is there ANY evidence of a hierarchy WITHIN the Trinity...
Posted : 23 Jan, 2012 01:01 PM
Within the Scriptures? Seriously, I was just pondering about the wonders of our Lord and it suddenly dawned on me.
The Scriptures really don't show a hierarchy within the Godhead anywhere in the Scriptures of the three essences with the exception of Jesus leaving all of His majesty, honor, authority, and power on the throne to become a man and be subject to the Father. But other than that part of the Scriptures ALL THREE ARE EQUAL in power and authority from one another.
I honestly think that the only ones who separate the "authority" between the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit is mankind because we tend to put a "label" on something in order to make it easier to understand it on our human terms.
What do you think? Is there such a thing as a hierarchy between the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit in the Scriptures? If so, then please present the Scriptures to show it so that we may all learn from it.
By the way, this is purely for discussion purposes and not to bash anyone's knowledge of anything here. So the Phorum Pharisitically minded people please be peaceable or stay out of the topic.
is there ANY evidence of a hierarchy WITHIN the Trinity...
Posted : 23 Jan, 2012 02:07 PM
The only response I can make to this is from my perspective, I don't think you can truly understand the majesty of the Father,Son and Holy Spirit, the depth of His Love, the pure omniscent nature of His being. I believe to try to explain somethings in human terms gives irreverance to His sovereign Holy, supernatural ways. :bow:
is there ANY evidence of a hierarchy WITHIN the Trinity...
Posted : 23 Jan, 2012 02:36 PM
I agree, sister but we do have the Scriptures to give us a pretty good idea of the trinity though. That is how we have come to conclude that He is "omniscient". Correct?
With that being said, I do not recall a single verse in Scripture showing that there is a hierarchy WITHIN the Godhead other than one we humans have implied throughout history without any Scriptural proof of it and made it a theologically accepted tradition.
But I could be wrong though if someone provides a verse or two to show it.
is there ANY evidence of a hierarchy WITHIN the Trinity...
Posted : 23 Jan, 2012 04:06 PM
Good post brother
Shared ~ The Scriptures really don't show a hierarchy within the Godhead anywhere in the Scriptures of the three essences [[[ with the exception of Jesus leaving all of His majesty, honor, authority, and power on the throne to become a man and be subject to the Father. ]]] But other than that part of the Scriptures ALL THREE ARE EQUAL in power and authority from one another.
*** Jesus leaving all His majesty, honor, authority and power to become a man and be subject to the Fathers [ will ]�added for emphasis�is so humble�never a truer servant of the Godhead that�s for sure�He took the lowest seat in hierarchy of the Godhead and yet is become Exalted above All�Exalted occurs in 8 verses in the KJV� ;-)
Neh 9:5, Eze 31:5, 1Ch 29:11, Psa 57:5, Psa 57:11, Psa 97:9, Psa 108:5, Isa 2:2� Not really what you were seeking in scriptures about the Godhead but these came to mind�
My Fav being...
Eze 31:5~ Therefore his height was exalted above all the trees of the field, and his boughs were multiplied, and his branches became long because of the multitude of waters, when he shot forth.
Shared ~ I honestly think that the only ones who separate the "authority" between the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit is mankind because we tend to put a [[[ "label" ]]] on something in order to make it easier to understand it on our human terms.
*** I agree�finite / minds / people tend to put [ labels ] on infinite / eternity all the time�its difficult to explain Awesomeness !!!�xo
is there ANY evidence of a hierarchy WITHIN the Trinity...
