Author	Thread: All who are in Christ: Would the 1st century believers...
Agapeton View Profile History	All who are in Christ: Would the 1st century believers... Posted : 3 Jan, 2012 11:14 PM Identify with our modern "church" gathering service today? Seriously. Do you think that our modern gathering of ourselves is the same now as it was in the 1st century? I know that this topic will be flooded with plenty on remarks from several self proclaimed spiritually adept believers who protest my intentions as I post this, but this is a serious question that we must all ask ourselves. Do we really know about the modern practices at the gathering of the saints? Can we actually find any Scriptural support for the order of worship on Sunday mornings? 1. The Greetings. ( As you enter the building, an usher greets and gives you some literature. ) 2. Prayer or Scripture Reading. (Usually given by pastor or leader in the church.) 3. The song service. (Given by an individual song leader or by a group. ) 4. The announcements. (Up coming events. ) 5. The Offering. (Usually accompanied with musical accompaniment. ) 6. The Sermon. 7. The Benediction. (Ending prayer, blessing, or a song to end the service. ) Some minor variations may include alter calls, prayer and the Lord's Supper. (If you're a church going Christian, it is likely that you observe the same perfunctory order of worship every time you go to church no matter what denomination you belong to.) Is this the way that the 1st century church met and performed it, or is this a tradition that has been instituted by men? Can we really say that the structure of the practice is the same? Can we honestly say that this is how God intended the gatherings to be today? I will post a small a break down of where these traditions came about with enough information in each point that can be easily researched by the individual and then can be discussed further in this topic. 1. The Greetings: As you enter the building, an usher greets and gives you some literature. The "usher" originated from Queen Elizabeth's day (1533-1603 ). They were responsible for walking people to their reserved seats to ensure that the seat wasn't taken. ( It also has its ties in the 3rd century.) They were in charge of collecting the offering, keeping records of who took the communion, keeping order in the building, and providing general direction to the laity. 2. Prayer or Scripture Reading: Usually given by pastor or leader in the church. See 4. 3. The song service: Given by an individual song leader or by a group. It originated with Constantin. Choirs were developed and trained to celebrate the Eucharist. The custom was borrowed from Roman customs in imperial ceremonies with processional music. Its roots also tie into pagan Greek temples and Greek dramas. The Greeks trained choirs to accompany their pagan worship. In 367 ad, congregational singing and was banned and replaced by music by trained choirs. 4. The announcements or up coming events: This is something that came about during the reformation. John Calvin, John Knox, and Martin Bucer added to the liturgical practices around the mid 15th century. 5. The Offering (Usually accompanied with music.): This falls into tithing. Although it is in the Bible, it is not a Christian practice. Tithing was a requirement for the Jews in the Old Testament and done away with in the New Testament by Christ. Tithing was something that Cyprian of Carthage argued to financially support the clergy. It was later adapted by Constantine. Later (in the 7th and 8th century), it was adapted by the churches to pay land that was leased to people in Charlemagne's day in Western Europe. It was a required law of the land. The law faded in the 10th century, but the practice didn't. Don't get me wrong. Donating for the needs of the poor was always a voluntary thing, but it became a " moral, legal mandatory religious requirement" in later centuries. 6. The Sermon: I can go deeper in this discussion, but I'll point out that it has it's early ties in early Greco-Roman culture. Clement of Alexandria even stated that sermons did little to change Christians. It was popularized by sophists who were expert debaters, and used emotional appeals, physical appearances to "sell" their arguments. Pastor led churches is another lengthy discussion completely. 7. The Benediction. (Ending prayer, blessing, or a song to end the service.): This came about in the 17th century that was introduced by Methodists. They are responsible for the "emotional decision based" conversion. (Pentecostals adopted this brand of worship.) The Frontier-Revivalists charged up the person's soul and tried to elicit an emotional response to "God's salvation plan." The "alter call," later, and pragmatism (Lorenzo Dow and Charles Finney.) Was introduced. D. L. Moody was also heavily influenced by this and the "end times" teachings of the Plymouth Brethren. He was the first to ask those who wanted to be saved to be lead up from their seats and be led into the "sinner's prayer" and also gave us the "gospel song." Now, given the fact that when Christ came, the Jewish hierarchy was done away with and we were all made priests through his blood being shed; how can we say that the modern structure of worship in Christianity is what God had intended when it seems that we have strayed so far from the original practice? How can we explain the fact that before Constantin there was no need for a church building for Christians to thrive, grow, and flourish in Christ and it be the only source of spiritual growth today? Post Reply
Agapeton View Profile History	All who are in Christ: Would the 1st century believers... Posted : 3 Jan, 2012 11:17 PM Why is it that Christianity did not raise special buildings for worship until Constantin's day? Could it be that Christians knew that the Temple form of worship would be done away with in Christ, the only Temple that would be raised up? Did the Christians know that the time to worship would be in Spirit and in truth and that there would be no need to worship Christ on mountain tops or in certain special places? (John 4:23-24). Did they know that the only sacrifices to be offered were spiritual ones such as Praise and thanksgiving ( Heb. 13:15; 1 Pet. 2:5)? How can we reconcile that when the church evolved in the later centuries, it absorbed many of the religious practices of both pagans and Jews? How could the Ekklesia: 1. Set up a professional priesthood? 2. Raise sacred buildings and turned the Lord's Supper, a breaking of the bread with fellow believers, into a mysterious sacrifice? How can we believers, complain about the things which the Roman Catholic Church does when those same elements still exist in our current structure of worship today? Protestants, although they reformed, scarcely veered from this formula. Can we find any sort of Biblical foundation for the worship structure of the meeting at church now in light of the New Testament epistles, or do we also suffer the same thing that Jesus rebuked the Pharisee about when He said "Well did Isaiah prophesy of you hypocrites, as it is written, This people honors me with their lips, but their heart is far from me; in vain do they worship me, teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.' You leave the commandment of God and hold to the tradition of men." How can we Christians explain that we now " have a fine way of rejecting the commandment of God in order to establish our new tradition"? Btw, this is not posted to incite any bashing or hatred of one denomination over another. It is just for discussion. Thanks for your thoughts, insights and comments. :peace: Post Reply
Agapeton View Profile History	All who are in Christ: Would the 1st century believers... Posted : 3 Jan, 2012 11:23 PM This is a re-post. Please go to this topic, thanks. http://www.christiandatingforfree.com/forum/forum_details.php?topic_id=13936&forum_sub_cat_id=14&start=0 Post Reply
View Profile History	All who are in Christ: Would the 1st century believers... Posted : 4 Jan, 2012 02:21 AM Carnality and in Christ are not in agreement the heart of strife is evil. Post Reply
Agapeton View Profile History	All who are in Christ: Would the 1st century believers... Posted : 4 Jan, 2012 04:37 AM Yes, PJ. With that in mind, how do we not discern which is carnality in the church of God knowing that most of these things i described came in later on in the faith when in the beginning there was no such thing and ALL the believers had a right to speak amongst one another in order at a gathering? 1Co 14:26 What then, brothers? When you come together,EACH ONE has a hymn, a lesson, a revelation, a tongue, or an interpretation. Let all things be done for building up. 1Co 14:26 How is it then, brethren? when ye come together, EVERY ONE OF YOU HATH hath a psalm, hath a doctrine, hath a tongue, hath a revelation, hath an interpretation. Let all things be done unto edifying. Has the modern structured gatherings taken out the God given ability for the individual believer top edify one another and reveal something that the Lord has given him/her? 1 Co 14:31 For ye may ALL prophesy one by one, that all may learn, and all may be comforted. 1Co 14:31 For YOU CAN ALLl prophesy one by one, so that all may learn and all be encouraged, What say you, brother? Post Reply
View Profile History	All who are in Christ: Would the 1st century believers... Posted : 4 Jan, 2012 04:51 AM You have said you do not believe those truth's, they all come with the gift of the Holy Ghost. Post Reply
elishabroadway View Profile History	All who are in Christ: Would the 1st century believers... Posted : 4 Jan, 2012 05:03 AM no agapeton, of corse things are not the same as tey were in the first centurty. it would be obserd to say they were! we have no way of knowing exsactly howthey worshiped but I am sure they sang aongs and I am also ure that being concerned about keeping the traditions of the 1st century church would be legalistic! I dont see one reason why we shouldnt worship however we see fit (we being a unified body of believers) My church is an old wooden building with a tin roof and concrete floors it has grass growing p through the cracks I go and clean it every 2 weeks and pull the grass up and spary for ants, furthermore our service is not like you described we certainly dont have ushers handing out anything we sit down and first we sing then there are some that sing special songs maybe whoever wants to gets up it doesnt hjave to be planned then the preacher preaches then we have a prayers service wich may include an alter call ,also incluse having special prayer where we lay hands on someone and anoint them with oil , then wqe have a prayer list that we anoint and pray over for prayer requests, after all of that we then gice the offering its nothing like most churches thouigh we are free to speak out if we have a question or something to add ! Post Reply
shalom716 View Profile History	All who are in Christ: Would the 1st century believers... Posted : 4 Jan, 2012 05:58 AM There seems to be a stronghold in peoples minds of how worship and church should be done. A lot is based on man-made traditions that have been going on for years and people accept this as how things should be done. I believe as the days become darker and more persecution comes churches will have to choose between conforming to the government or get shut down. Already, they can not preach against homosexuality, so isn't this an example of a watered down gospel? I believe the remnant will have to gather in homes and take care of one another. Christians are already considered intolerant by the government and certain groups are labeled as terrorist. The laws that are currently being passed in congress (National Defense Bill and Martial Law) will allow protesters to be arrested and detained because of their rebellion against the government...the NWO is here!! Post Reply
View Profile History	All who are in Christ: Would the 1st century believers... Posted : 4 Jan, 2012 07:10 AM Don't believe it will happen in this country before Jesus returns. Post Reply
shalom716 View Profile History	All who are in Christ: Would the 1st century believers... Posted : 4 Jan, 2012 07:23 AM Well its already happening...why do u think all these countries leaders have been removed and people protesting all over the world, they want a NWO! Islam is taking over the world!! It is all happening right before our eyes, look it up on youtube, do u watch the news?? Post Reply
View Profile History	All who are in Christ: Would the 1st century believers... Posted : 4 Jan, 2012 07:27 AM Sure I can see that, and our place is to pray, the platform is being set for the tribulation, but watch what happens in this country this year, you can not hear what is happennung in the kingdom of God in the media. Post Reply

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