What's Wrong with Prospering? The Gospel according to Joel Osteen
As the offering is about to be taken at the Compaq center, Joel Osteen's wife and co-pastor Victoria urges generosity as a way of prompting God's favor. "He not only wants to enrich you but do things for you you know nothing about," she said. "Let him breathe the breath of life into your finances and he'll give it back to you bigger than you could ever give it to him," she said. To which the congregation, said, "Amen," and the buckets went around. This paraphrased excerpt is but a part of a new article in today's NY Times about the ministry and enormous success of Joel Osteen, and in particular his recent book 'Your Best Life Now'. The whole article is worth reading. Here is the link.----http://www.nytimes.com/2006/03/30/books/30oste.html?pagewanted=2&_r=1&th&emc=th
With 20,000 peeople regularly showing up at his church in the Compaq center in Houston and bringing in revenues of millions on his bestseller book, it is not a surprise that many will wonder and ask--- well what is wrong with a message that speaks about kindness, and generosity and success and prosperity? What could be wrong with this? What's wrong with a message that hardly ever mentions Jesus by name, or sin, or suffering, or self-sacrifice? Of course this message of prosperity is not new in America, nor new to American Churches.
There used to be a TV preacher from New York called Reverend Ike. One of his core messages was on the supposed Scriptural topic--- "The lack of money is the root of all evil". He kept saying things like, if you have trouble handling money, send it to me. Osteen is far more slick than this, and in fact far more accountable. His ministry maintains public records and provides financial reports, and in fact he has not taken a salary since his book went mega-platinum. He has also reportedly signed an enormous contract for his second book with Simon and Schuster. He is then not a shister or a crook it would appear. His example seemsfar more beguiling than the obvious huckster. Wherein lies the problem then?
The problem is several fold, and it involves a fundamental replacement of what the Bible actually has to say about wealth, with what our culture says about wealth and prosperity. And of course when you preach a message that is heard as saying "God wants you rich" or is heard as saying "if you give generously to God (i.e. our ministry) he will repay you many times over"), then of course the implication is that the Gospel message is really all about us, and ways to get God to fulfill not merely our needs and desires but even our conspicuously consumptive dreams. But is God really a nurturer of a vision of life that says its all about me and my material success?
How very different indeed this message is from John Wesley's Famous Sermon "On the Use of Money" in which he stresses that if you make all you can honestly and save all you can, but do not give all you can to relieve poverty, feed the hungry, make well the sick you may be a living person but you are a dead Christian. Wesley like the Bible warns of the enormous dangers of wealth, especially if it is used to provide one's self with an opulent lifestyle while others have nothing to survive on. As Wesley suggests my luxuries should always come after someone else's necessities, or I am living a selfish and self-centered life style. Wesley preached that Christians at the beginning of the industrial revolution should de-enculturate themselves, live simply, and have as their goal, giving so much to others during their lives that when they die they will have successfully given it all away. This sounds far less narcissitic and self-centered than the message of Osteen. And it comes from a different vision of God. God is not viewed as the grand sugar Daddy in the sky who exists to meet our every desire, and in particular our desire to live well, or even opulently. But forget the warnings of great church leaders of the past--- what does the Bible say about such things?
First of all, I would stress that there are more warning about wealth in the New Testament, than about any other ethical subject with the possible exception of sexual and relational issues. And right off the bat this ought to seem odd to us, since only a small percentage of first century Christians had any prospect of getting wealthy. Why such a stress on a message that is the polar opposite to Osteen's message in the NT when the audience was much poorer on the whole? It is a question worth asking. It has to do with fallen human nature and its desire to secure its own life on its own. But let's start with some texts we will not likely be hearing preached from Osteen's pulpit. Let's start with Jesus.
The Sermon on the Mount would be Jesus' version of "Your Best Life Now". In it he says "Do not store up for yourselvss trasures on earth where moth and rust consume and where thieves break in and steal; but store up for yourselves treasures in heaven where neither moth nor rust consumes and where thieves do not break in and steal. For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also." Mt. 6. 19-20.
This saying of course comes before the "do not worry about what you will eat, drink, or wear, because God will provide" message in 6.25-33. This text warns strongly against the accumulation of wealth, and in particular having and keeping for yourself more than you need. Jesus' real concern is found at the end of vs. 21 in the saying about treasure. Human beings are acquistive by nature-- consider how many Americans are addicted to shopping. Consider how our culture encourages us to think luxuries and necessities to the point that we can't tell the difference between the two.
If you want to know where a person's heart really is--- follow the money. This could be said of all of us. And what happens to already self-centered acquistive persons when they are encouraged to be even more that way is that they commit idolatry. Their real center of existence is not God. They only relate to God for what they can get out of God. Their real center of existence is their own prosperity and life style--- "God bless my standard of living". we should have seen Osteen coming when the "Prayer of Jabez" became a run away best-seller and an excuse for continuing to think that God wants us all to be rich, even if it destroys our soul.
Notice as well that Jesus says quite clearly three things at the end of Mt. 6: 1) we should seek first God's kingdom and his righteousness, and the necessities of life will be added to us. Jesus does not say anything about wealth will be added to us. He says the necessities will be taken care of if we are God-focused and seeking his righteousness, not our profit. And while we are at it it is well to remember that when Jesus says "ask anything in my name..." this means "ask anything that is in accord with my will, in accord with all my other teaching about the dangers of money and wealth, the sorts of things I would ask for". If you are praying prayers Jesus would not endorse, selfish and self-centered prayers, prayers about purely material success then you had best not sign Jesus' name to them, nor should you expect him to answer yes to them. 2) Jesus' teaching consistently tries to get us to focus on God and others, not our own desires or needs.
This is not in fact the character of Osteen's preaching unfortunately. He is doing his best to make us feel comfortable and happy if we are wealthy, and to simply see it as a blessing from God. But even if on occasion God does bless someone with abundant material resources, the next question should be stewardship. The next question should be how should I use these resources so that God is glorified and others are helped. It should not lead to a "God bless my standard of living" and we give ourselves permission to live high off the hog. There should always be the thught that God has blessed you to be an abundant blessing to others, and I don't just mean one's own family.
Mt. 6. 24--- "You cannot serve two masters. You cannot serve God and wealth." The issue is what is your object of ultimate concern? Where is your heart and treasure? When you take a human being who is acquisitive to begin with, and then take away all warnings about the dangers of wealth leading to idolatry, you are in trouble.
Someone should make a huge banner with this verse on it and hang it in front of the Compaq Center for all those entering to see. We could also hang up the Lukan beatitude "Blesssed are the poor" (Lk. 6.20). How about the parable of the rich man and Lazarus (Lk. 16.19-31) which suggests that those who prosper in this life and do not help others will find the reverse is their condition in the life to come. So much for the slogan "he who dies with the most toys wins". We could also focus on Jesus' teaching about the fool who stockpiled his assests and of whom God required his life before he could get the full benefit from them. Have you notice that there is no theology of retirement, or pension accounts in the New Testament, no blessing of those who store things away just for themselves?
Jesus' brother James is equally insistent about the dangers of wealth. Read James 2.1-7 where we hear among other things "God chose the poor of the world to be rich in faith and to be heirs of the kingdom." He warns not to cozy up to the wealthy or give them preferential treatment not least because "Is it not the rich who oppress you?" You would have thought that after the Enron scandal the good Christian people of Houston would have become a little more wary of courting the rich and of lusting after the lifestyles of the rich.
Listen to what else James says "You covet something and cannot obtain it: so you engage in disputes and conflicts...You ask and do not receive because you ask wrongly, in order to spend what you get on your pleasures. Adulterers! Do you not know that friendship with the world is enmity with God." (James 4.2-6).
Paul in 1 Tim. 6.6-10 puts it this way "There is great gain in godliness combined with contentment; for we brought nothing into this world, and we shall take nothing out of it; but if we have food and clothing we will be content with these. But those who want to be rich fall into temptation and are trapped by many senseless and harmful desires that plunge people into ruin and destruction. For the love of money is a rot of all kinds of evil, and in their eagerness to be rich some have wandered away from the faith and pierced themselves with many pains." There could hardly be a much sterner warning against believing in the health and wealth Gospel than this one.
We need to stop listening to the siren song of our culture about the goodness of personal wealth and material prosperity. We need to advocate a theology of stewardship which puts other people's necessities before our luxuries. We need to simplify our lifestyles and get a clear grasp on God's prioirties including God's especial concern for the poor and destitute of the world. We need to realize that what Jesus promised us if we seek the kingdom is not prosperity,but rather 'just enough' to take care of our basic needs. We need to remember that the Lord's prayer teaches us to pray for daily bread, not for resources today that I could not possibly use in 10,000 lifetimes. We need to heed all the warnings about how wealth can destroy the soul of an inherently self centered and acquistive creature-- namely any human being. We need to renounce the false gospel of wealth and health--- it is a disease of our American culture, it is not a solution or answer to life's problems.
Sometime ago when Donald Trump was riding high, he was interviewed on the subject of "how much is enough?" This was after he had assets totaling in the millions. His answer was very revealing--- "a little bit more." This is the truth about human nature, and what Paul says about that nature is that it needs to be crucified, not indulged, it needs to die not be pampered. The goal is this "I have been crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I wholive, but it is Christ who lives in me. And the life I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God who loved mne and gave himsellf for me." (Gal. 2.19-20). The model for the Christian life is not Donald Trump, it is that man who made the ultimate self-sacrifice, the man who lived simply, fed the hungry, hung out with the poor, and renounced conspicuous consumption--- Jesus himself.
Sing it Elisha, but your preaching to the wrong choir. You will never get these followers of Olsteen to listen to you Elisha. It's all about the money. The love of money is the root of evil, just look at Olsteen. Any true believer can see his lies.
"The Good News is God saves the ungodly.
The bad news is we do not tend to think of ourselves as ungodly"!
Without the assistance of the Holy Spirit quickening the gift of Faith given to us, how would we ever know just how utterly ungodly we are?
*** Not a DANG thing "wrong" with it...Prosperity is throughout the intire Bible...God Blesses and God Punishes...God giveth...and God taketh away...And Jesus is our Prosperity that is a no brainer...:dunce:...
Whats "wrong"...is people always Arguing about it...the ones that Aint got none are Coveting and Argure against those that have it...and the ones that have it...Covet and Argue about those that don't...Which is worse ???...BOTH !!!...Its all "Sin" in the eyes of the LORD...
Instead of Tearing down a Church or a Person yall believe to be Bad...Bad...Bad...get off yer A$$'s an Start showing this world what Real Prosperity is since Yall be thinkin Yall got it Figerd out and Know better than God does...Geeezzzz...some peoples children jus wanna whine...whine...whine...Instead a SHINE...SHINE...SHINE...for the Glory of the LORD Christ Jesus...and I aint takin bout $$$$...Be Blessed Yall...xo
Jude: Whats "wrong"...is people always Arguing about it...the ones that Aint got none are Coveting and Argure against those that have it...and the ones that have it...Covet and Argue about those that don't...Which is worse ???...BOTH !!!...Its all "Sin" in the eyes of the LORD...
Instead of Tearing down a Church or a Person yall believe to be Bad...Bad...Bad...get off yer A$$'s an Start showing this world what Real Prosperity is since Yall be thinkin Yall got it Figerd out and Know better than God does...Geeezzzz...some peoples children jus wanna whine...whine...whine...Instead a SHINE...SHINE...SHINE...for the Glory of the LORD Christ Jesus...and I aint takin bout $$$$...Be Blessed Yall...xo
Ella::ROFL::ROFL::applause::applause::excited:.. you are so right Jude, and the whinning always comes from the jealous and envious in heart, judgung and whinning and condmening those who are atleast doing soemthing with what God has blessed them with... and again as you say it ain't abut money, if you claim you are so spieirutally wealthy, what in the name of the Lotd are you doing in your community with your spiritual wealth to help others.
Thsi is why the have not's have nothing, because they are not doing NOT ONE THING WITH THE LITTLE THEY DO HAVE AND GOD CAN'T TRUST THEM WITH ANY MORE THAN WHAT THEY DO HAVE!... and what they THINK THEY do have and because they are doing NOTHING, God will takes that away... and that's BIble!
Have's and the Have Not's, and its always the Have Not's complaining.. Go write a book and make some spiritual tapes about the goodness of God as you know HIm to be to you, and maybe God will bless them with the rewards of their labor.
Yes, complaining, whinning, jealousy and envy are worse than having riches or having wealth from your hard work of writing books and speaking engagements or whatever creative project or business that brings wealth, because God said whinning)complaining) judging and condemn are SINS ... God has never said wealth is a sin, nor is money, He says the LOVE AND DEEP DESIRES TO GAIN RICHES AND MONEY, OR A PERSON'S INTEREST ONLY IN MONEY TO THE POINT OF FORGETTING HIM IS SIN.
Jude, Jesus says, Well done, good and faithufl servant! you have been faithful over the little things, I will make you ruler over many things...enter in and enjoy the joy of the Lord.!:glow::yay:
Proverbs 30:7 Two things I request of You (Deprive me not before I die): Remove falsehood and lies far from me;
Give me neither poverty nor riches�Feed me with the food allotted to me; Lest I be full and deny You, And say, �Who is the Lord?�Or lest I be poor and steal, And profane the name of my God.
I dont covet one thing I am richly blessed and happy with what i have!
How dare any of you impy that I would covet or whine, I work hard I dont do without one little thing, the lord provides for me and for the record I have said a hundred times that I believe in prosperity in a biblical way nd Jesus is our prosperity I have said that!
MY PROBLEM AND OBSSESION WITH IT ELLA STEMS FROM ONE LITLE GIRL I GREW UP WITH,
whos mother was robbed blind by a prosperity wolf names markus bishop I have said this before and if any of you think these preachers care about anything but you signing your house ovcer to their church your crazy!
I have seen it up close and personal if you dont know who markus bishop is he liven n panama city for a long time probably still does he is yoked up with crflo dollar and keneth copeland!
my problem with prospeirty preachers comes from the preachersa brain washing people into giving them everything they have with the promist that they wil gert it all back 100 times that !
these promises are not what the word says! and not how the Lord works,
Yes he will bless a cheerful giver and meet their NEEDS
but 250,000 dolar cars and so on is excessive and thats gross when there are people litarly living in the streets!
christian people in missions living on a cot and eating in a soup kitchen! I dont covet not by a long shot in fact I wouldnt be able to sleep at night if I had a 250,000 or even 100 or 50,000 dollar car in my garage and knew others werent eating a meal or were sleeping in a box! The truth is I am content living week to week and relying on the Lord to meet each need that builds my faith!
The shildren were fed manna from heaven on a daily basis and if your following the cloud by day and the fire by night you have no reason to be storing up anything !
The whole give the rich preacher your money and you will be rich too is my problem ella!
I have routinly said I believe whole heartedly in prosperity if it goes along with the qword of God, but saving up so much wealth and having 10,000 sq ft houses is contrary to what the word of Go says
the word says where your treasure is you heart will be, set your treasure in heaven!
Thats what it says! If you have treasures on earth then thats what you will love! Thats my problem
a little girl who had to live in a 1 room apartment and couldnt even afford a christmas tree because her mother signed her monthly checks over to MARKUS BISHOP and there HOUSE and it ruined her whole life
so anything that sounds like what he is saying I am going to speak out against it!
Furthermore PJ, NO I am not trying to stir up strife
YOU WOUILD THINK SO!!
WHat I am doing is exposing myself to risicule knowing I am going to get my feelings hurt and everytime praying that this will be the time that you will be humble enough to allow the Lord to break in on you and show you the truth about wht you are preaching!
Some of its ok PJ I am not sayiong prospering is wrong, I am saying GREED IS WRONG and GREED HAS EEN MASCARADING AS PROSPERITY!!
GREED GREED GREED!!
Greed is giving everything you have unwisly to a church and a preacher you dont know with the sole intentions of getting rich!
I really cant care less what you think of me, amy of you!
I see though how you will all turn and say hateful things when someone doesnt agree with you!
My reasoning for saying the things I have said were always enlightenment
but acusing me of envying yall or loel osteen is over the line!
I am very hurt by the comments Jude made and I am quite sure they were directed at me, as I have said numerous times how poor I am, what I havent said is mty family (who arent saved) are loaded extreml wealthy and I am the only child of an only child I stand to get it all including probaly 2.5 million in realestate alone! I have pland for only one peice of that property though and its to turn it into a christian home for addicted women the rest I couldnt care less about unless I can somehow help the poor!
or the lost!
I am shocked that yall would laugh at such comments acusing me of coveting is a big deal
I have no problem with the wealthy My biggst problem is with rich preachers FLEESING POOR CONGRIGATIONS JUST TO FURHTER THEIR OWN KINGDOMS
but whatever yall will think what you want to think I dont care, I know these men are evil and I have seen it UP CLOSE AND PERSONALY
I dont care one thing about stiring up strife, the only strife I have stired up is against me
I have evryone who always supported me on here now suddenly against me, and all because I speak out against greed!
BTW whoever posted the little nice thingy joel ossteen wrote, let me teel you he is a people pleaser thats part of his MO he also says that mormans are chgristians too, even though they say Jesus was born in Jerusalum and they got their book from an angel, and the bible speaks specificaly about gospels that come from angels!
Do you know why he says mormans are christians too? Because he dont want to offend nobody, he wants th mormans money just like he wanta yours!
I will say he is one of the better of the bunch, but here is what he is doing , he is selling books, he tells people how to get rich by giving to the church by saying its giving to God and God will bless you for it, and thren he wrights these things down in a book and GREEDY PEOPLE WHO WANT TO GET RICH BUY THEM and thats how joel osteen gets rich
Its vry smar actuly , he is way smarter than creflo dollar, because he is very transparent, its obvious he is using the money the church gives him and its obvios greed, but joel see he has made a big deal out of not taking a pay check so that is suposed to speak for his integrity but its a really sneakiy move, the fact that hge doesnt take a sallary makes people trust him, therfor they will buy his books wich makes him way way more than a sallary ever could!
But if you all dont want to se it, then you never will yall have made your opinions already
just know that you will answer for falsly acusing me, I have never given anyone a reason to acuse me of coveting anything nore have i whined rather i have tried to convince and enlighten!
what part of I have seen with my vry own eyes up close and personal what these prosperity preachers do to families dont yall understand!
Forgive me that it upsets me, that janie grew up in poverty because of markus bishop I blame him directly and because she grew up in such poverty she was about a million times more likely to be a drug addict and she is a full blown crack head!
yeah they are doing loads of good for people
thay arent doing squat for the poor except making more poor people!
and as for the question you asken me weeks ago ella how do I know the ones giving to these preachers are por. WELL THATS GHOW I KNOW JANIES MAMMA GAVE HER HOUSE AWAY TO HIM AND HER MONTHLY ALLOTMENT SIGNED OVER TO THEM!! AND THEY WAS DIRT POOR ON FOOD STAMPS THEN
Thsi is why the have not's have nothing, because they are not doing NOT ONE THING WITH THE LITTLE THEY DO HAVE AND GOD CAN'T TRUST THEM WITH ANY MORE THAN WHAT THEY DO HAVE!... and what they THINK THEY do have and because they are doing NOTHING, God will takes that away... and that's BIble!
This kind ofstatement is whats wrong with it!
So if someone is poor as far as money goes, then they are lead to believe they are doing someting wrong!
Thats not the Bible Jesus said he didnt even have anywhee to lay his head, and he God said "this is my beloved son in whom I am well pleased"
The first churches were not wealthy they did the best they could having services where they could, in peoples houses and so forth!
Trying to insinuate that someone is doing something wrong if they are not gaining wealth is a slippery slope and on of the things I take isue with!
And We are to be content with whatevr God blesses us with!
And I am, I also have nevr said its evilto be wealthy or to prosper I have said My own daddy had nothing when he became a christian howvever now he is very properous , but He lived a frugal lifesyl obedient to God and gave to the church not expecting anything back!
To him (and me) Jesus paid it all and if I give its becasue if that not because I want more calvary was enough if he nevr gives me anything lese
but I guess yall all got old timers and cant rememebr when i spolke about the mustang and How God blessed me by having my 4X4 fixed up (which I love my tuck I dont want nothing else)
and how I have said I never had anything really inmy life thatwas mine but now I own my owm house with no payments and 3 cars with no payments well my daughters 06 bug and my ple truck and anpohter car thats mine too THAT HAS NO PAYMENTS!!
I OWE NOBODY ANYTHING THAT IS PROsPERITY
what I am speaking out aginst is GREED MASCARADING AS BIBLICAL PROSPERITY!!
God nows He can trust me, I give to those in need and not just the ones inmy church like some do I give money to the ungosdly the unsaved (long as i dont think they will buy drugs drink or smokes with it as I dont want to give them money to hurt themselfs with)
and in fact i just gave a friend some advice yesterday about loaning money to friends and family, what I said was "i never loan money to anyone that I cant afford to just give to them and I will never ask for repayment of a loan"
And thats true, one girl in particualr I wqork with asks me for loans repeadtely and I have loaned her money a few times and she has given it back a few times reently she has not offerds to give it back nor have I mentioned it, however its ok and i dont have ill feelings towards her because I loaneded to her with thge intention of nevr asking for it back, didnt Jesus say, even evil people loan knowing they would get it back?
God has blessed me and he continues to, in fact I think I rememerb saying to you all that iloan to thosee who make 3 times what I make and I have money when they dont (someone specific I am speaking of)
I have not a problem with biblical prosperity
I will say this one last time and aybe yall are actuly reaing it
MY problem comes when preachers are telling people to give SO THEY CAN RECIEVE THAT IS GIVING OUT OF GREED NOT LOVE!!!
we are to give expecting nothing extra in return, thats not to say ther Lord wont give us extra if he does them we are to give of that as well not hoard it up and save it up, it wll rot like the manna that fell from heaven and Goid pomises to meet our needs
I NEVER SAID THER WAS ANYTHING WRONG WITH HAVING MONEY!!! MY PONIT IS AND ALWAYS has been that when greed is the motivation for giving then its evil
Proverbs 30:7 Two things I request of You (Deprive me not before I die): Remove falsehood and lies far from me;
Give me neither poverty nor riches�Feed me with the food allotted to me; Lest I be full and deny You, And say, �Who is the Lord?�Or lest I be poor and steal, And profane the name of my God.
YES YES YES!!!! thats it, the Lord will provide what we need but not excessivly I dont know why its so hard for me to make anyone understand what I am saying I am getting extremly frustrated, I haver not onr time said its evil to be rich or that god wont bless us and cause us to prosper, not once on the contrary I hgave said thr opposit
its the word of faith thats motivated by greed that I have such a problem with
Joel osteen, well its my opinion from what I have heard and read and seen, and by heard I mean heard what he has said, and read both his wrightings (a few) and articles such as this one
but I will just admit I could be wrong about him I dont trust him and I think he is one of them
but marlkus bishoo creflo dollat and kenneth copeland and that word of faith bunch I KNOW WHAT THEY ARE ALL ABOUT FOR SURE
I cant say that about Joel osteen so I will apoiligize if its wrong
BUT I want to say one last thing and point out thehipocracy again
some are quick to say the word judge and Pj is quick to play the dont speak about a man of God card, and somebody esle said something like
"I am thankful or anyone who preaches just a little bit of the gospel of Jesus Christ"
But thats not what yall was saying when the discussion was always John Calvin
I still dont agree with those doctrines but I agree more with that than I do markus bishop and the name it and clainm it group! THEY ARE BOTH WRONG but when someone speaks out about John Calvin iys ok but dont speak out against creflo dollar he is a man of God??? REALLY??? noone sees hipocracy in that?
am I the only one that sees how thats wrong
PJ even said that is everything I said was true I was wrong for saying it
but whn I postd an article months ago about john calvin and how he had a man beheaded then I was being patted on the back not being called judgementel or wicked for pointing out sin then now was I ??
You all need to put somethings into prespective, either its one way or its not
either its wicked to point out sin or it isnt
The rukes dont change because the doctrine is different or your syntamint towards them!
Yall dont like jonhn calvin so I can say anything about him nbut sopeak out about kenneth copeland or joel osteen and I am making myself judge?
How dare I speak Truth ??? ~ "Whats "wrong"...is [[[ people ]]] always Arguing about it...the ones that Aint got none are Coveting and Argure against those that have it...and the ones that have it...Covet and Argue about those that don't...Which is worse ???...BOTH !!!...Its all "Sin" in the eyes of the LORD"...
*** Did I mention a persons name here ?...NO!!!...Ifin this Truth I have shared has upset you personally thats betwix you and LORD...xo
