will put my Spirit within you, and you shall live...Then you shall know that I am the LORD; I have spoken, and I will do it, declares the LORD." - Ezekiel 37:14
THEN......"You shall know that I am the Lord."
Now this next one settled it for me, and I hope it does for you as well. There is no possible way Jesus could make this any clearer.....
John 3:3-5
Jesus answered him, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God." 4Nicodemus said to him, "How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother�s womb and be born?" 5Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.
Now, Jesus says, that a man can NOT "enter" or even "see the Kingdom of God" UNLESS he is already born again!
Jesus is TEACHING nicodemus, which one has to come first, and what HAS to come first, is being born again!
Now, these are not all the verses that show that regeneration precedes faith, but people complain when you post too many verses.
Here is a link to a webpage of articles concerning Regeneration:
Regeneration precedes faith: Both sides considered!
Posted : 11 Sep, 2011 06:22 PM
James You are right on one point it is not a matter of ignoring the scriptures, but it is said to ignore the twisted meaning thru the justificiation of interpretation put upon all scriptures, as a believer in Christ I know there is no scripture in the word of faith that supports total inability or total depravity, but there is a bible full of those that prove it's falsehood.
You where right on another point, but not in your defense or opn your behalf it is the habit of you and most calvinist to totally ignore all the proves that expose the gross error of all of calvinist teaching's.
Regeneration precedes faith: Both sides considered!
Posted : 12 Sep, 2011 07:02 AM
Joh 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.
Any and all words that try and add to or take away from this simple truth is the work of the thief.
Jn 10:10 The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly.
Regeneration precedes faith: Both sides considered!
Posted : 12 Sep, 2011 10:07 AM
James I don't know how many time I must say these things. You must start to know God;s word for yourself and this can only come about throught the diligent REDAING of each book, and not depned on what your teachers and articles are telling you. your confusion in the word coems from NOT READING FOR YOURSELF!
The book of John Jesus is teaching about the COMING of His Hoy Spirit, the what, how when, and who. In the book of Acts it is speaking about the Day of Pentacost when Jesus ascended back into heaven snd SENT his Holy Spirit, and ALL THOSE WHO HAD FAITH TO BELIEVE UPON HEARING THE GOSPEL, RECEIVBED THE PROMISE that Jesus had spoken about throughout His earthly ministry in Matthew, Mark, Luke and John. Acts chapter 11, Peter is speaking to the other disciples and new Jewish converts telling them about what HAPPENED WHEN HE WENT OT CORNILUS' house and Cornilus received the Holy Spirit. Cornilus was the FIRST GENTILE who rceived the Holy Spiritm... Jesus sent Peter to preach the gospel to him, so the passages you quoite is about what Peter was saying to those who rebuled him and questioned him. ... you need to know God's word and your Bible you can't keep mixing scriptures out of cintent and context trying to suppo9rt a twist view of what God's word is saying...
All of Paul's writings are to ALL THE NEW CONVERTS WHO HAD ALREADY RECEIVED THE HOLY SPIRIT, therefore, he was writing to them to remind them to hold fast to what he had taught them about the doctrine of Jesus Christ. and not allow the Judiaziers come into the church with false doctrines trying to tell them that they could have both Moses' laws and the teaching of Jesus.
You MUST understand the beginning, which are Jesus' teaching about the coming of the Holy Spirit to ALL THOSE WHO HAD FAITH TO BELIEVE UPON HEARING THE GOSPEL; the book of Acts who HEARD THE GOSPEL AND BELIEVED AND RECEIVE THE HOLY SPIIRT; and Pauls writings are to all WHO HAD FAITH AND BELIEVED AND HAD THE HOLY SPIRIT LIVING ON THE INSIDE OF THEM....
You keep going all over the bible seeking scriptures AFTER scriptures trying to prove your points and you are confused and misinterpreting the Gor of God, and you have not done the first things firsst. HAD FAITH TO BELIEVE FOR YOURSELF WHAT GOD HAS ALREADY SPOKEN!...becasue YOU ARE NOT READING A WHOLE CHAPTER NOR HAVE YOU SAT DOWN AND DILIGENTLY READ A WHOLE BOOK OF THE BIBLE... otherwise you would have spiritual understand into knowing the truth...
Regeneration precedes faith: Both sides considered!
Posted : 12 Sep, 2011 10:32 AM
ADD ON & CORRECTION: James, I don't know how many time I must say these things. You must start to know God's word for yourself and this can only come about through the diligent READING of each book, and not depend on what your teachers and articles are telling you. Your confusion in the word comes from you NOT READING FOR YOURSELF!
The book of John chapter 3, Jesus is teaching about the COMING of His Holy Spirit, the what, how, when, and who. In fact throughout Matthew, Mark, Luke and John this is what Jesus is teaching
His death and His return of His Spirit to live on the inside of ALL who have FAITH TO BELIEVE IN HIM. In the WHOLE book of Acts, especially in Acts chapter 2, it is speaking about the Day of Pentacost when Jesus ascended back into heaven and SENT His Holy Spirit back to earth, and ALL THOSE WHO HAD FAITH TO BELIEVE UPON HEARING THE GOSPEL, RECEIVED THE PROMISE that Jesus had spoken about throughout His earthly ministry in Matthew, Mark, Luke and John.
Acts chapter 11, Peter is speaking to the other disciples and new Jewish converts telling them about what HAPPENED WHEN HE WENT To CORNILUS' house in Acts chapter 10, and Cornilus received the Holy Spirit. Cornilus was the FIRST GENTILE who rceived the Holy Spirit... Acts chapter 10, tells us that, Jesus sent Peter to preach the gospel to him, so the passages you quote is about what Peter was saying to those who rebuked him and questioned him when he returned back to his group, Jew ere not allowed to associates with Gentiles, so Peter was explaining to them. ... you need to know God's word and your Bible, you can't keep mixing scriptures without content and context trying to support a twist view of what God's word is saying, based on your own beliefs, and what your church teaches, now what GOD SAYS, this is MOST IMPORTANT AND UNDERSTAND SCRIPTURES ...
All of Paul's writings from Romasn to Titus are to ALL Believers, THE NEW CONVERTS OF THE CHURCHES PAUL ESTABLISHED THROUGH THE PREACHING OF THE GOSPEL, WHO HAD FAITH TO BELIEVE, SO THESE BELIEVERS HAD ALREADY RECEIVED THE HOLY SPIRIT. Therefore, Paul was writing to them to remind them to hold fast to what he had taught them about the doctrine of Jesus Christ, and not allow the Judiaziers to come into the church with false doctrines trying to tell them that they could have both Moses' laws and the teaching of Jesus.
You MUST understand the beginning, which are Jesus' teaching about the coming of the Holy Spirit to ALL THOSE WHO HAD FAITH TO BELIEVE UPON HEARING THE GOSPEL; the book of Acts all those who HEARD THE GOSPEL AND BELIEVED AND RECEIVE THE HOLY SPIIRT; and Paul's writings are to all WHO HAD FAITH AND BELIEVED AND HAD THE HOLY SPIRIT LIVING ON THE INSIDE OF THEM....
You keep going all over the bible seeking scriptures AFTER scriptures trying to prove your points and you are confused and misinterpreting the Word of God, and you have not done the first things first... HAD FAITH TO BELIEVE FOR YOURSELF WHAT GOD HAS ALREADY SPOKEN!...becasue YOU ARE NOT READING A WHOLE CHAPTER NOR HAVE YOU SAT DOWN AND DILIGENTLY READ A WHOLE BOOK OF THE BIBLE... otherwise you would have spiritual understand into knowing the truth...
Regeneration precedes faith: Both sides considered!
Posted : 12 Sep, 2011 12:18 PM
AMEN James,
May God grant mercy to those who do not give him all the glory due his name. May they put away their prideful hearts, and seek after the God of the bible.
Regeneration is a sovereign work of God (Jn. 1:12-13; 3:3-8; Jas. 1:18; 1 Pet. 1:3) a radical work or total transformation (Ezek. 36:26-27; 1 Jn. 3:9) not just an addition...The SOURCE of regeneration is Christ (1 Pet 1:3; Eph 1:3, 2:4, 4:24; 2 Cor 5:17) The AGENT of regeneration is the Holy Spirit (Jn. 3:3-8; Titus 3:5) The INSTRUMENT of regeneration is the Word of God (Jas. 1:18; 1 Pet. 1:23, 25) which precedes and causes faith (Jn 6:63-65, 1 jn 5:1, Eph. 2:5; Col. 2:13)
"God effects a change which is radical and all-pervasive, a change which cannot be explained in terms of any combination, permutation or accumulation of human resources, a change which is nothing less than a new creation by Him who calls the things that be not as though they were, who spoke and it was done, whocommanded and it stood fast. This, in a word, is regeneration." - John Murray
Regeneration is the communication of the new heart to sinners by the operation of the Holy Spirit through the Word...a Christ-generated act of instantaneously communicating spiritual life to a man convicted of sin.
