All who are in Christ: Would the 1st century believers...
Posted : 3 Jan, 2012 11:14 PM
Identify with our modern "church" gathering service today? Seriously. Do you think that our modern gathering of ourselves is the same now as it was in the 1st century?
I know that this topic will be flooded with plenty on remarks from several self proclaimed spiritually adept believers who protest my intentions as I post this, but this is a serious question that we must all ask ourselves. Do we really know about the modern practices at the gathering of the saints?
Can we actually find any Scriptural support for the order of worship on Sunday mornings?
1. The Greetings. ( As you enter the building, an usher greets and gives you some literature. )
2. Prayer or Scripture Reading. (Usually given by pastor or leader in the church.)
3. The song service. (Given by an individual song leader or by a group. )
4. The announcements. (Up coming events. )
5. The Offering. (Usually accompanied with musical accompaniment. )
6. The Sermon.
7. The Benediction. (Ending prayer, blessing, or a song to end the service. )
Some minor variations may include alter calls, prayer and the Lord's Supper.
(If you're a church going Christian, it is likely that you observe the same perfunctory order of worship every time you go to church no matter what denomination you belong to.)
Is this the way that the 1st century church met and performed it, or is this a tradition that has been instituted by men? Can we really say that the structure of the practice is the same?
Can we honestly say that this is how God intended the gatherings to be today?
I will post a small a break down of where these traditions came about with enough information in each point that can be easily researched by the individual and then can be discussed further in this topic.
1. The Greetings: As you enter the building, an usher greets and gives you some literature. The "usher" originated from Queen Elizabeth's day (1533-1603 ). They were responsible for walking people to their reserved seats to ensure that the seat wasn't taken. ( It also has its ties in the 3rd century.) They were in charge of collecting the offering, keeping records of who took the communion, keeping order in the building, and providing general direction to the laity.
2. Prayer or Scripture Reading: Usually given by pastor or leader in the church. See 4.
3. The song service: Given by an individual song leader or by a group. It originated with Constantin. Choirs were developed and trained to celebrate the Eucharist. The custom was borrowed from Roman customs in imperial ceremonies with processional music. Its roots also tie into pagan Greek temples and Greek dramas. The Greeks trained choirs to accompany their pagan worship. In 367 ad, congregational singing and was banned and replaced by music by trained choirs.
4. The announcements or up coming events: This is something that came about during the reformation. John Calvin, John Knox, and Martin Bucer added to the liturgical practices around the mid 15th century.
5. The Offering (Usually accompanied with music.): This falls into tithing. Although it is in the Bible, it is not a Christian practice. Tithing was a requirement for the Jews in the Old Testament and done away with in the New Testament by Christ. Tithing was something that Cyprian of Carthage argued to financially support the clergy. It was later adapted by Constantine. Later (in the 7th and 8th century), it was adapted by the churches to pay land that was leased to people in Charlemagne's day in Western Europe. It was a required law of the land. The law faded in the 10th century, but the practice didn't. Don't get me wrong. Donating for the needs of the poor was always a voluntary thing, but it became a " moral, legal mandatory religious requirement" in later centuries.
6. The Sermon: I can go deeper in this discussion, but I'll point out that it has it's early ties in early Greco-Roman culture. Clement of Alexandria even stated that sermons did little to change Christians. It was popularized by sophists who were expert debaters, and used emotional appeals, physical appearances to "sell" their arguments. Pastor led churches is another lengthy discussion completely.
7. The Benediction. (Ending prayer, blessing, or a song to end the service.): This came about in the 17th century that was introduced by Methodists. They are responsible for the "emotional decision based" conversion. (Pentecostals adopted this brand of worship.) The Frontier-Revivalists charged up the person's soul and tried to elicit an emotional response to "God's salvation plan." The "alter call," later, and pragmatism (Lorenzo Dow and Charles Finney.) Was introduced. D. L. Moody was also heavily influenced by this and the "end times" teachings of the Plymouth Brethren. He was the first to ask those who wanted to be saved to be lead up from their seats and be led into the "sinner's prayer" and also gave us the "gospel song."
Now, given the fact that when Christ came, the Jewish hierarchy was done away with and we were all made priests through his blood being shed; how can we say that the modern structure of worship in Christianity is what God had intended when it seems that we have strayed so far from the original practice?
How can we explain the fact that before Constantin there was no need for a church building for Christians to thrive, grow, and flourish in Christ and it be the only source of spiritual growth today?
All who are in Christ: Would the 1st century believers...
Posted : 4 Jan, 2012 08:26 AM
Hello Sal:
Thanks for this post,i have shared here before how YHWH did not leave Worthshipping Him,up to the dictates of men.
He knows that men will lead the believers back under the Levitical priesthood,with the ONE man leading and controling the people.
Having the modern day Levites leading / controlling the people to worshipping YHWH,instead of being LED of the Holy Spirit according to the Word of YHWH.
1st Corinthians 14:26-33
The 'church' and the ASSEMBLY / BODY of Yeshua,are two different entities.
One is orchestrated of men.
The other is being built by Yeshua
Matthew 16:18
(KJV) And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
(KJV+) AndG1161 I say alsoG2504 G3004 unto thee,G4671 ThatG3754 thouG4771 artG1488 Peter,G4074 andG2532 uponG1909 thisG5026 rockG4073 I will buildG3618 myG3450 church;G1577 andG2532 the gatesG4439 of hellG86 shall notG3756 prevail againstG2729 it.G846
(LITV) And I also say to you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build My assembly, and the gates of Hades will not prevail against her.
(YLT) `And I also say to thee, that thou art a rock, and upon this rock I will build my assembly, and gates of Hades shall not prevail against it;
If the people had been taught and instructed within the Word of YHWH concerning this matter,Maybe these places might actually close..
But then is this not about controlling the people.
All who are in Christ: Would the 1st century believers...
Posted : 4 Jan, 2012 08:28 AM
Our Lord says to be careful only about One thing our relationship to Him. But our common sense says, that is absured. I must consider how I am going to live, what is going to happen in the world. Jesus says you must not worry. Beware of allowing yourself to thin that He says this while not understanding cirucmstances with You and in the World. Jesus Christ Knows All better than we do, and He says we must not think about these things to the point where they become the Primary Concern of our life. Have Faith in God and His Word.
All who are in Christ: Would the 1st century believers...
Posted : 4 Jan, 2012 11:29 AM
To angel:
Farmer:
angel;my response to your posted reply to the topic.
All who are in Christ: Would the 1st century believers...
Hey angel:
If the meeting of the Saints is of no importance,then why are there almost 4 chapters of the Word of YHWH concerning this.
1st Corinthians chapters 11-14:1-33
When you gather / Assemble with other beleievers,do you
actually believe that YHWH would leave you and others to just meet with Him any way you would choose.
Do you not believe that He has laid out the way He wants believers to meet with Him,and to worship Him publicly..
Did YHWH not give to Israel the way He wanted to be worshipped.
And is not Israel to be an example to us today.
Shalom
The Farmer
Shalom
Angels response:
Angelforlove
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All who are in Christ: Would the 1st century believers...
Posted : 4 Jan, 2012 10:00 AM
@POC
We are Not to Worry over things of the World.
Focus on Jesus Christ.
Let "HOLY SPIRIT" let him lead You.
Stop asking me things kind of Questions, you are
too Carnal minded.
Farmer
angel, let me get this straight;
To be talking about the Word of YHWH concerning His stated way in which He wants to be Worthshipped;
You actually believe that this is being carnal !!
I would ask this question of you.
Based upon your last statement to me,are you sure that you are of the 'ELECT-CHOSEN-ELECT-REDEEMED,of YHWH in Yeshua.
For the Holy Spirit would NEVER call speaking about the Word and Worthship of YHWH as being carnal..
I actual wonder IF those of you which say that you are FILLED with the Holy SPirit,are even aware of how very little if any the Holy Spirit has actually shown Himself through yourselves on this site.
Your answers and judgements against others is definitely not of the Holy Spirit.
If i were you i would look more closely at what i have been believing.
All who are in Christ: Would the 1st century believers...
Posted : 4 Jan, 2012 12:03 PM
For the Holy Spirit would NEVER call speaking about the Word and Worthship of YHWH as being carnal..
Correct George speaking of the word is not carnal, it is men given to the worship of their mindn and flesh that brings forth carnality, subject to their free will
I actual wonder IF those of you which say that you are FILLED with the Holy SPirit,are even aware of how very little if any the Holy Spirit has actually shown Himself through yourselves on this site.
George the word of God says we are filled with the Holy Spirit.
Now you say what the word declares concerning the Gift of the Holy Spirit is not true, go figure, you are right and the word is wrong.
All who are in Christ: Would the 1st century believers...
Posted : 4 Jan, 2012 12:24 PM
Peej declares:
Farmer
I wonder IF those of you which say that you are FILLED with the Holy SPirit,are even aware of how very little if any the Holy Spirit has actually shown Himself through yourselves on this site.
Phil
George the word of God says we are filled with the Holy Spirit.
Farmer
PJ,your ACTIONS and your Judgments against others speak a different language other than Love.
All who are in Christ: Would the 1st century believers...
Posted : 4 Jan, 2012 01:07 PM
george, i think maybe (or maybe not) what my sister was trying to say is , that it is kind of legalistic to try to figure out exactly how the first century church worsheped , I think the biggest change from old testement to new, is God requires a change of heart wich will be reflected in an outward change, so the exact way everything goes down in an assembly isnt what matters, what matters is spirit and truth! If we are sincere and we are taching and preaching truth thats what matters, but if you are teaching and preaching a gospel that makes your flesh feel good, like you can be a christian and go sin all you want to cause Jesus died so you can have a free pass to sin, well thats not worshiping in spirit and TRUTH thats a lie! But the specifics about who speakis or eating is all legalisitc, if you asemble and your heart is right and you are going to worship and not just to make a show or let weveryone se how pretty you are or see who has on the most expensiv shoes, then your ok! (thats if your not going for that reason) so many peole go to church to socialize or to keep up aperances! Thats bad but those with a pure heart who go cause they love the l;ord I dont believ he cares how you do it, if you eat dance or whatvere
All who are in Christ: Would the 1st century believers...
Posted : 4 Jan, 2012 01:38 PM
Shared ~ How can we explain the fact that before Constantin there was no need for a church building for Christians to thrive, grow, and flourish in Christ and it be the only source of spiritual growth today?
*** Solomons Temple (Hebrew/Israel) was Built for Worship of GOD...its a Building is it not ???...Its Older than Constantin...jus sayin...Be Blessed...xo
