Thread: Defending My Faith -- My Beliefs -- My Church
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Defending My Faith -- My Beliefs -- My Church
Posted : 30 Aug, 2011 11:02 PM
James, and all of my Brothers and Sisters did believe in Sola Scriptura.
Your �View� of Christianity is Totally Dependent on
Sola Scriptura.
You cannot Listen to any �Church Tradition� because it is Catholic (She was The Only Church for over 1500 Years).
If your Doctrine of Sola Scriptura is not True or even not Scriptural�then what you believe (that The Catholic Church does not Teach)�is False.
Show me Where in Scripture does it say��I (Scripture) is to be the Only Pillar and Foundation of The Truth�. That there is not to be any other Revelation from God to Man held as Sacred.
And�please�do not trot out 2 Timothy 3:16
2 Timothy 3:16
New International Version (NIV)
16 All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness,
This Simply says that �All Scripture is �USEFUL���
��Useful�� � not �the only Revelation to be used�.
1 Timothy 3:15
New International Version (NIV)
15 if I am delayed, you will know how people ought to conduct themselves in God�s household, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of the truth.
��the Pillar and Foundation of the TRUTH.�
I hope I do not need to �Interpret� this for you.
I know this piece of Scripture �sticks� in your craw (and of Many Christians) because you would never Submit to your church�s authority (because to you and Many Christians) due to the fact that it �Has No authority�.
The Only authority you �listen� to is�yourself! Sure�you do �Lip Service� to Scripture and God�s Word and all that hallelujah �stuff��but the Bottom Line is that if YOU don�t like it�if YOU don�t Understand it�then�by golly�I�ll find some Scripture (you don�t care how Obscure it is) and even if you do not find any Scripture�you will still reject it�
AND FIND OTHER CHRISTIANS THAT BELIEVE THE SAME WAY�
And start your own church.
The Early Christians
HEARD and BELIEVED! They did not hear and changed what they heard.
Well�I take that back�there were those that heard Jesus say that
�If you do not Eat of my Flesh�� and �Left HIM� (the Proto-Type of those the Rebelled later).
But my Point is that they Submitted Themselves to Christ and His Church!
The Church has Always been the Final Arbitrator of what is TRUTH and Morals.
Matthew 18:15-17
New International Version (NIV)
15 �If your brother or sister[a] sins,[b] go and point out their fault, just between the two of you. If they listen to you, you have won them over. 16 But if they will not listen, take one or two others along, so that �every matter may be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses.�[c] 17 If they still refuse to listen, tell it to the church; and if they refuse to listen even to the church, treat them as you would a pagan or a tax collector.
This is in Scripture�do you Deny its TRUTH?
Matthew 16:18-19
New International Version (NIV)
18 And I tell you that you are Peter,[a] and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades[b] will not overcome it. 19 I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be[c] bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be[d] loosed in heaven.�
There is a Lineage that can be Traced from Every Priest and Pope that Leads back to The Apostles and Christ. To Deny this is to Deny Reality and Truth.
Matthew 28:19
New International Version (NIV)
19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,
Christ Created a Teaching Church�a Teaching Church.
Holy Scripture needs a Teacher. Without someone to Teach what Scripture �Speaks� to�it is like a �horse without a rider�. No one here would attend a class in order to �Learn��that had No Teacher!
Christ Gave His Church�His Bride�Everything She needed to Know concerning His Commandments and Morals. Christ gave Her The Full Deposit of Faith�in Order for Her to be Able to TEACH.
Jesus also Gave Her The Holy Spirit to ENSURE that Man would not Corrupt those TRUTHS and COMMANDMENTS.
Christ PROMISED that She would Endure until The End of Time.
The Church is Run by Men, Many are Pious�Holy Men�yet some have satan whispering in their ears. She has made mistakes�some Horrendous�but The TRUTHS that Christ Gave Her...have been Vouchsafed and Held Incorruptible since Christ Gave them to Her.
As A Protestant (Protesting Catholicism) you can only believe in The Divine Revelation from God that was WRITTEN down! But�you must Realize that God also Revealed Himself ORALLY � when He Spoke to The Prophets and when He Spoke Through The Holy Spirit. Plus Scripture tells us of times when Christ Did things and Said things that were Not Recorded in Scripture.
Well�you say�if God wanted us to know something � God would have put it in Scripture. You say this because it is what you were taught. You make assumptions that God can only Reveal Himself to Man in only One Way. Do I have to pull up Scripture where a Prophet said
�So Spoke The Lord�
This is Oral Revelation. Are we to Deny this simply because we have to �Take a Man�s Word?� If The Church � upon Whom God Gave Full Authority to �Bind� or �Loosen� � Rabbinical �Talk� that means to Create Laws that we are Bound to or to Release us from such Laws � says that this Oral Revelation is TRUTH�then it is TRUTH.
By the way�this is the Same Authority that you Accepted when She DECIDED which Books or Letters would Go Into The New Testament! It would seem Hypocritical to say
�I accept your Authority on this Decision of Yours�
(because You LIKE IT), but not when you Do NOT LIKE IT.
There is also the Things Jesus said and Did that were not Recorded in Scripture. Are we to Discount them? There is not a whole lot of what happened during The Forty Days before Jesus Ascended in Scripture.
John 20:29-31
The Purpose of John�s Gospel
30 Jesus performed many other signs in the presence of his disciples, which are not recorded in this book. 31 But these are written that you may believe[a] that Jesus is the Messiah, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.
Scripture was Written to REVEAL GOD�CHRIST�to Mankind so that Man might Believe and Be Saved. And�Yes�it is USEFUL ��for Teaching, Rebuking, Correcting and Training in Righteousness,�� but the Key Word is USEFUL.
God did Not Intend for Scripture to be The Only Form of His Revelation.
John 21:25
New International Version (NIV)
25 Jesus did many other things as well. If every one of them were written down, I suppose that even the whole world would not have room for the books that would be written.
Are we to Discount these things that Christ Our Savior Did�simply Because we Refuse to Submit to The Church Christ Started?
John 16:12-13
New International Version (NIV)
12 �I have much more to say to you, more than you can now bear. 13 But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all the truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come.
What about what The Holy Spirit �Guided� The Apostles �Into� (TRUTH). Where has that TRUTH Gone?
My Brothers and Sisters�it is this Oral Revelation from God (Sacred Tradition) AND God�s Written Revelation (Scripture) that Compose The Full Deposit of Faith and it is The Magisterium (The Teaching Church) that Ensures that it is Taught Faithfully and Correctly.
Incidentally�when Christ Spoke of man�s tradition He was Speaking of those things that men make a tradition (small (t))�such as Birthday Cakes�Fourth of July � not what The Church holds Sacred (capital (T)�Oral Revelations.
The Church has a Tradition of �Handing Down� what was Taught to Disciples.
1 Corinthians 11:23
New International Version (NIV)
23 For I received from the Lord what I also passed on to you: The Lord Jesus, on the night he was betrayed, took bread,
1 Corinthians 15:3-4
New International Version (NIV)
3 For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance[a]: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4 that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures,
Christ�s Teachings were Passed on ORALLY � by Word of Mouth.
2 Timothy 2:2
New International Version (NIV)
2 And the things you have heard me say in the presence of many witnesses entrust to reliable people who will also be qualified to teach others.
��Qualified to Teach Others.�
2 Thessalonians 2:15
New International Version (NIV)
15 So then, brothers and sisters, stand firm and hold fast to the traditions we passed on to you, whether by word of mouth or by letter.
Paul in his Letter to Titus tells Titus to Appoint ��elders in every town, as I directed you�� and Paul then tells Titus what the Characteristics of the Church Leader should be and in Verse 9 Pauls says
��9 He must hold firmly to the trustworthy message as it has been taught, so that he can encourage others by sound doctrine and refute those who oppose it.�
THIS IS The Duty of The Church.
To �..encourage others by sound doctrine and refute those who oppose it.�
That is Why I am In The Church that I am In. Her Truths have Not Changed since The Beginning. She is The Only Church I have Known. I have not �bounced� from church to church�looking for what �feels� good to me�what I �want�.
I have seen churches Split because of an argument over the Color of the New Carpet � (truthfully�they were headed there anyway�they had two �preachers��one young and vibrant�the other was older and �old school�).
Sorry this has gone so long�but I felt it was Important.
Where you are and just �How� you Worship Christ is not what is going to �Doom� you. Your Personal Relationship with Christ is what Decides where you are heading. Are you �Following� His Wishes for you�what Christ Wants of you�what He Has Commanded�ALL OF US?
Archimedes, you might want to sit down and read "Foxes book of Martyrs". The Roman Catholic Church was responsible for the suppression of the Gospel for nearly 1500 years.
There are historically correct cases of men ie; Wycliffe, Martin Luther, and even Fox (the author of the aforementioned book) who stood up to the Bishops and the Pope after they had been accused of heresy to the Papal system for making the stories of Jesus of Nazareth available to the common man.
There are many people in the Church of Rome because they were born and babtized into it; and because their families are generations deep in the faith of that Church. And those same people DO love Christ I am sure of it. But that church as a system was declared numerous times by the martyrs of the gospel to be the seat of the Anti-Christ.
Another good book to look/read is Alexander Hislops "The 2 Babylons". It is very definitive of the history of the times before Christ and the development of the Church that you prefer currently.
I hope you will have the courage to at least look at those two sources.
There can be no Denying that many Heinous Crimes were Committed under the Guise of �Cleansing��on Both Sides. Those that were Considered Heretics�whether Convicted Justly or not�Died Horrible Deaths Burning at The Stake.
Most of The Martyrs that Died in The Early Church�did so at the Hands of Non-Christians. Foxe Records those and also those that Died at the Hands of The Catholic Church.
Foxe based his accounts of Martyrs during the Period of The Early Church on previous writers, including Eusebius, Bede, Matthew Paris, and many others�and his Accounts of these Early Events are as accurate as his sources.
The English Martyrs from the Period of the Lollards through the Persecution of Mary I�are Foxe�s Own Compliation. This Period of Christianity is Filled with Horrendous Displays of Man�s Inhumanity. Catholics Leaders did Commit Murder during this Period�but Protestants are not any "Less Guilty".
Any Reader of this Book must be Prepared to Accept Errors and Inconsistencies as to the Fact that Foxe did not Hold to a Position of Neutrality or even Objectivity�as is shown in his Commentaries in the Book -- such as
"Mark the apish pageants of these popelings" and "This answer smelleth of forging and crafty packing."
(J. F. Mozley's biography of Foxe p. 157)
As I�ve said before on this Forum�The Catholic Church�s Men are not Perfect�they have Committed Many Crimes throughout The History of The Church�but The Full Deposit of Faith�Given to Her By Christ Himself�has Remained INVIOLATE.
I wish I had the Time and Resources to Read many Protestant Books�but I don�t�so I have to Choose Judiciously those that I do Read�but�be Assured � I do Read Quite a few.