Posted : 23 Jan, 2012 05:30 PM
"In the Scriptures we find that the plan of redemption takes the form of a covenant, not merely between God and His people but between the different Persons within the Trinity, so that there is, as it were, a division of labour, each Person voluntarily assuming a particular part of the work. lst, - To the Father is ascribed primarily the work of Creation, together with the election of a certain number of individuals whom He has given to the Son. The Father is in general the Author of the plan of redemption. 2nd, - To the Son is ascribed the work of redemption, to accomplish which He became incarnate, assuming human nature in order that, as the federal head and representative of His people, He might, as their substitute, assume the guilt of their sin and suffer a full equivalent for the penalty of eternal death which rested upon them. He thus made full satisfaction to the demands of justice, which demands are expressed in the words, "The soul that sinneth, it shall die," and, "The wages of sin is death." Also, in His capacity as the federal head and representative of His people, He covenanted to keep the law of perfect obedience which was originally given to their forefather Adam in his representative capacity, which law Adam had broken and had thereby plunged the race into a state of guilt and ruin. Identifying Himself thus with His people, He paid the penalty which rested on them and earned their salvation. Acting as their King and Saviour, and also as Head of the Church which He thus forms, He directs the advancing kingdom and is ever present with His people. 3rd, - To the Holy Spirit is ascribed the works of Regeneration and Sanctification, or the application to the hearts of individuals of the objective atonement which has been wrought out by Christ. This He does by spiritually renewing their hearts, working in them faith and repentance, cleansing them of every taint of sin, and eventually glorifying them in heaven. Redemption, in the broad sense, is thus a matter of pure grace, being planned by the Father, purchased by the Son, and applied by the Holy Spirit."
is there ANY evidence of a hierarchy WITHIN the Trinity...
Posted : 23 Jan, 2012 06:35 PM
GodsJude Posted: Good post brother
]
ME: Thanks sister.
*** Jesus leaving all His majesty, honor, authority and power to become a man and be subject to the Fathers [ will ]�added for emphasis�is so humble�never a truer servant of the Godhead that�s for sure�He took the lowest seat in hierarchy of the Godhead and yet is become Exalted above All�Exalted occurs in 8 verses in the KJV� ;-)
Neh 9:5, Eze 31:5, 1Ch 29:11, Psa 57:5, Psa 57:11, Psa 97:9, Psa 108:5, Isa 2:2� Not really what you were seeking in scriptures about the Godhead but these came to mind�
ME: Thank you my sweet sister. I do agree as to Jesus becoming lower by way of giving up the EQUALITY (Phil. 2:6) He had in order to redeem us by becoming a lowly man and obeying the death on the cross for us (Phil. 2:6-8) on earth but He was. is, and always shall be equal in authority with God. So that is where I see no hierarchy within the Godhead as it is supposed today.
Let me not be confused though. I do believe as it writtenin the Athanasian Creed, �The Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God, yet there are not three gods, but one God.�
So within classic Christianity we see that God is a fellowship of three persons: Father, Son, and Spirit. The Godhead is a Community of three, or a �Trinity� as theologians call it. I like using the Godhead more because it is more appropriate for my tastes.
A theologian Stanley Grenz says that God�s triune nature means that God is social or relational�God is the �social Trinity.� So we can sort of say that God is �community.� God is the community of the Father, Son, and Spirit, who enjoy perfect and eternal fellowship.
That community of the Godhead should not only influence us believers, but should be emulated within the body of Christ, His Church.
I've been looking into John's gospel lately and in it, we see that within the "community" of the Godhead, there is a mutual love, mutual fellowship, mutual dependence, mutual honor, mutual submission, mutual dwelling, and authentic community. In the Godhead there exists an eternal, complementary, and reciprocal interchange of divine life, divine love, and divine fellowship.
SirJames Posted( a website's response to a question that didn't answer while making an erroneous first statement.) : ""In the Scriptures we find that the plan of redemption takes the form of a covenant, not merely between God and His people but between the different Persons within the Trinity, so that there is, as it were, a division of labour, each Person voluntarily assuming a particular part of the work."
ME: Bother, thanks for this answer but in all out honesty, I'm not talking about "covenants" between the Godhead because there is no such thing mentioned in Scripture. As a matter of fact, the 1st statement is completely worn because all three persons had a part within the creation. Let's take a look at what it continued to say..
"lst, - To the Father is ascribed primarily the work of Creation, together with the election of a certain number of individuals whom He has given to the Son. The Father is in general the Author of the plan of redemption..."
ME: It is stated in Genesis' first three verses. God the father "spoke" things into being through the "Word" and His His Spirit was there in the process.
The Word was was there in the beginning (John 1:1) and by Him all things were made ( John 1:3; Heb. 1:3). But The Word was completely EQUAL with God before he became a man Phil. 2:6).
The Godhead has equal authority.
The rest is all informative but not at all pertaining to what I'm speaking about. But thanks for taking the time to google and post it, brother.
Here is what i found so far:
The Father loved the Word before the foundation of the world. (John 17:24). The world must learn that Jesus loves the Father (John 14:31). There was a mutual love flowing within the Godhead before the foundation of the world. In Genesis, there is also fellowship within the Godhead (Gen. 1:26) which is actually sharing counsel and planning. They even speak in the same thing at the same time of what they know and see (John 3:11). The Son lives by the life of the Father (5:26; 6:57). The Son shares and expresses the glory of the Father (13:31�32; 17:4�5). The Son lives within the Father and the Father lives within the Son (1:18; 14:10). The Son lives in complete dependence upon the Father (5:19). The Son reflects the Father in His words and deeds (12:49; 14:9). The Father glorifies the Son (1:14; 8:50, 54; 12:23; 16:14; 17:1, 5, 22, 24), and the Son exalts the Father (7:18; 14:13; 17:1, 4; 20:17).
Now, with that being said, this same relationship has to be emulated within the body of Christ. This act of "community" has been passed down from the Father to the Son, from the Son to the church (John 6:57; 15:9; 20:21) on earth, the body of the Lord Jesus Christ.
We, the believers, the church, are the extension of God that was concieved before the foundation of the earth ( Ephesians 1:4-5).
As a matter of fact, the church is the image of the heavenly God on earth (Ephesians 1:22-23).
With that in mind:
Why do we place "labels of authority" WITHIN the Godhead?
And what is more of an interesting question that comes to mind is:
Why do we find the need to put "labels" AND "authorities" WITHIN the Body of Christ when Scripture shows otherwise?
Any thoughts on what comes to mind?
GodsJude Posted: I agree�finite / minds / people tend to put [ labels ] on infinite / eternity all the time�its difficult to explain Awesomeness !!!�xo
ME: Amen sister! We humans tend to try to explain the unexplainable with symbols, labels, and preconceptions that sometimes blur the image that is clearly laid out.
is there ANY evidence of a hierarchy WITHIN the Trinity...
Posted : 24 Jan, 2012 10:26 AM
To be able to understand Omnipotence,Omniscience,and Omnipresence,one has to have these three attributes themself.
When believers in Yeshua have been clothed in their NEW BODIES,even then we will not understand the OMNI-attributes of the Triune Godhead,for all of eternity we will still be depending upon the Triune Godhead for our existence.
Isa 42:8 I am Jehovah; that is My name; and I will not give My glory to another, nor My praise to engraved images.
is there ANY evidence of a hierarchy WITHIN the Trinity...
Posted : 24 Jan, 2012 10:48 AM
POIC, I agree brother, we finite minded may not be able to fully understand God's omni's but Scripture surely shows us bits of it throughout it.
But what I'm trying to get at is the expression of the Godhead is what we, the body are to emulate by way of love, authority, and community. Since there is no hierarchial authority within the Godhead, then there should be no other hierarchial rule in the Body to emulate such. Do you agree?
is there ANY evidence of a hierarchy WITHIN the Trinity...
Posted : 24 Jan, 2012 11:20 AM
The Spirit of God is a distinct personality.
However, that spiritual substance which the Father and the Son share is not an impersonal substance or a mindless force, but is throughout scripture attributed a separate personality.
For instance, in Genesis 1:1-2, God speaks out his Word while the "spirit of God" hovers over the waters. Likewise at the Incarnation, the angel spoke the words of the Father and the Holy Spirit came upon Mary to conceive the Son. Luke 1:29-38. The Holy Spirit has spoken to people, and continues to speak, directly and personally (3). The Spirit also, as a distinct person, has a mind and experiences emotions .
is there ANY evidence of a hierarchy WITHIN the Trinity...
Posted : 24 Jan, 2012 01:34 PM
BY definition of the word GOD-HEAD, lets us know the hierachy within the Trinity, that God is the HEAD of His OWN Divine order and divine nature and His OWN HIERARCHY.
This also lets us know that Jesus Chist and the Holy Spirit are subordinates in the devine diety of who God the Father is, and who God the Jesus is, and who God the holy Sprit is in realtionship to the Trinity, YET they are all ONE.
I like this from our church's statement of faith: We believe that in the unity of the Godhead, there are Three Personas: GOD THE FATHER, GOD THE SON, and GOD THE HOLY SPIRIT; equals ONE, in every Divine Perfection, executing distinct but, harmonious offices in the great works of redemption of mankind.:yay:
