PRedestianting those that He forknew is not the same as just choosing and maing it happen
Posted : 1 Mar, 2012 08:15 PM
I am sick to death of arguing about predestination!
scripture plainly states who was predestinanted, the ones who were predestinanted are the ones God forknew, forknew what? well He forknew that they would believe and accept Jesus Christ as Lord, so that is exactly opposit of what calcinist say, they say God just randomly picked people for no apparnet reason and gave them faith , let me quote an article that holdingoutforhope posted earlier
so that he chooses precisely him whom he foreknew would believe in him; and to him he gives the Holy Spirit, so that by doing good works he will as well attain eternal life.
Now thats from an article that is suposed to be arguing against armainiens
let me clear the air, armainiens or let me say I am well aware I didnt save myself, I am sick of the smugg comments that imply we think we save ourselfs, we know jesus did the work at the cross and his blood is what saves us through faith
as a matter of fact we know that we dont choose God we know that we dont choose to get saved, we know that God puts a call on you and draws you to him before you can ever even begin to think of becoming saved, we know that within our own hearts we would never choose God, this is a fact and we are aware!
The only thing that we differ on is the fact that we can chose to reject the call of God, thats it thats the one thing and I reject the notion that God doesnt do anything according to what men do!thats ludacris
in the book of jonah God caled Jonah to go to nineveh, but jonah didnt want to we all kow the story about jonah and the fish!
But think about this in the end Jonah did go to nineveh to preach what the Lord told hin topreach, it doesnt ever say exactly what the lord said to preach but what it does say is that Jonah told the people of nineveh that in fourty days they would be over thrown!
But the people of nineveh repented and God spared them, based on Jonahs reluctant and late obedience God spared 100,000 people and many cattle!
Now God told Jonah obviously that nineveh would be overthrown he told jonah to tell them that they would be over thrown
If God did not intend to destroy or have the city overthrown allow it to e overthrown or whatever then that would make God a liar and we know he is not a liar!
In the end of the story its obvious that God repented from bring punishment on nineveh as a result of jonah preaching to them and their repentence,
Isnt that an example of God planing on destroy someone who isnt saved and wont repent and then that person hearing the word and we know faith comes buy hearing , and then they repented and God also repented from his wrath?
I mean does that sound like the calvinist god that just decides how things are going to be and makes them that way? I dont thnk so God gave nineveh a choice and he also gave jonah a choice, granted jonah had some strong encouragment, but while in the fishes belly he repented as well and agreed to be obedient
so faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word!
If nineveh had not repented if they had cntined in their wickedness then they would have been destroyed!
IF
IF
IF
But God had mercy on them, it was his intention to destroy them
IF!
I already know that there are a million expalnations for the example I have found that supports my point of veiw and I dont really care I am not trying to argue as some others are and like some others think I am!
HEre is what I know, I know beyond a shadow of a doubt that I had a choice when I got saved, I most certainly could have chosen to continue to rebel and turn my back. I had been doign it for years !
I also know that God choosing those that he forknew would come to repentence is not predestination as the calivinists state it, predestination is based onGod forknowing what we will do.
If never not one time sayd God predestinanted those hat he just decided he wanted to save
It says he predestianted those that he forknew (would come to repentence) thats all ther is to it, so quote that scripture all you want to read it over and over you are only making my case for me!
Go knows who will and who wont choose him, that makes much more sence that he just decides who will and wont choose him
furthermore and I have said this before
Gods soverignty afords him the right and the power to give us a choice, His soverginty does not put him inside of a box where he cant make the rules as he wants to,God sets the rules and he wants us to want to choose him!
Saying we cant choose hi becasue it takes his soverignty is small minded and that satement in itself takes away Gods soverginty!
HE can set the rules as he wishes and its his wish that we choose him, or shall I say that we have a choice, he actuly does the choosing he calls us but we certainlky have an opportunity to reject the calling!
If we didnt have that choice to actuly reject or heed Gods call onour hearts then whats the point in any of it? Why ouldnt He just take those he chose right on up to heaven and forget all this life, isnt that the goal? If he is just choosing people randomly or not randomly but just choosing on a whim at his disgretion then whats the point in this life?
Isnt it at least possible that God has set the rules up in such a way that he calls onour heart an woos us showing us that he is good but we still have the ultimate choice toreject him if we so decide to?
I am goingt o say this again I t really ticks me off when they say we think we save ourself, that is a gross misstatement! No one thinks they save their self all we kow is if we wanted to continue inouir rebelion God would not stop us, and he would until a point contine to deal with us until he either turns us over to a reprebate mind, we die, or we finaly give in and repent and take up our cross and follow him!
Please I dont want to argue I am so sick of arguing!
This is the only thing that makes sence I dont even think its all armainien I think armaniens and calvinists are both wrong, I think the truth is in the middle somewhere but neither side will admit that the otherone has any truth to it at al and thats pride I admit calvinism has some truth to it, but its no all truth someolf it is garbage, and the same with armainins so e truth some garbage! I am not too proud to admit when I am wrong or admit I stil have things to learn but I do not want to argue and I do not ever respond well to someone aproaching with wioth a i am right and you are wrong atitude!
again I am awasre without the ativity of the holy spirit in my life I could never be saved, I admit God has to call someone OI admit that Jesus died for the ones God knew would get saved! But God did not just choose wil nilly whom he would saved he predestinated those he forknew thats it , those that he forknew those are the ones Jesus died for , all that measn is God knew who would and wouldnt accept and those are theones Jesus died for, but each and every person that would have chosen Jesus could have been in that catagory its a matter of God nowing they wouldnt
If they werent going to choose christ its not even worth discussing its a mute point becaus the bllod cant be for someone who wont ever have faith but if they had of had faith then the blood would have been for them, if they didnt choose to heed the call that is their fault not Gods choice!
PS we sin becasue we are born sinners not the opposit of being sinners becasue we sin,
we are all born with the exact same condition and the exact same opportunity , the reason we are predestianted is that God knew what we would do in advance becasue well duh he is God and he knows the begining from the end it doesnt mena he drwew a name out of a hat!
So now that I have repeated myself about 5 times I will end this ranting
Stil dont want to argue with anyone I amsick of arguing its getting old to the point of I amabout to bow out of the forums
PRedestianting those that He forknew is not the same as just choosing and maing it happen
Posted : 1 Mar, 2012 08:56 PM
I dont give a hill of beans what your intention was that quote was from an article you posted I copied and poasted it , so now what?
just like evrything else yall like to make up the rules as you go
I am so out of time for this stupid argument, it doesnt matter God didnt just say enie meenie minei moe He knew whowould and would not reject him that is a fact jack and thats what the scripture means, if you think it doeans mena that then you are diluted
furthermore you have completly ignored what I said about jonah just like a slide of hand magician becaseu if you can take the focus of what you cant explain and put it onto something else then nobody will see the groos error inyour doctrine and the fact that you really ant explainit all
ther is no way you can say God just chose people to destroy and people to save when it comes to salvation but when it comes to nineveh he was going to destroy them but becasue they repented he had mercey on them! NOPE dog wont hunt so sorry
PRedestianting those that He forknew is not the same as just choosing and maing it happen
Posted : 1 Mar, 2012 08:59 PM
I am tired thats not what I meant
what I meant to say is so you are saying God was only awquanted with those that were elect and not those that were not the elect?
becasue that is in complete opposition to Gods soverignty
God knew every single soul did and does, I went on to explain what i meant but you took my misake intyping and rtan with it of corse, but I explained what i meant so why didnt you address that?
PRedestianting those that He forknew is not the same as just choosing and maing it happen
Posted : 1 Mar, 2012 09:05 PM
"I dont give a hill of beans what your intention was that quote was from an article you posted I copied and poasted it , so now what?"
Wait so you lied in attributing a quote to me, then you respond by saying you don't even care what the intent of the quote was? This is very dishonest of you. I simply asked for you to back you statement up with the link.
"just like evrything else yall like to make up the rules as you go"
I thought honesty as a rule was given. I didn't change the rule.
"I am so out of time for this stupid argument, it doesnt matter God didnt just say enie meenie minei moe He knew whowould and would not reject him that is a fact jack and thats what the scripture means, if you think it doeans mena that then you are diluted"
Basically you argue from the emotional side and not what the word says. You don't want to believe in a God who would choose his elect so you don't believe in a God who would. It matters not what scripture says, only what you desire God to be.
"furthermore you have completly ignored what I said about jonah just like a slide of hand magician becaseu if you can take the focus of what you cant explain and put it onto something else then nobody will see the groos error inyour doctrine and the fact that you really ant explainit all"
You're right. I ignored the issue of Jonah so I could point out your twisting of the text on foreknowledge and to show how basic grammar doesn't allow for your interpretation. You assume I have no answer for Jonah. You've assumed a lot of things. Maybe it's time you let the word speak instead of adding to it.
"ther is no way you can say God just chose people to destroy and people to save when it comes to salvation but when it comes to nineveh he was going to destroy them but becasue they repented he had mercey on them! NOPE dog wont hunt so sorry "
Think about this for a second...God is going to destroy everyone who doesn't repent...There is no contradiction here. Speaking of Jonah, Jonah 2:9 says Salvation is of the Lord :)
PRedestianting those that He forknew is not the same as just choosing and maing it happen
Posted : 1 Mar, 2012 09:08 PM
for what doing exactly? Does scripture say that God did my repenting for me? does it say god had my godly sorow?.
Where exactly does godly sorrow come in , in the calvinixt veiw, I mean if you cant relaly repent and you cant choose the right, then why the godklt sorrow, why is ther 2 different kinds of sorow, (i am asuming you know enough of scripture to be familure with the 2 types of sorrow) whats the point in prayer if ther is nothing we can do and God cant be swayed becasue he has already decided everything from the foundations of the earth, then why does anyone pray for the souls of the lost, am I crazy or are we to be praying for the lost and preahing to the lost
why on earth would God waste my time preaching to the lost and praying for the lost if they have no chance unless they ae elcet and if they are elect it doesnt matte becasue they are going tocome around no matter what becasue God decided it form the begining He doesnt need help with that right? Why wouldnt I be spenign my time doing fund raisres for cancer pacitenst and volontering with the elderly instead of preaching to and praying for the lost if God has all of that worked out without me?
Yet it was Him who told us to do it, and dear heart God do do things that are a waste of time and energy
hey what about the scripture that says Gods wod never comes back void?
doesnt that bloiw hole in your whle doctrine. imean if Goids word is acidentlky preached to no lelect and ther can be no life in one who is non elect then isnt thatGods word coming back void?
:ROFL::ROFL: I am telling you dude none of it holds water...
God knows how it will turn out but he had told jonah nineveh would be destroyed in 40 days too now didnt he, but htye werent so ws God a liar, was he wrong or did he change his plan?
PRedestianting those that He forknew is not the same as just choosing and maing it happen
Posted : 1 Mar, 2012 09:19 PM
"what I meant to say is so you are saying God was only awquanted with those that were elect and not those that were not the elect? "
No, I'm saying that "foreknew" means more than had knowledge of which is clear from the context. God knows everyone. So this knowing, in the context must be unique. For those whom He foreknew, he predestined. Well we know that not all are predestined, so the foreknew doesn't simply mean to have knowledge of. When scripture speaks of God knowing particular individuals it is often speaking of His affection...speaking to Israel in Amos 3:2 He says, "You only have I known of all the families of the earth; therefore I will punish you for all your iniquities.� Now clearly God knew all of the families of the earth, so we must understand this knowing to be in a special way. We see it again in Matthew 7:22-23 "22 On that day many will say to me, �Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?� 23 And then will I declare to them, �I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.� Now we know that God know everybody so clearly the know here have a deeper meaning. Now check this out...�But if one loves God, one is known by him," 1 Corinthians 8:3. Again, does God not know all?
PRedestianting those that He forknew is not the same as just choosing and maing it happen
Posted : 1 Mar, 2012 09:24 PM
NO I am not a liar, you posted that article I coppied it when I foirst read it and saved it I amnot going back to re read all that junk you posted just to prove to you that yu posted it, and I said I dont care what your intentions were becasue my point is you posted what you thought refuted what I said but it didnt , that qoute proved what I was saying all along, you just dont like it that you are the one who poted it, you dont need to be calling me a liar , I may get emotional, but you know what if you dont get emotional about the word of God and what God has done for you, i would doubt very seriously that you you know what I know and have been truly deliuverd from the bondage of sin, becasue when I know for sure i ma deliverd from a firley hell and deilverd from the bondage of sin, I get emotional yes, but that doesnt change the fact that I know what I know'
further more how is it, that I can say that the scriptue here implys that its the ones God forknew would choose him,
but you can say the world is not the whole world but either part of the world or its the actula dirt that God loved?
and you can say its notr al but some of all
and you can say its not whoselver but its eveyr one that God already chose..
and its not noe but its none of some?
how is that ?
how is it that the rules arent the same for me as they are for you?
you change it where you see fit?
you think you know so much but well if you know anything about scripture then you know what it says about your own understanding!
You want to believe that God just picked you out and saved you and you have no resposibility because thats the easy ay out
but Jesus aid take up your cross and follow him
HEY ISNT THAT US ACTULY DOING SOMETHING< IS THAT JESUS SAYING WE ARE TO SAVE OURSELF?
good grief!
Last I heard carying a cross wa hard wok and did involve us doing something
PRedestianting those that He forknew is not the same as just choosing and maing it happen
Posted : 1 Mar, 2012 09:28 PM
But if one loves God, one is known by him," 1 Corinthians 8:3. Again, does God not know all?
OK isnt that the same hings as what i said, if one loves God the he is nown by God .. but its no even plausible for us to have loved God before the foundations of the earth..
But isnt it plauseble that God forknew that we would love him therfor he forknew us? what you are saying makes know since
that scripture again is oppoisit of what you are saying, you ae saying it was Gods choice but that scriputre right there says if we love him the he knows us
PRedestianting those that He forknew is not the same as just choosing and maing it happen
Posted : 1 Mar, 2012 09:31 PM
Many times "know" is practically synonymous with "love"
Keep reading in Romans...come to chapter 11, verse 2... "God has not rejected his people whom he foreknew." Clearly it is the people that he foreknew. That is the plain reading of the text. Keep reading to verse 5.."5 So too at the present time there is a remnant, chosen by grace." Amen! We are CHOSEN BY GRACE. Saving grace is not for all.
PRedestianting those that He forknew is not the same as just choosing and maing it happen
Posted : 1 Mar, 2012 09:45 PM
OK number one I want to clear somethingup, Donna just about never offends me, so your notion that me being ticked off by your doctrine is false, its your smugg attitude and your asumption that you know everything and I know nothing becasue i am an ignorant armainien and you are an all knowing person of the refoprmed faith that iritates me, just becasue I dont respond to all your many posts doesnt mean I havent been reading, so I haveseen your attitued already on here and let me say nobody ever likes aknow it all, and it rubs people the wrong way especialy me of jump street!
Secon I want to say that I have been going through all of this every since I joinde the forumes and ther was even a time when thoght they might be right and there are somethings that they are right about, I am not so proud and so loyal to the catagory I fall into that i cant admit ther are some things that they are corect about
but let me say this, you dont have any way of knowing how God chose his elect if in act thats what happend
But its a reasonable asumption from scripture that God knows the outcome of everything He knows the heart of every man, he knows who would and wouldnt love him he knows who wil ebel and who will serve him, becasue he knows the beginig fronm the end and he knows the hearts of men, us being reasonable people with a mind God gave us isnt it a reasonable asumption that God would predesitinate the ones that He already knew would love him
Cause you say that we have no choice when it comes to salvation
but does it make sence to you that we would have a choice about everuthng else in life but this one ting God would change the parameers?
I mean God is alwasy the smae he never changes his personality is evedent in all tings, he gives us choices every single day in life in fact in Deutaromny it says CHOOSE LIFE!!
CHOOSE LIFE!!!! so now how is it that we can choose life way back in that scripture that I would have to look u to give you chapter and verse but a simple search in BLB will help you find it if you dont believe me, how is it we can choose life in that scripture but we have no choice when it comes to repentence?
if you would use your reasoing skillis youwould see that is the only thing that makes semce!
BUt you wont becasue its easier to put all the responisbilty on God and this way you have no choice in the matter so whatever happens happens
OH yeah so whats the point inour rewards, I mean if we have no choice in anything then why would we get a reward, and if God has chosen everyone who wil be saved then why would Jesus reward us for our works at the judgement seat of Christ or the beama seat as its called by paul?
i mean whats the point oin that , we didnt have nothing to do with any of it, we didnt DO anything us DOING something would constitue us saving ourself so, we really shouldnt be getting a reward , a reward for what WE DIDNT DO ANYTHING BECSAUE WE CAN DO ANYTHING IF WE DO SOMETHING THEN WE HAVE SAVED OURSELF OR SAVED SOMEONE ELSE FOR THAT MATTER WHY WOULD WE GET A REWARD??
