Thread: Answering Archimedes claims about Calvinism/atonement
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Answering Archimedes claims about Calvinism/atonement
Posted : 28 Aug, 2011 06:28 PM
I have asked Archimedes to drop the "Calvin made it up"routine more than once, but now it seems it is his favorite trick.
Here is what he said today:
"Calvin not only Wrote about his New Gospel of T.U.L.I.P. � but he also Taught it and PREACHED IT! No One�s Misinterpreting Calvin. T.U.L.I.P. is Calvin�s New Gospel�it�s his Baby�his Theology."
Got that? It is a "New" Gospel. Now for those who are interested in Church history, the Reformers would not even listen to your interpretation of Scripture UNLESS you could show your beliefs from the writings of the Early church fathers.
Since I have told Arch to drop it, and he won't, here is my promised response to him about showing quotes by the Early church fathers.
I realize that some on here are not looking for the truth, but I think some of you are, so here are a few quotes by the Early church fathers that show that they believed that Jesus died for the elect, and NOT everyone who ever lived.
This way, the next time Arch claims "Calvin made it all up", you will know that Christians in the Early church believed the same thing over a THOUSAND YEARS BEFORE Calvin was born.
The following is a list of several patristic quotations (previously posted at the link) that relate to the topic of the atonement. Some affirm limited atonement, some are simply germane to the topic of the atonement without necessarily affirming limited atonement. The last two show that interpreting 1 John 2:1-2 the way that Calvin did was not new to Calvin.
This is by no means an exhaustive list, and it is not intended to be a representative list. There are a lot of odd statements by the church fathers on the atonement, and a lot of strange theories that some of them adopted. Also, just because they adopted a view of limited atonement (in the sense of understanding that Christ was offered to bear the sins of the elect or in that he redeemed the elect in particular) does not mean that they held to a thoroughly "Calvinist" (what an anachronism to call it that!) understanding of TULIP. This, therefore, provides some patristic views of the atonement.
Ambrose (c. 339-97): Although Christ suffered for all, yet He suffered for us particularly, because He suffered for the Church. Saint Ambrose of Milan, Exposition of the Holy Gospel according to Saint Luke, trans. Theodosia Tomkinson (Etna: Center for Traditionalist Orthodox Studies, 1998), Book VI, �25, p. 201.
PL 15:1675.
Ambrose (c. 339-97): Great, therefore, is the mystery of Christ, before which even angels stood amazed and bewildered. For this cause, then, it is thy duty to worship Him, and, being a servant, thou oughtest not to detract from thy Lord. Ignorance thou mayest not plead, for to this end He came down, that thou mayest believe; if thou believest not, He has not come down for thee, has not suffered for thee. "If I had not come," saith the Scripture, "and spoken with them, they would have no sin: but now have they no excuse for their sin. He that hateth Me, hateth My Father also." Who, then, hates Christ, if not he who speaks to His dishonor? -- for as it is love's part to render, so it is hate's to withdraw honor. He who hates, calls in question; he who loves, pays reverence. NPNF2: Vol.: Volume X, Of the Christian Faith, Book IV, Chapter 2, �27.
Ambrosiaster: The people of God hath its own fulness. In the elect and foreknown, distinguished from the generality of all, there is accounted a certain special universality; so that the whole world seems to be delivered from the whole world, and all men to be taken out of all men. See Works of John Owen, Vol. 10, p. 423.
PL 17:1084.
Jerome (347-420) on Matthew 20:28: He does not say that he gave his life for all, but for many, that is, for all those who would believe. See Turretin, Vol. 2, p. 462.
PL 26:144-145.
Hilary of Arles (c. 401-449) commenting on 1 John 2:2: When John says that Christ died for the sins of the "whole world," what he means is that he died for the whole church. Introductory Commentary on 1 John. Gerald Bray, ed., Ancient Christian Commentary on Scripture: New Testament, Vol. XI, James, 1-2 Peter, 1-3 John, Jude (Downers Grove: InterVarsity Press, 2000), p. 177.
Cap. II, v. 2, PL Supp. 3:118.
Augustine (354-430): 2. But alongside of this love we ought also patiently to endure the hatred of the world. For it must of necessity hate those whom it perceives recoiling from that which is loved by itself. But the Lord supplies us with special consolation from His own case, when, after saying, "These things I command you, that ye love one another," He added, "If the world hate you, know that it hated me before [it hated] you." Why then should the member exalt itself above the head? Thou refusest to be in the body if thou art unwilling to endure the hatred of the world along with the Head. "If ye were of the world," He says, "the world would love its own." He says this, of course, of the whole Church, which, by itself, He frequently also calls by the name of the world: as when it is said, "God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto Himself." And this also: "The Son of man came not to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved." And John says in his epistle: "We have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous: and He is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also [for those] of the whole world." The whole world then is the Church, and yet the whole world hateth the Church. The world therefore hateth the world, the hostile that which is reconciled, the condemned that which is saved, the polluted that which is cleansed.
3. But that world which God is in Christ reconciling unto Himself, which is saved by Christ, and has all its sins freely pardoned by Christ, has been chosen out of the world that is hostile, condemned, and defiled. For out of that mass, which has all perished in Adam, are formed the vessels of mercy, whereof that world of reconciliation is composed, that is hated by the world which belongeth to the vessels of wrath that are formed out of the same mass and fitted to destruction. Finally, after saying, "If ye were of the world, the world would love its own," He immediately added, "But because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you." And so these men were themselves also of that world, and, that they might no longer be of it, were chosen out of it, through no merit of their own, for no good works of theirs had preceded; and not by nature, which through free-will had become totally corrupted at its source: but gratuitously, that is, of actual grace. For He who chose the world out of the world, effected for Himself, instead of finding, what He should choose: for "there is a remnant saved according to the election of grace. And if by grace," he adds, "then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace." NPNF1: Vol. VII, Tractates on John, Tractate LXXXVII, �2-3, John 15:17-19.
Augustine (354-430): Hence things that are lawful are not all good, but everything unlawful is not good. Just as everyone redeemed by Christ's blood is a human being, but human beings are not all redeemed by Christ's blood, so too everything that is unlawful is not good, but things that are not good are not all unlawful. As we learn from the testimony of the apostle, there are some things that are lawful but are not good. John E. Rotelle, O.S.A., ed., Works of Saint Augustine, Adulterous Marriages, Part 1, Vol. 9, trans. Ray Kearney, O.P., Book One, 15, 16 (Hyde Park: New City Press, 1999), p. 153.
Chrysostom (349-407) on Hebrews 9:28. "So Christ was once offered.": By whom offered? evidently by Himself. Here he says that He is not Priest only, but Victim also, and what is sacrificed. On this account are [the words] "was offered." "Was once offered" (he says) "to bear the sins of many." Why "of many," and not "of all"? Because not all believed, For He died indeed for all, that is His part: for that death was a counterbalance against the destruction of all men. But He did not bear the sins of all men, because they were not willing. NPNF1: Vol. XIV, Epistle to the Hebrews, Homly 17.
Prosper of Aquitaine (d. 463): He is not crucified with Christ who is not a member of the body of Christ. When, therefore, our Saviour is said to be crucified for the redemption of the whole world, because of his true assumption of the human nature, yet may he be said to be crucified only for them unto whom his death was profitable. . . . Diverse from these is their lot who are reckoned amongst them of whom is is said, 'the world knew him not.'
PL 51:165.
Prosper of Aquitaine (d. 463): Doubtless the propriety of redemption is theirs from whom the prince of this world is cast out. The death of Christ is not to be so laid out for human-kind, that they also should belong unto his redemption who were not to be regenerated.
PL 51:178.
Theodoret of Cyrrhus (393-466) commenting on Hebrews 9:27-28: As it is appointed for each human being to die once, and the one who accepts death's decree no longer sins but awaits the examination of what was done in life, so Christ the Lord, after being offered once for us and taking up our sins, will come to us again, with sin no longer in force, that is, with sin no longer occupying a place as far as human beings are concerned. He said himself, remember, when he still had a mortal body, "He committed no sin, nor was guile found in his mouth." It should be noted, of course, that he bore the sins of many, not of all: not all came to faith, so he removed the sins of the believers only. Robert Charles Hill, Theodoret of Cyrus: Commentary on the Letters of St. Paul, Vol. 2 (Brookline: Holy Cross Orthodox Press, 2001), p. 175.
Bede (672/673-735) commenting on 1 John 2:1: The Lord intercedes for us not by words but by his dying compassion, because he took upon himself the sins which he was unwilling to condemn his elect for. On 1 John. Gerald Bray, ed., Ancient Christian Commentary on Scripture: New Testament, Vol. XI, James, 1-2 Peter, 1-3 John, Jude (Downers Grove: InterVarsity Press, 2000), p. 177.
Latin text: PL 93:89.
Bede (672/673-735) commenting on 1 John 2:2: In his humanity Christ pleads for our sins before the Father, but in his divinity he has propitiated them for us with the Father. Furthermore, he has not done this only for those who were alive at the time of his death, but also for the whole church which is scattered over the full compass of the world, and it will be valid for everyone, from the very first among the elect until the last one who will be born at the end of time. This verse is therefore a rebuke to the Donatists, who thought that the true church was to be found only in Africa. The Lord pleads for the sins of the whole world, because the church which he has bought with his blood exists in every corner of the globe. On 1 John. Gerald Bray, ed., Ancient Christian Commentary on Scripture: New Testament, Vol. XI, James, 1-2 Peter, 1-3 John, Jude (Downers Grove: InterVarsity Press, 2000), p. 178.
Answering Archimedes claims about Calvinism/atonement
Posted : 28 Aug, 2011 09:39 PM
James nothing close not even, not even a hint of particular redemption, by the way trying to state some scriptures as absolute truth, and then ignoring others is pretty obvious.
Answering Archimedes claims about Calvinism/atonement
Posted : 29 Aug, 2011 05:36 AM
When I look at ALL the Biblical Data, and especially the words of Jesus about WHO he died for I see the following:
1. Jesus died for ALL TYPES of people.
Rich, poor, wicked sinners, average sinners, Samaritans, Greeks, Fishermen, mothers, soldiers, etc.
2. Jesus died for people FROM ALL OVER THE WORLD.
Not just Jerusalem, and lets not forget this was a TOTALLY NEW thing that had to be taught.
Before Jesus, you HAD to live near the Temple to obey God, because of the sacrifices for sin.
NOW, suddenly, a person could be right with God WITHOUT living near the Temple, because Jesus was the perfect sacrifice.
Now, this is a wonderful thing, and something WE SHOULD BE HAPPY ABOUT.
But the Arminians on this group demand that Jesus died for every single person who ever lived.
It is a sentimental, promiscuous "love" that gets thrown around to everyone. Here are some reasons I disagree with the Arminians on this:
Additional reasons that the atonement of Christ is not for all the sins of all people
God punishes people in hell, which would be unjust if their sins were atoned for
Mark 9:43-44
If one were to say, �their sins are atoned for, but that atonement is not applied because of unbelief,� he fails to realize that unbelief is likewise a sin
Heb 3:12 [�The Father imposed His wrath due unto, and the Son underwent punishment for either: 1) All the sins of all men; 2) All the sins of some men; or 3) Some of the sins of all men. In which case it may be said: 1) If the last be true all men have some sins to answer for, and so none are saved; 2) That if the second be true, then Christ, in their stead suffered for all the sins of the elect in the whole world, and this is the truth; 3) But if the first is the case, why are not all men free from the punishment due unto their sins? You answer, Because of unbelief. I ask, Is this unbelief a sin, or is it not? If it be, then Christ suffered the punishment due unto it, or He did not. If He did, why must that hinder them more than their other sins for which He died? If He did not, He did not die for all their sins!� � John Owen, The Death of Death in the Death of Christ]
God bears eternal wrath against people, which by definition means that his wrath against them has not been propitiated [appeased]
Answering Archimedes claims about Calvinism/atonement
Posted : 29 Aug, 2011 06:40 AM
James if you would put down all Calvinist teaching and throw away anything that eludes to reformed theology, clean out your house and everywhere you go of all reformation teachings and come to the word of God, and the holy spirit will help a heart that is hungry for the truth.
Answering Archimedes claims about Calvinism/atonement
Posted : 29 Aug, 2011 08:44 AM
And what does GOD say about atonement?...
NIV:Romans 5:6 You see, at just the right time, when we were still powerless, Christ died for the ungodly. 7 Very rarely will anyone die for a righteous person, though for a good person someone might possibly dare to die. 8 But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.
9 Since we have now been justified by his blood, how much more shall we be saved from God’s wrath through him! 10 For if, while we were God’s enemies, we were reconciled to him through the death of his Son, how much more, having been reconciled, shall we be saved through his life! 11 Not only is this so, but we also boast in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation (which only means atonement).
NKJV: Romans 5:6 For when we were still without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly. For scarcely for a righteous man will one die; yet perhaps for a good man someone would even dare to die. But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us.
9. Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from wrath through Him. For if when we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life. And not only that, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received the reconciliation
So, what does atonement mean?...
Definition of atonement:To cover,or cancel, satisfactory reparation for sin offense or injury; that which produces RECONCILIATION. In the Bible it means the covering of man's sins through shedding of blood, the blood of man's Redeemer, Jesus Christ who died on the cross.
Answering Archimedes claims about Calvinism/atonement
Posted : 29 Aug, 2011 02:41 PM
James, James, James�JAMES!
If a Blind man was Holding the Tail of an Elephant�he would Describe that Elephant as being �long and thin�. If he were Holding a Leg�the Description would be Different.
My Point is Obvious�What you �SEE� is Governed by your �Perspective�.
You are Blinded by the Fact that you believe in Predestination�that God �Causes� Everything to Occur. So�you Wrongly �Assume� that God is the One that Punishes people in Hell.
