The 144,000 are found in Revelation 7: 1-8 and Revelation 14: 1-5. And Daniel 11: 33 can be applied to the 144,000. The background of the discussion of the 144,000 on this thread, and for many such discussions,
is that the traditional amillennialist view of them by the Catholic Church and by many Calvinists is that they represent all the saved ones of all ages. I know that amillennialism refers to a rejection of the thousand year reign of Christ on earth following the end time tribulation. But a similar tendency to use brad sweeping allegorization leads the amillennialists to say the 144,000 are just all saved people from all times.
But the dispensationalist view, following their honoring of all Israel and their literalist system of interpretation is that they are all Jews.
On a Christian forum a member said of the 144,000 that: "Of course they
are Christians, but they are Israelites that converted
to Christianity."
Do you mean the 144,000 all belong to Messianic Judaism, who mix the
old and new covenants? Mixing the Old Covenant with the New Covenant
is of the spirit of anti-Christ, and is very possibly an important end
time apostasy.
In the New Testament, there is no longer a chosen people based on
race, that is, on physical descent from Abraham (Galatians 3: 16,
28-29). Entry into the kingdom of God is by faith alone. Those who
have the DNA of Abraham, or claim to have it, have no standing in the
New Covenant, unless they are born again (John 3: 1-6). "He taketh
away the first, that he may establish the second." Hebrews 10: 9
Revelation 7: 1-8 has to be interpreted by New Testament scripture,
not by a man made theology which starts from a position of honoring
all Israel, the saved Remnant and the unsaved majority. One very
relevant New Testament scripture is Romans 2: 28-29.
We don't know exactly where we are in the timeline leading to the
return of Christ, so we don't know exactly when the 144,000 will began
their ministry.
Christ says in Matthew 24: 21 that "...for there shall be then
tribulation great such as not has been from the beginning of the world
until now..." This is from the George Berry Interlinear, 1958
For the Westcott-Hort Greek text, which is the basis for almost all
recent translations, used more by the dispensationalists, but not by
all of them, there is also no article in front of the Greek word
thlipis, or tribulation.
There is no article in front of tribulation, no "THE great
tribulation." Scripture has no authority for "the great tribulation" the theology of dispensationalism implies will be recognizable by most when it begins - apparently with their one man super anti-Christ appearing and desecrating a re-built temple in Jerusalem. Since this may be part of their comic book fables, no such world leader super one man anti-Christ may be recognized and agreed upon by them and others, and so how are they, and others, to know when their seven year THE Tribulation begins?
There will be great tribulation during the last years
of this age before Christ returns. The dispensationalist seven year
tribulation is an inference from and interpretation of Daniel 9: 27.
We might have reason to believe that tribulation during the last
years and months of this age will get worse and worse.
So, we don't know exactly when the 144,000 will begin their work. But
there is now a Remnant who contend for the faith once delivered to the
saints.
When Christ was born as a man and began his ministry, he did not work
from within
the religious establishment of his time. The religious establishment
then were the Pharisees and the Sadducees. He said "...beware of the
leaven of the Pharisees and the Sadducees." (Matthew 16: 11).
Christ and his disciples operated out in the metaphoric wilderness and
often in the literal one, outside of organized society.
Just as the majority on the broad way went into apostasy not once but
several times during the Old Covenant, so the organization now
claiming to be the Body of Christ, different from Israel reborn in
Christ, has gone into apostasy, which is the falling away (II
Thessalonians 2: 3-4). Luke 13:21 says leaven was hid in three
measures of meal, until the whole was leavened. The whole what? The
institution claiming to be the Body of Christ, the "church" was said
to become leavened - over time.
Revelation 18: 4 is then applied to the leavened "church"and to its
condition after the falling away. "Come out of her, my people, that
ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her
plagues." "Her" refers back to Revelation 17: 1-11.
The 144,000 are not members of the "church." They have already come
out of "her," and are in the metaphoric wilderness (Revelation 12: 6,
14). Likewise, the Remnant of Israel (Isaiah 10: 21-22, Zephaniah 3:
12-13, Revelation 12: 17) during the last years of this age are not
part of the "church," but are out in the metaphoric wilderness, like
1 And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.
4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.
5 And in their mouth was found no guile; for they are without fault before the throne of God.
Well�I don�t read Any " Metaphoric Wilderness " in the Scripture of Revelations nor in the Scripture Angel posted�but I do understand what you are saying and how you are seeing it Halfback�
Rev 14:1 ~ These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.
*** I take this quite Literally�.and I see the 144,000 as the � Elect � not the � Remnant ��for Christ Jesus is the �Elect� per the Hebrew/Jewish OT/NT Scriptures and the FIRST Fruits unto His Father...GOD...And those that follow after him�as He asked them to...are in Rev 14:1 �being the firstfruits unto GOD and the Lamb (Jesus)�( aka Saints )�and we�Gentiles�are the �Beloved� in Christ Jesus�Remember�the People that were NOT God�s people but now ARE God�s people � In the Beloved ��� In Christ Jesus ��the Remnant I believe is a small group of people...Hebrews/Israel/Jews/Christians...but what I believe doesn't make a bit of Differance in GOD's plan...does it now ???...:purpleangel:...xo
One thing for sure that we do know... no one from CDFF will be in that great 144,000 number:ROFL: sorry, PJ maybe you will be in the other great number:angel::laugh:
I am Amillenial, and my question for those who are not, is how could John, who was being shown a vision, "see" one hundred and forty four thousand" People?
If you were shown a photo or visual image of one hundred and forty four thousand people, would you be able to count them?
John's Revelation is the most highly symbolic book in the Bible, and I believe the number is symbolic and represents all True Christians, or God's elect, or the church, which is called "Israel" in the New Testament.
James is speaking in his carnal mind, and I think its time James consider and ponder over for himself, the passage he is always giving out to you and others:
I Corinthians chapter 2:12 What we have received is not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, so that we may understand what God has freely given us. This is what we speak, not in words taught us by human wisdom but in words taught by the Spirit, explaining spiritual realities with Spirit-taught words.14 The person without the Spirit DOES NOT accept the things that come from the Spirit of God but considers them foolishness, and cannot understand them because they are discerned only through the Spirit.
This revelation is being given to John who was caught up in the Holy Spirit of God who was showing him all things that will happen, this was not John's own personal vision, which means revelation.
Also, we are not told that John SAW these things, for the passages says that he HEARD the number, and it does not say this is the church or the elect,etc.... but it says what it says, and means what it says as the Spirit revealed it to John: Revelation chapter 7:Then I HEARD the number of those who were sealed: 144,000 from all the tribes of Israel.
From the tribe of Judah 12,000 were sealed, from the tribe of Reuben 12,000, from the tribe of Gad 12,000, from the tribe of Asher 12,000, from the tribe of Naphtali 12,000, from the tribe of Manasseh 12,000, from the tribe of Simeon 12,000, from the tribe of Levi 12,000, from the tribe of Issachar 12,000, from the tribe of Zebulun 12,000, from the tribe of Joseph 12,000, from the tribe of Benjamin 12,000.
The question is, If a Christian were to become free of the influence of amillennialism or dispensationalism would he still resist the 144,000 being a group called out for a mission during tribulation, who are born again and who follow the doctrines of the New Testament? Following the doctrines of the New Testament means they are not relying upon their genetic identity for entry into the group. Many of the qualifications for entry into the 144,000 are given in Revelation 14: 4-5. And - saying they are "virgins" does not mean they are literal virgins; it is a metaphor saying they are not under bondage to the figure described in Revelation 17: 1-11, Mystery Babylon the Great, Babylon as religion.
The qualifications for entry into the 144,000 are also given, in part, in Zephaniah 3: 12-13, on the Remnant of Israel, and some of these qualifications are the same as in Revelation 14: 4-5.
If someone resists Daniel 11: 33 as applying to the mission of the 144,000 this is interesting, and the resistance too may come out of dispensationalism. I am not completely sure why dispensationalism would oppose the use of Daniel 11 to apply to any end time events - except that the founders and shakers of dispensationalism and celebrities like Hal Lindsey and Tim LaHaye do not make use of Daniel 11, as far as I know. The North Versus South focus of Daniel 11 may not fit the dispensationalist end time prophecy scenarios. To make it fit, they might have to revise some of their standard scenarios described by my friend Chris Ardern as fables of comic book theology. Chris recently posted a kind of legal-like letter his church sent him, booting him out of their ekklesia, or "church." That was two years ago. Apparently he didn't go willingly out of the "church;" he was kicked out.
