What is the Hebrew writer speaking about here in this passages? Is he speaking about obeying and sub,itting to spiritual leaders OR obeying and submitting to government leaders?... OR BOTH?...
Hebrews chapter 13, Obey your leaders and submit to their authority. They keep watch over you as men who must give an account. Obey them so that their work will be a joy, not a burden, for that would be of no advantage to you. (NIV)
Agapeton, sorry, but you HAVE NOT ANSWERED THE QUESTION... disputing this passage is not an answer. You always diagree with what is written, and can never explain what God is speaking through His writers of His Word.
SO, what is the author saying in this passage?...
I did not ask for YOUR OPINION OF WHAT YOU THINK HE IS SAYING, therefore, if you HAVE ANY spiritual revelation or insight from the Holy Spirit to do so, please address and EXPLAIN what I have posed here in this question, AS TO WHAT THE AUTHOR OF THIS LETTER IS SPEAKING ABOUT AND THE MEANING OF THIS PASSAGE. Thank you.
What is the Hebrew writer speaking about here in this passages? Is he speaking about obeying and sub,itting to spiritual leaders OR obeying and submitting to government leaders?... OR BOTH?...
Hebrews chapter 13, Obey your leaders and submit to their authority. They keep watch over you as men who must give an account. Obey them so that their work will be a joy, not a burden, for that would be of no advantage to you. (NIV)
Your defense is always you can't find a scripture that says such and such, YET YOU YOURSELF CAN'T PRODUCE ANY SCRIOTURES THAT DOES NOT SAY OTHER WISE, NOR CAN YOU EFFECTIVELY EXPLAIN WHAT THE PASAGE OR ANY PASSAGE SPIRITAULLY OUTSIDE OF SAYING ITS NTO WAHT IT MEANS...
ME: The Passage says to follow the authoritative governors appointed to rule over you, sister, because it separated the ones who were to be remembered and imitated. So by that example of verse 7 then we are all to imitate leaders and BE LEADERS.
Now do you want Verses to prove my summation about verse 13 being about following governors over man? Cause there is ample Scripture to support this. Romans 13, and Peter saying love the brethren and obey the king....
Now, Considering you other post... THANKS! I WAS going to do it there but now i can post my questions in this one and link both topics together.
Agapeton, that passage says no such thing!:nahnah::zzzz:..
Hebrews 13:7 since when has the gobernment spoken the "word of god over the christians? Where in the owrld do you get your stuff from?
Hebrews 13:7 says, Remember your leaders, who spoke the word of God to you. Consider the outcome of their way of life and imitate their faith.
Who are those leaders in the govrnment who spoke the word of God unto faith to Christian believers? none!
This passages is speaking about the spiritual leaders who are in authority over the church, and how we as Christians are to follow thier leadership of those who are in Chirst in obedience by fiath.
Then the writer goes on to explain the importance of obeying spiritual leaders God has placed over them/us and that his position is equla to that of Jesus Christ, but Jesus is the only one who is in total leadership over us all: 8 Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever. Do not be carried away by all kinds of strange teachings. It is good for our hearts to be strengthened by grace, not by eating ceremonial foods, which is of no benefit to those who do so. We have an altar from which those who minister at the tabernacle have no right to eat.
11 The high priest carries the blood of animals into the Most Holy Place as a sin offering, but the bodies are burned outside the camp. And so Jesus also suffered outside the city gate to make the people holy through his own blood. Let us, then, go to him outside the camp, bearing the disgrace he bore.For here we do not have an enduring city, but we are looking for the city that is to come.
15 Through Jesus, therefore, let us continually offer to God a sacrifice of praise�the fruit of lips that openly profess his name. And do not forget to do good and to share with others, for with such sacrifices God is pleased.
The author then comes back to remind the believers that the spiruital leaders are sat over the church by God, and how Christians are to behave toward them with respect who have authority over them given to them by GOd Verse 17, Have confidence in your leaders and submit to their authority, because they keep watch over you as those who must give an account. Do this so that their work will be a joy, not a burden, for that would be of no benefit to you.
Your post said: "until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God and become mature, attaining to the whole measure of the fullness of Christ. Then we will no longer be infants, tossed back and forth by the waves, and blown here and there by every wind of teaching and by the cunning and craftiness of people in their deceitful scheming."
QUESTION: How do we know that these leaders are doing such things exactly? (Answer: Because BY THE BIBLE BEING FULLY WRITTEN AND FREELY ACCESSIBLE TO THE BELIEVER WE NOW KNOW "the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God and become mature, attaining to the whole measure of the fullness of Christ.")
THAT IS THE ESSENCE OF WHAT PAUL WAS WRITING THERE! GOD HAD GIFTED ALL THOSE PEOPLE IN THOSE TIMES AND HAVE IT RECORDED IN SCRIPTURE SO THAT WE CAN ALL LEARN FROM THE BIBLE. How do we know this? Because " ALL SCRIPTURE is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, that the man of God may be competent, equipped for every good work"! 2 Tim. 3:16-17
He says: "But does Christ rule by majority vote? Is His will determined by popular consent? Or is it given once and for all in Holy Scripture to be faithfully ministered to His people by spiritual leaders within the church? These questions state the issue clearly."
QUESTION: What is the authority? Man or the Scriptures? Who is more adapted to show the truth and by whom? One PRIVATE INTERPRETATION?
Now, look at the message this guy is saying.
"The Evidence - The New Testament is clear in its teaching both by precept and example that there are certain men in the church who are invested with the responsibility of ruling. Christians are not blindly to accept false or unscriptural leadership,BUT THEY ARE NONETHELESS responsible to follow, obey, and honor their spiritual leaders."
So WHO IS TO BLAME IF THERE IS SOME BAD DOCTRINE OR FALSE TEACHING?
Good to know....
HE FURTHER SAYS: "This authority was first vested in Christ's apostles. They were the foundation of the church (Ephesians 2:20; cf. Matthew 16:18-19)
ME: Let's look at the text shall we?
Eph 2:20 built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus himself being the cornerstone,
Mat 16:18 And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
Mat 16:19 I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven."
SO this guy is saying that the APOSTLES WERE THE FOUNDATION OF THE CHURCH AND NOT THE LORD JESUS CHRIST AS THE CORNER STONE?
WOW!
This guy Catholic?
Oh wait! He's Baptist.
Right?
Hold on a second!
SINCE WHEN ARE DENOMINATIONS ACCURATE SINCE THERE ARE SEVERAL DIFFERENT THEOLOGICAL SCHOOLS NOW THAT SPIT OUT PASTORS FASTER THAN.....
I don't know how fast....
but IT'S FAST!!!! lol
He goes on to say: " and the very mouthpieces of God (Ephesians 3:5)."
That's right! He does say that. God gave them the Words , gifts and deeds for us to learn from. How do we know this?
BECAUSE IT'S IN THE VERY EARLIER VERSE!
Eph 3:4 When YOU READ THIS, YOU CAN PERCEIVE my insight into the mystery of Christ,
Eph 3:5 which was not made known to the sons of men in other generations as it has now been revealed to his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit.
Their word and example were and are binding (I Corinthians 4:17; 14:37; I Thessalonians 2:13; II Thessalonians 2:15).
1Co 4:17 That is why I sent you Timothy, my beloved and faithful child in the Lord, to remind you of my ways in Christ, as I teach them everywhere in every church.
WHY did he do that? Well, "1Co 4:16 I urge you, then, be imitators of me."
That pretty much should do the same thing with EVERY VERSE POSTED TO PROVE HIS STANCE SO FAR..
Their word settled all disputes in matters of faith and practice.
Actually, it wasn't their word, it was GOD'S WORD that settled disputes....
They were Divine Legates, vicars of Christ, if you will.
VICARS OF CHRIST? HOLY COW!! THAT IS WHAT THE CATHOLICS SAY TOO!
This is seen in Acts 6:1-7, when the apostles took charge to settle the first dispute in the church at Jerusalem, and throughout the epistles in their binding and authoritative commands to the churches.
Ironically, when they decided to do this one who served tables (diakonos, deacon comes from this) ENDED UP DOING MORE THAN THEY DID AT THAT TIME.
That the apostles intended for others after them to have authority (albeit, not their unique apostolic authority)....
UM, this guy a protestant or is he preaching anything but SOLA SCRIPTURA?
He says: Acts 20:28 designates the elders of the church at Ephesus as "overseers," those who manage the church.
Overseers isn't a leadership role. it is just that, one who sees and tries to fill the needs of others. a servant....
So, is this guy so far? Or shall i go on? Because i can...
But I'll stop here and let you chew on this for a while, sister.
Plus i have to go get my son. :)
By the way, In cases like this you shouldn't accept everything you read because someone has credentials in the faith. they can still be wrong. Pay attention to the messege AND RESEARCH IT.
11 The high priest carries the blood of animals into the Most Holy Place as a sin offering, but the bodies are burned outside the camp. And so Jesus also suffered outside the city gate to make the people holy through his own blood. Let us, then, go to him outside the camp, bearing the disgrace he bore.For here we do not have an enduring city, but we are looking for the city that is to come.
15 Through Jesus, therefore, let us continually offer to God a sacrifice of praise�the fruit of lips that openly profess his name. And do not forget to do good and to share with others, for with such sacrifices God is pleased.
The author then comes back to remind the believers that the spiruital leaders are sat over the church by God, and how Christians are to behave toward them with respect who have authority over them given to them by GOd Verse 17, Have confidence in your leaders and submit to their authority, because they keep watch over you as those who must give an account. Do this so that their work will be a joy, not a burden, for that would be of no benefit to you.
High priests are gone. We have a High priest. We don't need another.
By the way, pay attention to the article you made and HE doesn't even use the verse you posted as an example: "Hebrews 13:7, 17, and 24 all speak of rulers in the church who are to be "regarded with favor,""
When we do something out of a sense of dty, it is easy to explain the reasons for our actions to others. but when we do something out of Obedience to God, there can be no other explanation just Obedience.
Unfortunately some Christians are disObedient of the Word.
Agapeton, you have no idea as to what in the misssst you're talkig about... God is the one who said the foundation of the church is built upon the apostles and the prophets, with Jesus as the cornerstone.
First you must understand what it mean that the aposles and the prophets are the foundation of the church.
and you must also understand and know what it mean when it says Jesus is the chief cornerstone... without clear understanding of these spiritual concepts and principles you don't have a clue...
This is what you should go in research of... the meaning of the apostles and prohets as being the foundation of the church, and what it mean that Jesus is the cornerstone...
:zzzz:,,,walking away shaking my head, that in all your so-called biblical knowledge and learning as you claim to have, you don't understand what all this means:rolleyes:
But my job and duty as a Christian believer and teacher of God's word is to help you, and I believe God is going to set you free from your foolishness and illuminate your whole being into a clear knowledge and understanding of His Word and His Son, and who He is in His Word. Amen!:yay:
I been rhaving a word on the tip of my tounge for at least a week now but I couldnt think of it, but after eading this thread it came to me SMUG!!! sorry,
Sister Ella I love you so much you are a wise wise lady , the truth alwasy rings true to those who love the truth!
When something has to be twisted and turned to make sence in the context you are wanting to put it, then itsnot truth!
that is just a general statement!
and God does not love disordwer, if there were no leaders how can there be order?
Agapeton, you have no idea as to what in the misssst you're talkig about... God is the one who said the foundation of the church is built upon the apostles and the prophets, with Jesus as the cornerstone.
First you must understand what it mean that the aposles and the prophets are the foundation of the church.
and you must also understand and know what it mean when it says Jesus is the chief cornerstone... without clear understanding of these spiritual concepts and principles you don't have a clue...
ME: Paul said; 1Co 3:10 According to the grace of God given to me, like a skilled master builder I laid a foundation, and someone else is building upon it. Let each one take care how he builds upon it.
1Co 3:11 For no one can lay a foundation other than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
...This is what you should go in research of... the meaning of the apostles and prohets as being the foundation of the church, and what it mean that Jesus is the cornerstone...
ME: Jesus is the foundation of the church, sister. Jesus is the AUTHOR AND FINISHER OF OUR FAITH. What other foundation can be laid other than that one? That is what is meant When Jesus said "and on this rock Ill build my church" in Mat. 16. To say something other than that is as Catholic as the guy you got this article from. The whole "pastors are priests of God" ideology is Catholic in origin and slowly crept into the Protestant one without any questioning of the Scriptures.
I think you need to stop agreeing with everyone who is credentially accredited in Christ because it goes against the very grain of the God we follow. Christ took away the priesthood from a select few and gave it to ALL BELIEVERS. If He didn't then YOU wouldn't have a Bible now. You'd have to go to some man to "reveal" the will of God to you, if you didn't read your Bible.
Well, at least, I HOPE that you don't. Because if YOU STILL GO TO A MAN TO TEACH YOU, then you deny the Word when it says that the Holy Spirit is your teacher. 1 Jn. 2:27
,,,walking away shaking my head, that in all your so-called biblical knowledge and learning as you claim to have, you don't understand what all this means
ME: Honey, lets look at the whole context of this epistle, ok? You, as a seasoned follower of Christ should already know that one verse does not a doctrine make (or so I hope, especially after reading this article you posted about a believer STILL BEING SUBJECT TO FOLLOW A PASTOR WHO TEACHES FALSELY [ ""The Evidence - The New Testament is clear in its teaching both by precept and example that there are certain men in the church who are invested with the responsibility of ruling. Christians are not blindly to accept false or unscriptural leadership,BUT THEY ARE NONETHELESS responsible to follow, obey, and honor their spiritual leaders."]. I really really hope that he isn't your pastor for Pete's sake. ), so lets ask ourselves WHY the letter of the Hebrews was written. Shall we? This letter was written to the JEWISH BELIEVERS IN CHRIST that had LEFT the ASSEMBLY of the believers in Christ because of the persecution from the Romans due to the Fire in Rome and the realization that Christianity WAS NOT A LEGAL RELIGION. These Jewish believers REVERTED TO Judaism or pretended to do so so that they would be PROTECTED UNDER THE JEWISH SYNAGOGUES AND THE JEWISH RELIGION BECAUSE ROME RECOGNIZED THIS RELIGION TO BE A LEGAL ONE.
Now, if the author was using Hebrew 13;17 as the current RULERS of the Jews that the epistle was written to, THEN THOSE RULERS WOULD BE THE JEWISH SYNAGOGUE RULERS, THE PHARISEE. These same people or rulers were also charged by Jesus that they would give an account to God in Matthew 12. Why ELSE WOULD Paul group TWO DIFFERENT PEOPLES when he said to greet ALL the Leaders AND ALL the saints, IF ALL THE LEADERS WERE ALSO SANCTIFIED JUST AS THE REST OF THE PEOPLE TO WHOM THE LETTER WAS ADDRESSED TO in Heb. 13:24?
Any guesses? This is something that a theologically trained pastor should be teaching you, by the way. Oh, wait! Pastors and teachers are different according to Ephesians 4:11. Maybe you would have known that if your church had teachers in it. :ROFL: :ROFL:
...But my job and duty as a Christian believer and teacher of God's word is to help you, and I believe God is going to set you free from your foolishness and illuminate your whole being into a clear knowledge and understanding of His Word and His Son, and who He is in His Word. Amen!
ME: Honey, you do know that by calling yourself a teacher of God's word you are calling yourself a pastor-teacher. Right?
And you and i BOTH KNOW THAT there is no such thing in Scripture as a pastor-teacher (since they are grouped in TWO SEPARATE CATEGORIES. One is either a teacher or a pastor in Ephesians 4:11) and a woman teacher.
I love you, and still have incredible hopes for you in my prayers for you, sister. :hearts: :hearts: :hearts:
