Thread: The Danger of Teaching that Christ Died Only for the Elect
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The Danger of Teaching that Christ Died Only for the Elect
Posted : 7 Nov, 2011 03:05 PM
The Danger of Teaching that Christ Died Only for the Elect
This is commonly known as a belief in a "limited atonement" (some Reformed men prefer to call it "definite atonement"). It is the teaching that Christ died on the cross and paid the penalty only for the sins of the elect. He did not die for the ones who eventually will be in the lake of fire. Often it is worded as follows: "Christ died for all men WITHOUT DISTINCTION but He did not die for all men WITHOUT EXCEPTION." This is a subtle game of semantics which makes it possible for them to say that He died for all without really meaning that He died for all. What they really mean is that Christ died for all kinds of people and all classes of people, but He did not die for every single person. That is, He died for Jews and Gentiles, rich and poor, slave and free, male and female, etc., but it is understood that He died for only elect Jews and Gentiles, only elect rich and poor, etc.
Dr. Paul Reiter, has clearly and simply summarized the Scriptural teaching on this issue. FOR WHOM DID CHRIST DIE?
HE DIED . . .
1. For all (1 Tim. 2:6; Isa. 53:6).
2. For every man (Heb. 2:9).
3. For the world (John 3:16).
4. For the sins of the whole world (1 John 2:2).
5. For the ungodly (Rom. 5:6).
6. For false teachers (2 Peter 2:1).
7. For many (Matt. 20:28).
8. For Israel (John 11:50�51).
9. For the Church (Eph. 5:25).
10. For "me" (Gal. 2:20).
[From unpublished lecture notes written by Dr. Paul Reiter, former professor at Appalachian Bible College, Bradley, WV.]
It is evident that the extreme Calvinist must ignore the clear language and obvious sense of many passages and he must force the Scriptures and make them fit into his own theological mold. Limited atonement may seem logical and reasonable, but the real test is this: IS IT BIBLICAL? "What saith the Scriptures?" (Rom. 4:3). In childlike faith we must simply allow the Bible to say what it says.
Those who promote this erroneous doctrine try to tell us that "world" does not really mean "world" and "all" does not really mean "all" and "every man" does not really mean "every man" and "the whole world" does not really mean "the whole world." We are told that simple verses such as John 3:16 and Isaiah 53:6 must be understood not as a child would understand them but as a theologian would understand them. That is, we must reinterpret such verses in light of our system of theology.
The true doctrine of the atonement could be stated as follows:
The Scriptures teach that the sacrifice of the Lamb of God involved the sin of the world (John 1:29) and that the Savior�s work of redemption (1 Tim. 2:6; 2 Pet. 2:1), reconciliation (2 Cor. 5:19) and propitiation (1 John 2:2) was for all men (1 Tim. 4:10), but the cross�work of Christ is efficient, effectual and applicable only for those who believe (1 Tim. 4:10; John 3:16). We could even say it in a simpler way: "Christ�s death was SUFFICIENT FOR ALL but EFFICIENT only for those who believe." The cross�work of Christ is not limited, but the application of that cross�work through the work of the Holy Spirit is limited to believers only.
The extreme Calvinist would say that the cross was designed only for the elect and had no purpose for the "non�elect" (persistent unbelievers). But the death of God�s Son had a divine purpose and design for both groups. For the elect, God�s design was salvation according to His purpose and grace in Christ Jesus before the world began (2 Tim. 1:9; 2 Thess. 2:13). For unbelievers, God�s purpose and design is to render the unbeliever without excuse. Men are CONDEMNED because they have rejected the Person and WORK of Jesus Christ and refused God�s only remedy for sin (John 3:18; 5:40).
Unbelievers can never say that a provision for their salvation was not made and not offered. They can never stand before God and say, "The reason I am not saved is because Christ did not die for me." No, the reason they are not saved is because they rejected the One who died for them and who is the Savior of all men (1 Tim. 4:10). They are without excuse.
This issue is not merely academic. It is extremely practical. It affects the very heart of the gospel and its presentation. The gospel which Paul preached to the unsaved people of Corinth was this: "Christ died for our sins" (1 Cor. 15:3). Do we really have a gospel of good news for all men (compare Luke 2:10�11)? In preaching the gospel, what can we say to an unsaved person? Can we say, "My friend, the Lord Jesus Christ died for you. He paid the penalty for your sins. He died as your Substitute"?
One Reformed writer said this:
But counselors, as Christians, are obligated to present the claims of Christ. They must present the good news that Christ Jesus died on the cross in the place of His own, that He bore the guilt and suffered the penalty for their sins. He died that all whom the Father had given to Him might come unto Him and have life everlasting. As a reformed Christian, the writer believes that counselors must not tell any unsaved counselee that Christ died for him, FOR THEY CANNOT SAY THAT. No man knows except Christ Himself who are His elect for whom He died [emphasis mine]. [Jay Adams, Competent to Counsel, p. 70.}
As C.H.Mackintosh has said, "A disciple of the high school of doctrine [extreme Calvinist] will not hear of a world�wide gospel�of God�s love to the world�of glad tidings to every creature under heaven. He has only gotten a gospel for the elect."
How can we sincerely offer to men what has not been provided for them? How can we offer them a free gift if the gift has not been purchased for them? How can we urge them to drink from the fountain of life if no water has been provided for them? How can we tell them to be saved if the Lord Jesus Christ provided not for their salvation? How can we say to a person, �Take the medicine and be cured!� if there is no medicine to take and no cure provided? W. Lindsay Alexander explains: �On this supposition [that of a limited atonement] the general invitations and promises of the gospel are without an adequate basis, and seem like a mere mockery, an offer, in short, of what has not been provided.� [W. Lindsay Alexander, A System of Biblical Theology, 2nd volume, page 111]
If the Reformed preacher were really honest about it, he would need to preach his "gospel" along these lines:
"Perhaps Christ died for you."
"Maybe God so loved you."
"Christ shed His blood for you, perhaps."
"Salvation has been provided for you, maybe."
"Possibly God commendeth His love toward you."
"Hopefully He�s the propitiation for your sins."
"There is a possibility that Christ died as your Substitute."
"I bring you good news, maybe."
"It�s possible that Christ died for you. If you get saved then we know that He did die for you, but if you continue to reject Him then He did not die for you."
"Christ died for you only if you believe that Christ died for you (thus proving you are elect), but if you do not believe this and if you continue in your unbelief until the day you die, then Christ did not die for you."
Those who hold to a definite or limited atonement do not present the gospel in this way, but would not such a presentation be consistent with their theology? Would it not be a correct and cautious and sincere way of sharing with the unsaved? An extreme Calvinist must be very careful how he presents the cross-work of Christ to an unsaved person because he never really can be sure if Christ has made provision for that person. As Robert Lightner has said, "Belief in limited atonement means that the good news of God�s saving grace in Christ cannot be personalized. Those who hold to such a position cannot tell someone to whom they are witnessing that Christ died for him because that one may, in fact, not be one for whom Christ died." [This quote is from an article by Robert Lightner in the book, Walvoord: A Tribute, p. 166].
John Bunyan made this observation: "The offer of the Gospel cannot, with God�s allowance, be offered any further than the death of Christ did go; because if it be taken away, there is indeed no Gospel, nor grace to be extended" (Bunyan�s Works). In other words, how can you offer the gospel to a person if Christ did not die for that person? How can we offer the sinner what has not been provided? As Lightner has said, "No maxim appears more certain than that a salvation offered implies a salvation provided." [Robert Lightner, The Death Christ Died, p. 114]
Boettner says: "Universal redemption means universal salvation" (cited by Lightner, The Death Christ Died, p. 96). The extreme Calvinist argues that Christ must save everyone that He died for. They reason thus: "If Christ died for everyone, then everyone will be saved." Let�s think about the logic of this statement. This would be like saying, "If medicine is available for everyone, then everyone must be healed." This is obviously false. The medicine, though available, will not do any good unless it is taken. "There is more than enough cool, refreshing water for every thirsty person in the village." Does this mean that every person in the village will have his thirst quenched? Only if every person drinks! We need to make a difference between redemption accomplished and redemption applied.
The Danger of Teaching that Christ Died Only for the Elect
Posted : 7 Nov, 2011 06:13 PM
And one more thing..
Take notice everyone, how some of these so-called "Christians", are always quoting someone else. If they knew the Lord, their gospel would be fresh, powerful, and filled with knowledge and grace.
Why do these quoters of other men, quote other men?
Their faith is not real, it is Memorex!
These are merely actors, reading a script, the Word of God calls them "hypocrites", which means "actor".
The Danger of Teaching that Christ Died Only for the Elect
Posted : 7 Nov, 2011 07:11 PM
Mat 25:34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
2Th 2:13 But we are bound to give thanks always to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:
Titus 1:1-2 Paul, a bondservant of God and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God�s elect and the acknowledgment of the truth which accords with godliness, (2) in hope of eternal life which God, who cannot lie, promised before time began,
2Tim 1:9 Who hath saved us, and called [us] with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,
Revelation 13:7-8 It was granted to him to make war with the saints and to overcome them. And authority was given him over every tribe, tongue, and nation. (8) All who dwell on the earth will worship him, whose names have not been written in the Book of Life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
Rev 17:8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.
Deuteronomy 10:14-15 "Indeed heaven and the highest heavens belong to the LORD your God, also the earth with all that is in it. (15) "The LORD delighted only in your fathers, to love them; and He chose their descendants after them, you above all peoples, as it is this day.
YOU DIDN'T CHOOSE GOD, GOD CHOSE YOU -
Exodus 6:7 �I will take you as My people, and I will be your God. Then you shall know that I [am] the LORD your God who brings you out from under the burdens of the Egyptians.
Deut 7:6 For thou [art] an holy people unto the LORD thy God: the LORD thy God hath chosen thee to be a special people unto himself, above all people that [are] upon the face of the earth.
John 1:12-13 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the power to become children of God, to those who believe in His name: (13) who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
John 15:16 Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and [that] your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.
John 15:19 If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you.
John 17:1-2 Jesus spoke these words, lifted up His eyes to heaven, and said: "Father, the hour has come. Glorify Your Son, that Your Son also may glorify You, (2) "as You have given Him authority over all flesh, that He should give eternal life to as many as You have given Him.
John 6:65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.
Acts 13:48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.
Rom 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate [to be] conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
Romans 9:29 And as Isaiah said before: "Unless the LORD of Sabaoth had left us a seed, We would have become like Sodom, And we would have been made like Gomorrah."
{If God had not elected some to salvation, all would be lost; had God not chosen some, none would be saved.}
1Pet 2:9 But ye [are] a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:
Rom 9:21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
Pro 16:4 The LORD hath made all [things] for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.
Romans 9:11-13 (for the children not yet being born, nor having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works but of Him who calls), (12) it was said to her, "The older shall serve the younger." (13) As it is written, "Jacob I have loved, but Esau I have hated."
Romans 11:5-7 Even so then, at this present time there is a remnant according to the election of grace. (6) And if by grace, then it is no longer of works; otherwise grace is no longer grace. But if it is of works, it is no longer grace; otherwise work is no longer work. (7) What then? Israel has not obtained what it seeks; but the elect have obtained it, and the rest were blinded.
1 Kings 19:18 Yet I have reserved seven thousand in Israel, all whose knees have not bowed to Baal, and every mouth that has not kissed him."
Psa 33:12 Blessed [is] the nation whose God [is] the LORD; [and] the people [whom] he hath chosen for his own inheritance.
Psa 65:4 Blessed [is the man whom] thou choosest, and causest to approach [unto thee, that] he may dwell in thy courts: we shall be satisfied with the goodness of thy house, [even] of thy holy temple.
Psalms 106:4-5 Remember me, O LORD, with the favor You have toward Your people; Oh, visit me with Your salvation, (5) That I may see the benefit of Your chosen ones, That I may rejoice in the gladness of Your nation, That I may glory with Your inheritance.
Mat 11:27 All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and [he] to whomsoever the Son will reveal [him].
Mat 22:14 For many are called, but few [are] chosen.
Col 3:12 Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering;
1Th 5:9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,
Titus 1:1 Paul, a servant of God, and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God's elect, and the acknowledging of the truth which is after godliness;
1 Peter 1:1-2 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, To the pilgrims of the Dispersion in Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, (2) elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, in sanctification of the Spirit, for obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace to you and peace be multiplied.
Rev 17:14 These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him [are] called, and chosen, and faithful.
Rom 9:16 So then [it is] not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
Ephesians 1:11-12 In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will, (12) that we who first trusted in Christ should be to the praise of His glory.
2Tim 2:10 Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.
Eph 1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
1 Corinthians 1:27-29 But God has chosen the foolish things of the world to put to shame the wise, and God has chosen the weak things of the world to put to shame the things which are mighty; (28) and the base things of the world and the things which are despised God has chosen, and the things which are not, to bring to nothing the things that are, (29) that no flesh should glory in His presence.
Eph 1:11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:
Eph 2:5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)
Acts 15:14 Simeon hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name.
Acts 22:14 And he said, The God of our fathers hath chosen thee, that thou shouldest know his will, and see that Just One, and shouldest hear the voice of his mouth.
John 10:2-3 "But he who enters by the door is the shepherd of the sheep. (3) "To him the doorkeeper opens, and the sheep hear his voice; and he calls his own sheep by name and leads them out.
Romans 11:1-11 I say then, has God cast away His people? Certainly not! For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. (2) God has not cast away His people whom He foreknew. Or do you not know what the Scripture says of Elijah, how he pleads with God against Israel, saying, (3) "LORD, they have killed Your prophets and torn down Your altars, and I alone am left, and they seek my life"? (4) But what does the divine response say to him? "I have reserved for Myself seven thousand men who have not bowed the knee to Baal." (5) Even so then, at this present time there is a remnant according to the election of grace. (6) And if by grace, then it is no longer of works; otherwise grace is no longer grace. But if it is of works, it is no longer grace; otherwise work is no longer work.
(7) What then? Israel has not obtained what it seeks; but the elect have obtained it, and the rest were blinded. (8) Just as it is written: "God has given them a spirit of stupor, Eyes that they should not see And ears that they should not hear, To this very day." (9) And David says: "Let their table become a snare and a trap, A stumbling block and a recompense to them. (10) Let their eyes be darkened, so that they do not see, and bow down their back always."
(11) I say then, have they stumbled that they should fall? Certainly not! But through their fall, to provoke them to jealousy, salvation has come to the Gentiles.
The Danger of Teaching that Christ Died Only for the Elect
Posted : 7 Nov, 2011 07:17 PM
@ AWM
True and false wisdom
James 3:13-18
Who is a wise man and endued with knowledge amongst you? let him shew out of a good conversation his works with meekness of wisdom.
But ye have bitter envying and stife in your hearts, glory not, and lie not again the truth.
This wisdom descendeth not from above, but is earthly, sensual, devilish. For where envying and strife is, there is confusion and every evil work. But the wisdom that is from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, and easy to be intreated, full of mercy and good fruits, without partiality, and with hypocrisy. And the fruit of righteousness is sown in peace of them that make peace.
The Danger of Teaching that Christ Died Only for the Elect
Posted : 7 Nov, 2011 07:39 PM
@James, there is no doubt about Jesus calling out his elect and the elect being the ones who inherit the kingdom of God,
the question is how these people became the elect .
you have believed a lie even though its a small one, its the little foxes that spoil the vine.
The differnce is so small can you se how small it is?
We know that God knows every person who wil enter the kingdom
We all know that he knows who will make is and who will not,
we all agree that the spirit must draw, we all admit within our selfs we can not be saved
But the differnce is that Jesus knowing that some would reject the salvation he gave his life for , yet he died for even them he died for everyone that doesnt mean everyone will heed the call
now when the spirit calls and we heed the call submitting to him then repenting from our sins (asking forgivness and turning from them) that is when we become the elect that is when we become the chosen not until then, even though God knows what we will do, if we die in our unsaved state we go to hell period.. its crazyness The Devil is a liar and I am calling him one right here and now
The Danger of Teaching that Christ Died Only for the Elect
Posted : 7 Nov, 2011 07:45 PM
@AWM also your friend james loves to quote other people whats that mean?
and Ill tell you like I told him Knowlege does not = wisdom
I dont care how much you know or think you know .. you dont know one little bitty thing until the spirit of God reveals truth to you
You are very proud and set yourself up very high, high minded.. "since we you are such experts" do you think we dont understand your sarcasim? is that how the Holy Spirit speaks through you? the fear of God is the begining of wisdom, not all your knowlege,I have ernestly prayed to God to show me the truth and give me understanding and he has, I may not be as smart (like the world sees smart) as you and James but I am filled to the brim with the Holy Spirit of God
The Danger of Teaching that Christ Died Only for the Elect
Posted : 7 Nov, 2011 09:39 PM
71 said:
And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for [the sins of] the whole world. 1 John 2:2
Did you read that James? Christ is the propitiation not for our sins only [those who believe], but for the sins of the whole world. Not part of the whole world, but the WHOLE WORLD.
So, according to YOU, Jesus paid for the sins of EVERYONE WHO EVER LIVED.
That means that God would be unjust in sending ANYONE to Hell.
So you are a universalist?
I mean that IS what you just interpreted "the world" to mean.
Now, the correct interpretation is that Jesus did not just die for the sins of people who lived in the area of Jerusalem, but that people from ALL OVER THE WORLD who would come to believe in Him.
Your interpretation means that EVERYONE WHO EVER LIVED WILL BE SAVED. According to you Jesus was wrong about many people going to Hell.
So are you ready to change your view on this verse, or will you become a universalist?
The Danger of Teaching that Christ Died Only for the Elect
Posted : 7 Nov, 2011 09:50 PM
James Jesus died so that everyone could be saved not so that every one is saved you are twisting my words, I may not be as smart and as educated as you are but I am smart enough to recognize your high mindedness maybe you want to believe these lies so that you can live in will full sin and still be saved Idont know why, but dont pretend to know my heart because you do not, I dont need a lable you can keep your labels for you and your smart over educated high minded friends.. I am a Christian thats it and thats all Jesus Dies for me and he also died for my daughter and nothing you can say will change that yout theory is faulty and now you are lashing out trying to hurt me because of it, Jesus died so that the whole world through him could be saved not will be saved there is a CHOICE TO BE MADE BY EVERYONE , to be so smart you sure can be pretty dense
@PJ you are right I guess i ment it seemes small it looks small from a distance but when you dig into it its a HUGE LIE OF SATAN!!! Oneca again it is my opinion these people are decieved and not intentionaly spreading these lies.. James the devil is using you to decieve people but I am wasting my time telling you thing all I can do is pray for you to HUMBLE YOURSELF and for GOD TO SHOW YOU THE TRUTH
