I asked a question on another thread and was told is was silly and irrelevant. The question was : Is it likely that a man on a deserted island with only a Bible would come up with Calvinism, Tulip, The Doctrines of Grace, Reformation Theology (all the same thing).
I think it is a totally relevant question and not silly at all. Here is why: If a person cannot read the Bible alone and come to Calvinism on their own then 'logically' Calvinism must come from a source outside the Bible.
Well by himself no, but with the help of The prince of Darkness yes.
The reformers word is reformation theology.
No some what say that is not true, but I have yet to have the audacity to call Jesus a liar, in otherwords saying the word of God does not mean what it says.
Can you imagine opening up the bible even as a sinner, and studying it and coming up with the conclusion that man in spiritual death, could not respond spiritually to the lord. Yes I believe one would have to have spiritual help to believe the tulip and to proclaim it as the truth, and the helper is not the holy spirit.
Reformer's Holy Spirit: Church History and all the giants of reformation theology.
You are being dishonest. You asked if a man on an island was given a bible would he come up with "Tulip" by him/herself. Whether he/she did or didn't would prove nothing.
twosparrows - If a person cannot read the Bible alone and come to Calvinism on their own then 'logically' Calvinism must come from a source outside the Bible.
Ryan - They don't have to come to "Calvinism". You miss the whole point. The burden of proof is on you to show that a man would not come to monergistic salvation. That is something that you cannot do.
Shared ~ " The burden of Proof "...There is No Burden of Proof...The Proof is the Person on the Island would not read in the Pages of the Holy Bible the 5 points of Calvinism aka "Tulip" or Calvins Doctrine...Truth...GOD / Jesus needs NO Proof...xo
I asked a question on another thread and was told is was silly and irrelevant. The question was : Is it likely that a man on a deserted island with only a Bible would come up with Calvinism, Tulip, The Doctrines of Grace, Reformation Theology (all the same thing).
I think it is a totally relevant question and not silly at all. Here is why: If a person cannot read the Bible alone and come to Calvinism on their own then 'logically' Calvinism must come from a source outside the Bible.
James replies:
Your 'logic' is wrong. First off, the Bible itself says that we need Teachers and that is because the Bible is about 700 pages from an ancient middle East culture. If your man on the Island is from the west, and is NOT a scholar of the highest order, then I highly doubt if he would come to understand the Bible as much as the COLLECTIVE WISDOM OF THE CHURCH.
IF, the man was born again, then if he was literate, then he could understand that it is faith in Jesus that saves Him.
I also think that if he was literate that he might very well accept that God is sovereign in salvation. I myself read Romans 9 as a new Christian and accepted that God has a right to do with His creation as He pleases, and that God was the one who saved me. I did this without ever knowing of the word "Calvinism".
A person can read the Bible alone, if they are literate and understand the basics of the Gospel, that he needs to turn from sin and trust in Jesus. But once you get beyond that, you need a teacher, you need the body of Christ. And this goes for ALL the deep things in Scripture. Would your man on the island be able to develop the doctrine of the Trinity by himself?
I doubt it. What about his view of Revelation??
Same thing. Twosparrows, you THINK what you are debating against is me and maybe some other Calvinists that stop by, but what you are kicking against is the collective wisdom of Christians for two thousand years.
You should forget about me. I am just one Christian man from a small town in Missouri. You have all of church history, and the Early church fathers, and Augustine, and Anselm, and Turtullian, and Iraneaus and Knox and Luther, and on and on.
I think you should just ask me for a list of books to buy, and then order them, and read them.
Jude hit the nail on the head! No proof needed! james, We all see that twosparrows isn't just "debating you". What he's doing is standing against false doctrine and false teaching. If you would ever come to the Truth, you would have an awesome testimony about how God delivered you from the bondage of Calvinism! The bottom line is none of us want to see you or ryan either one so deceived by the enemy.
Thank you born again for saying what you did, that was a very loving, kind response.
James 5:19 Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him;
James 5:20 Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.
Jude 1:15 � To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.
1:16 These are murmurers, complainers, walking after their own lusts; and their mouth speaketh great swelling words, having men�s persons in admiration because of advantage.
1:17 But, beloved, remember ye the words which were spoken before of the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ;
1:18 How that they told you there should be mockers in the last time, who should walk after their own ungodly lusts.
1:19 These be they who separate themselves, sensual, having not the Spirit.
1:20 But ye, beloved, building up yourselves on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Ghost,
1:21 Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life.
1:22 And of some have compassion, making a difference:
1:23 And others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire; hating even the garment spotted by the flesh.
simply put, the proof is in how many Christians who have never been taught reformation theology who profess the doctrines of grace. I know of none, nor have I ever heard of any.
James,
Although you make some good points, I disagree with your position that the Bible and the Holy Spirit are not enough for full understanding. You are beginning to sound like a Catholic...lol!