It is not God that Punishes people in Hell�but rather it is the dark one that takes Great Pleasure in Causing Pain and Anguish to those in Hell.
Also�it is through �Their Own (Free Will) CHOICE�that those people are in Hell�.
God Gave them Free Will in order to Choose Him FREELY in a MUTUAL Relationship. Christ Died for All of Mankind�s Sins. Once Man Decides (of his Own Free Will) to Believe and Obey�and if man
Works out his Salvation ��with fear and trembling,��
Philippians 2:12
New International Version (NIV)
12 Therefore, my dear friends, as you have always obeyed�not only in my presence, but now much more in my absence�continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling, (end Scripture quote)
Then man Will Receive his Inheritance which ��can never perish, spoil or fade.� And is ��kept in heaven for you,��
1 Peter 1:3-4
New International Version (NIV)
Praise to God for a Living Hope
3 Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! In his great mercy he has given us new birth into a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4 and into an inheritance that can never perish, spoil or fade. This inheritance is kept in heaven for you, (end Scripture quote)
If you would �Open your Eyes� and See�that it is your Free Will that is Keeping you from �Hearing� God�s Word Correctly�you will Understand.
You ask if �Unbelief� is a Sin and if so then Christ Died (Atoned) for this Sin and that therefore one cannot be Punished for Unbelief.
Again�because of your Incorrect Perspective you are saying
If Murder is a Crime Punishable by Death and if Christ paid �The Price� for this Crime�then there should be no Punishment (Death) for �Suicide�!
Do you Now Understand your Error?
Unbelief (Itself) �Brings Death�. The Very Fact that one does not �Believe and Obey� brings Death.
Romans 10:8-10
New International Version (NIV)
8 But what does it say? �The word is near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart,�[a] that is, the message concerning faith that we proclaim: 9 If you declare with your mouth, �Jesus is Lord,� and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved.
Romans 6:17
New International Version (NIV)
17 But thanks be to God that, though you used to be slaves to sin, you have come to obey from your heart the pattern of teaching that has now claimed your allegiance.
Answering Archimedes claims about Calvinism/atonement
Posted : 29 Aug, 2011 03:10 PM
James wrote - "When I look at ALL the Biblical Data, and especially the words of Jesus about WHO he died for I see the following: 1. Jesus died for ALL TYPES of people. Rich, poor, wicked sinners, average sinners, Samaritans, Greeks, Fishermen, mothers, soldiers, etc. 2. Jesus died for people FROM ALL OVER THE WORLD."
That's how you explain away Acts 10:34 about God being no respecter of persons, instead of admitting that when the Scriptures say Christ died for all, everyone, all men, etc. etc., it really means that He did die for all.
James wrote - "But the Arminians on this group demand that Jesus died for every single person who ever lived. It is a sentimental, promiscuous "love" that gets thrown around to everyone."
The Scriptures tell us that Jesus died for the sins of the whole world: And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for [the sins of] the whole world. - 1 John 2:2 Call it "sentimental, promiscuous love" if that's what makes you feel better when you accuse those who disagree with you, but it's a fact that Christ died for the sins of the whole world; it's in Scripture, and the only way to see it any other way is to explain it away.
James wrote - "Additional reasons that the atonement of Christ is not for all the sins of all people God punishes people in hell, which would be unjust if their sins were atoned for"
1 Timothy 4:10 - For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.
Christ is the Saviour of all men, especially of those that believe. Do you see one has a choice here? You can refuse the perfect sacrifice of Christ, the Saviour, or you can accept the perfect sacrifice of Christ, the Saviour. To refuse Him does not make Him less of a Saviour. You refuse Him as your Saviour and you are destined to an eternal life without Christ. To accept Him, is Salvation and eternal life.
Answering Archimedes claims about Calvinism/atonement
Posted : 29 Aug, 2011 05:29 PM
PhillipJohn said:
James if you would put down all Calvinist teaching and throw away anything that eludes to reformed theology, clean out your house and everywhere you go of all reformation teachings and come to the word of God, and the holy spirit will help a heart that is hungry for the truth.
James replies:
Wow that is nutty! What you mean is I should ignore all the Christians who lived before us, and ignore the 150 verses of Scripture that say that God is sovereign in salvation, fallen mankind is totally spiritually dead, and that when God saves a person, they are saved period and NOTHING can snatch them out of God's hand.
PhillipJohn you have NEVER dealt with any of the Scriptures I have posted, and I have ZERO respect for Charles finney, and very little respect for Pentecostal theology.
You WILLFUL ignorance of church history, and what the Early church believed, coupled with your one line negative comments with nothing to back them up make me think you have nothing to offer this discussion group. I think you are thickheaded and stubborn, and represent the worst traits of fundamentalists.