Regeneration is expressly denied to be of the will of the flesh, or of the will of man (John 1:13), and is ascribed to God himself. Not all men have faith in Christ; and those who do have it, have it not of themselves; it is the gift of God, worked out through the Redemption which is in Christ through the mighty operation of his Spirit, which is the fruit and effect of His invincible grace. This is because the natural man is wholly captive under the power and dominion of sin, and a slave unto it, and has neither a power nor will to believe the gospel of Jesus Christ apart from the regenerating work of the Holy Spirit.
Synergists teach that 'salvation depends on human will', but the Bible teaches that 'it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy." (Rom 9:16)
"And I will put my Spirit within you, and you shall live...Then you shall know that I am the LORD; I have spoken, and I will do it, declares the LORD." - Ezekiel 37:14
But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, made us alive [quickened us] with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions � it is by grace you have been saved. Ephesians 2:4-5
�It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh is of no avail. The words that I have spoken to you are spirit and life. But there are some of you who do not believe.� (For Jesus knew from the beginning who those were who did not believe, and who it was who would betray him.) And he said, �This is why I told you that no one can come to me [i.e. believe in me] unless it is granted him by the Father.�
John 6:63-65
You have been born anew, not of perishable seed but but of imperishable, through the living and abiding word of God..."
1 Peter 1:23-25
Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ has been born of God.
1 John 5:1
Faith in the living God and his Son Jesus Christ is always the result of the new birth, and can never exist except in the regenerate. Whoever has faith is a saved man.
Charles Spurgeon from the sermon �Faith and Regeneration�
If salvation is the implantation of a new, infinite life in the soul, it must be a work of God. Self-caused effects can never rise above the character or qualities of their cause. "Flesh gives birth to flesh but the Spirit gives birth to Spirit," Jesus told Nicodemus. This saving grace cannot be caused by the creature, it can only come from God.
John Hannah from To God be the Glory (pg. 34-5)
The inward offer is a kind of spiritual enlightenment, whereby the promises are presented to the hearts of men, as it were, by an inward word.
Regeneration precedes faith: Both sides considered!
Posted : 12 Sep, 2011 03:42 PM
SALVATION A 100 % FREE GIFT AND ETERNAL*REWARDS* 100% EARNED??
We should only strive for and have faith in TREASURES and REWARDS in Heaven!! The important thing is that once we are born of God and receive His Spirit and the free gift of faith that we seek and earn eternal rewards with God's help.
2 Corinthians 4:18: �So we fix our eyes not on what is seen, but on what is *UNSEEN*. For what is seen is temporary, but what is *UNSEEN is eternal.
Ephesians 2:8,9: "For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith--and this is not from yourselves, it is the **GIFT** of God--not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do!"
Matthew 5:19,20: Jesus says, �Do not store up for yourself treasures on earth {THE SEEN}, where moth and rust destroy, and where thieves break in and steal. But store up for yourselves **TREASURES** in Heaven!{THE **UNSEEN**}� Luke 12:33 adds �Sell your possessions and give to the poor. Provide for yourselves.. a **TREASURE** in heaven {THE **UNSEEN**} that will not be exhausted. For where your **TREASURE** is there your heart will be also!!�
2 Corinthians 6:6-10: As servants of God we commend ourselves in every way; in great endurance, in troubles, hardships and distresses, in beatings, imprisonments; in hard work, sleepless nights and hunger; in purity, understanding, patience and kindness; in the Holy Spirit and in sincere love; in truthful speech and in the power of God...Dying, and yet we live on, beaten, and yet not killed; sorrowful, yet always rejoicing; **POOR**, yet making many rich, **HAVING NOTHING**{THE SEEN}, and yet **POSSESSING EVERYTHING**!{THE **UNSEEN**!�
Hebrews 11:1,6: Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see....And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to God must believe that He exists and that He **REWARDS** those who earnestly seek Him."
Ephesians 6:7,8: "Serve wholeheartedly...because you know that the Lord will *REWARD* everyone for whatever good he does!"
2 John 1:8: "Watch out that you do not lose what you have worked for, but that you may be *REWARDED* fully!"
I Corinthians 3:6-9: Paul said, "I planted the seed, Apollos watered it, but God made it grow. So neither he who plants nor he who waters is anything, but only God makes things grow. The man who plants and the man who waters have one purpose, and each will be *REWARDED* according to his own labor. For we are God's fellow workers!"
Daniel 12:3: "Those who impart wisdom will shine like the brightness of the heavens, and those who lead many to righteousness, like the stars for ever and ever!"
Matthew 5:11,12: Jesus says, "Blessed are you when people insult you, persecute you and falsely say all kinds of evil against you because of Me. Rejoice and be glad, because great is your *REWARD* in heaven!" {See Luke 6:35}
Revelation 22:12: Jesus says, "Behold, I am coming soon! My {**unseen**}*REWARD*is with Me, and I will give to everyone according to what he has done!"
2 Corinthians 5:9,10: "So we make it our goal to please Him..For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive what is due him {**UNSEEN REWARDS & TREASURES**} for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad!"
Matthew 16:27: Jesus says, For the Son of Man is going to come in His **FATHER'S GLORY WITH HIS ANGELS**{See Matt 24:30-31;25:31-40}, and **THEN**{NOT NOW} He will *REWARD*{**THE UNSEEN REWARD**} each person according to what he has done,"
Jesus says in Rev 2:17; 3:4, 5, 21: �To him who overcomes...I will give a white stone with a new name written on it, known only to him who receives it.....He will walk with Me for he is worthy... I will acknowledge his name before My Father and His angels.... I will write on him the name of My God and the name of the city of My God, the New Jerusalem.....I will write on him my New Name... and I will give him the right to sit with Me on My throne, just as I overcame and sat down with My Father on His throne.� According to Rev 22:3 these 2 thrones will be the only thrones in the Heavenly New Jerusalem!.
So Salvation is a 100% FREE GIFT as per Ephesians 2:8,9 and eternal *REWARDS* for God's faithful saints are 100% earned!
I Peter 1:13: �Therefore, prepare your minds for *ACTION*, and set your hope *FULLY* on the {**UNSEEN**} grace to be given *YOU* when Jesus Christ is *REVEALED*.:applause::angel:
Regeneration precedes faith: Both sides considered!
Posted : 12 Sep, 2011 05:44 PM
ET,
All I did was to present the Scriptures used by BOTH sides, and give an interpretation of them that lines up with what the Majority of Christians have believed throughout church history.
Your response bordered on the hysterical, and you never dealt with any of the Scriptures I gave.
I think that almost anyone who reads my post, and then your response, would conclude that I was reasonable and comprehensive, and that your response was out of touch with reality, and hysterical.
Regeneration precedes faith: Both sides considered!
Posted : 12 Sep, 2011 11:27 PM
James for those that know him there is only one truth, and he presents his self as either or, he is always I AM. His instruction to the world has always been seek his kingdom first and his rightousness, or right ness, the father's way doing things.
His Son the lord Jesus the King of the kingdom of God told us man clearly in the parable of the sower exactly how the kingdom of God operates and it always by faith and faith only and man's answer is in that truth and whosoever desires to know the truth.
Regeneration precedes faith: Both sides considered!
Posted : 13 Sep, 2011 07:12 AM
First of all James sweetheart, YOU have not presented both side of nothing! You have only posted quote and a name of someone no one knows about nor have you presented all that he has said. Then you post YOUR views and those of those who agaree with you. Even Spurgeon does not agree with your views, if you read his sermon.
I also understand defense techniques, of re-direction, reflection,projection, etc... calling me hysterical ain't gone cut it, becasue everyone already knows your bibl;ical views are twisted and you misinterpretate God's word...
Now, as I said I will decrease and let God increase, but since I know that you DO NOT spiritually understand scriptures like you think you do, BUT I know you ae putting forth your very best efforts to come into an understanding, I will only provide you with resouces and you can go and READ commentaries by the differnet theologians for yourself and see what you come up with.
BUT I have finished with this topic its going nowhere as it has done each time you post the same topic, you still hold to your false believes no matter what a person OR SCRIPTURES says to you. You lack spiritual understanding to know that a person cannot believe in nothing UNTIL that person has received the GOSPEL to have faith to BELIEVE, this was the purpose of the Great Commission, Jesus told the disciples to GO PREACH the ogspel and WHO EVER BELIEVES... and Romans 10 says the say: verse10. It is the heart that has faith that leads to righteousness, and it is the mouth that confesses that leads to salvation. 11 The scripture says, All who have faith in him won’t be put to shame.[e] 12 There is no distinction between Jew and Greek, because the same Lord is Lord of all, who gives richly to all who call on him. 13 All who call on the Lord’s name will be saved.[f] 14 So how can they call on someone they don’t have faith in? And how can they have faith in someone they haven’t heard of? And how can they hear without a preacher? 15 And how can they preach unless they are sent? As it is written, How beautiful are the feet of those who announce the good news.[g] 16 But everyone hasn’t obeyed the good news. As Isaiah says, Lord, who has had faith in our message?[h] 17 So, faith comes from listening, but it’s listening by means of Christ’s message. 18 But I ask you, didn’t they hear it? Definitely! Their voice has gone out into the entire earth, and their message has gone out to the corners of the inhabited world.[i] 19 But I ask you again, didn’t Israel understand? First, Moses says, I will make you jealous of those who aren’t a people, of a people without understanding.[j] 20 And Isaiah even dares to say, I was found by those who didn’t look for me; I revealed myself to those who didn’t ask for me.[k] 21 But he says about Israel, All day long I stretched out my hands to a disobedient and contrary people.[l]
I have fished with this tipic with you, you're not READING God's word for yourself, and contrary to YOUR OWN believes, you have not broken down not one passages you have half quoted...
If you would sit down and READ the book of Joh for yourself from chapter1 to chapter 21, God will bring you into Hi sperfect light of His word, plus, you can also follow the threads that I have been posting on the Gospel of John, this will go faster.
But visit this site and start reading the commentaries by noted theologians even some are Calvinist and they don't even believe what you speak...
www.searchgodsword.org
look under Study Tools and you will find commentaries and you can go ther to click on any name you like and read what they come forth with that they feel is from God about any book in the bible, but I have no more comments on this topic no matter what title you give it, its still the same topic.
Regeneration precedes faith: Both sides considered!
Posted : 13 Sep, 2011 07:35 AM
Side Bar: Its all about understanding that BEFORE a person CAN BE REGENERATED BY THE HOLY SPIRIT OF GOD, the person MUST FIRST, HEAR the osple, HAVE FAITH TO BELIEVE, REPENET OF THEIR SINS, and THEN ONLY THEN DOES THE HOLY SPIRIT COME INTO THE PERSON AND START REGENERATING THE life of that person into a born again believers in Christ.
BTW, again, if you presented BOTH SIDE of this topic to be considered, THEN, why did you NOT include Cole's full name and all of his comments.
Fair and balance, because a flase balance is a SIN... you have presented your side, somebody's else words reflecting your side as your words, but not even what God says... HIS WISDE which is the MOST important of all sides.
Understanding spiritual concepts and phrases is very important. And as I've said before problems lies when man takes ONE word that God has said and out of spiritual ignorance makes a doctriens becasue he has fail to understand teh passages connected to a chpater God is speaking about if fale teaching and misinterpretation of God's divine word... this causes confusion and this is where your spiritual confusion lies, and God ain't' the author of man's spiritual confusion says the Lord... its better to obey God and what He says than man... that's Bible.
To DLJ, I love ya dalring, but again, you post quotes and some good topics HOWEVER, I find that you have no spiritual understanding of them, they OSUND GOOD to you... you have taken from Spurgeon's sermon and you have NO IDEA whatsoever what he has said, nor can you properly explain the quotes, or even a scriptures as to what God is saying,,, so get a grip girlfriend.
Matter not what's your response to this, the truth stands, and there is nothing that can come up against God's truth except the truth its self...and that's bible!
James visit www.searchgodsword.org and READ the commentaries on those scripture passages you have posted, then speak... Also know that God WILL NOT reveal His word to you as long as you are determined to think you are right... nor will He reveal Himself to you, if you thinl you have not need to seek His face asking for corrections in understanding His word of Truth... The Holy Spirit is not going to lie for you or with you... being puffed up thinking you have the answers prevents spiritual growth and God's knoweldge from reaching your mind... Paul say it starts with the renewing of your mind, if you would receive God's word.
