The 144,000 are found in Revelation 7: 1-8 and Revelation 14: 1-5. And Daniel 11: 33 can be applied to the 144,000. The background of the discussion of the 144,000 on this thread, and for many such discussions,
is that the traditional amillennialist view of them by the Catholic Church and by many Calvinists is that they represent all the saved ones of all ages. I know that amillennialism refers to a rejection of the thousand year reign of Christ on earth following the end time tribulation. But a similar tendency to use brad sweeping allegorization leads the amillennialists to say the 144,000 are just all saved people from all times.
But the dispensationalist view, following their honoring of all Israel and their literalist system of interpretation is that they are all Jews.
On a Christian forum a member said of the 144,000 that: "Of course they
are Christians, but they are Israelites that converted
to Christianity."
Do you mean the 144,000 all belong to Messianic Judaism, who mix the
old and new covenants? Mixing the Old Covenant with the New Covenant
is of the spirit of anti-Christ, and is very possibly an important end
time apostasy.
In the New Testament, there is no longer a chosen people based on
race, that is, on physical descent from Abraham (Galatians 3: 16,
28-29). Entry into the kingdom of God is by faith alone. Those who
have the DNA of Abraham, or claim to have it, have no standing in the
New Covenant, unless they are born again (John 3: 1-6). "He taketh
away the first, that he may establish the second." Hebrews 10: 9
Revelation 7: 1-8 has to be interpreted by New Testament scripture,
not by a man made theology which starts from a position of honoring
all Israel, the saved Remnant and the unsaved majority. One very
relevant New Testament scripture is Romans 2: 28-29.
We don't know exactly where we are in the timeline leading to the
return of Christ, so we don't know exactly when the 144,000 will began
their ministry.
Christ says in Matthew 24: 21 that "...for there shall be then
tribulation great such as not has been from the beginning of the world
until now..." This is from the George Berry Interlinear, 1958
For the Westcott-Hort Greek text, which is the basis for almost all
recent translations, used more by the dispensationalists, but not by
all of them, there is also no article in front of the Greek word
thlipis, or tribulation.
There is no article in front of tribulation, no "THE great
tribulation." Scripture has no authority for "the great tribulation" the theology of dispensationalism implies will be recognizable by most when it begins - apparently with their one man super anti-Christ appearing and desecrating a re-built temple in Jerusalem. Since this may be part of their comic book fables, no such world leader super one man anti-Christ may be recognized and agreed upon by them and others, and so how are they, and others, to know when their seven year THE Tribulation begins?
There will be great tribulation during the last years
of this age before Christ returns. The dispensationalist seven year
tribulation is an inference from and interpretation of Daniel 9: 27.
We might have reason to believe that tribulation during the last
years and months of this age will get worse and worse.
So, we don't know exactly when the 144,000 will begin their work. But
there is now a Remnant who contend for the faith once delivered to the
saints.
When Christ was born as a man and began his ministry, he did not work
from within
the religious establishment of his time. The religious establishment
then were the Pharisees and the Sadducees. He said "...beware of the
leaven of the Pharisees and the Sadducees." (Matthew 16: 11).
Christ and his disciples operated out in the metaphoric wilderness and
often in the literal one, outside of organized society.
Just as the majority on the broad way went into apostasy not once but
several times during the Old Covenant, so the organization now
claiming to be the Body of Christ, different from Israel reborn in
Christ, has gone into apostasy, which is the falling away (II
Thessalonians 2: 3-4). Luke 13:21 says leaven was hid in three
measures of meal, until the whole was leavened. The whole what? The
institution claiming to be the Body of Christ, the "church" was said
to become leavened - over time.
Revelation 18: 4 is then applied to the leavened "church"and to its
condition after the falling away. "Come out of her, my people, that
ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her
plagues." "Her" refers back to Revelation 17: 1-11.
The 144,000 are not members of the "church." They have already come
out of "her," and are in the metaphoric wilderness (Revelation 12: 6,
14). Likewise, the Remnant of Israel (Isaiah 10: 21-22, Zephaniah 3:
12-13, Revelation 12: 17) during the last years of this age are not
part of the "church," but are out in the metaphoric wilderness, like
After this I beheld, and lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands; And cried with a loud voice, saying Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.
And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God. Saying, Amen: Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honour, and power, and might, be unto our God for ever and ever. Amen. And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes: and whence came they? And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest.
And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
"broad sweeping allegorization leads the amillennialists to say the 144,000 are just all saved people from all times."
James replies:
John's Revelation is the most highly symbolic book in the Bible. It should not a surprise that plenty of things in John's vision are symbolic.
ET said: "James is speaking in his carnal mind, and I think its time James consider and ponder over for himself, the passage he is always giving out to you and others...."
James replies:
So, you call me "carnal" because my interpretation of Revelation is different than yours?
And by the way, I have NEVER given out the verse that you quoted to anyone.
So, let me try and give some MORE reasons why I believe the 144,000 are all Christians, and that the number given is symbolic and not an actual group of 144,000 people.
1.In Chapter 7:4-8 the balanced numbering suggests that "twelve" is a symbolic number of the fullness of the people of God.
2. some people think that the 144,000 is only Jewish believers, but verse 3 (in Rev.7) says "the servants of our God" and that must include Gentile saints as well.
3. Although ET says I am 'carnal' for believing the actual number is one no one can count, if you read Rev. 7:9
It actually says, "A great multitude which no one could number." That "no one" includes John who was shown the vision.
James, its YOUR misunderstanding and incorrect inperpretation of what God is spekaing. Revelation 7:9 is speaking about a completely DIFFERENT GROUP OF PEOPLE from the 144,000. Verse 9 is speaking about the multitude of people from every nation of people the saved that will be gathered AFTER the tribulation to worship the Lord. IT IS NOT SPEAKING ABOUT THE 144,000...
REVEALTION 7:9 After these things I looked ( John is now speaking about AFTER seeing the 144,000 in verses 4-8, he see a multitude of people gathered), and behold, a great multitude which no one could number, of all nations, tribes, peoples, and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, with palm branches in their hands, and crying out with a loud voice, saying,
�Salvation belongs to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb!� All the angels stood around the throne and the elders and the four living creatures, and fell on their faces before the throne and worshiped God, saying: � Amen! Blessing and glory and wisdom, Thanksgiving and honor and power and might, Be to our God forever and ever. Amen.�
