This is being posted for the purpose of study and/or discussion
It should be cautioned that proof texting is far too easy for anyone to do, and with any of these verses the context should be considered. Far too often, context is ignored and erroneous interpretations are formed. So, use these verses, but corroborate their contexts. These verses and explanations faithfully represent Arminianism to have strong Biblical support.
The Arminians believe and hold fast to ~
Election is conditional
Atonement is available for all
Grace is resistible
We must remain in Christ to be secure
Man has libertarian free will
God's prevenient grace
Sin is not from God
Verses that show election is conditional:
Matthew 11:28-30 - Salvation is an invite to those who will come.
John 3:16
John 4:42
John 6:40
John 6:51 - Must eat of the bread of life to receive benefit.
Acts 13:39
Romans 1:16-17
Romans 9:30
Romans 5:1-2 - It is through faith that we are made a part of Christ.
Ephesians 1:13
1 Timothy 4:10 - Jesus died for all, but there is a specific subset that receives the benefits, namely those who believe.
1 Peter 1:1-2 - Election is according to God's foreknowing who shall believe.
Verses that show the atonement is available for all:
Isaiah 53:6 - The iniquity of us all was put on Christ.
Matthew 11:28-30 - Any who come to Christ are welcome.
Matthew 18:14 - The Father does not wish that any should perish (anti predestined-reprobation).
John 1:7 - Jesus intended for all, wants all to believe.
John 1:29
John 3:16-17
John 6:33, 51
John 12:32, 47
Romans 3:23-24 - All have sinned and all have access to justification in Christ Jesus.
Romans 5:6 - Christ died for the ungodly. Since all are ungodly, Christ died for all.
Romans 5:15 - Since sin spread to all, Christ's atonement is meant for all.
Romans 10:13 - Whoever calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.
2 Corinthians 5:14-15 - All died, yet Christ died for all.
1 Timothy 2:3-6 - God desires all men to be saved, and gave Himself for all
1 Timothy 4:10
Titus 2:11 - God's necessary grace that leads to repentance appears to all.
Hebrews 2:9 - Jesus tasted death for everyone.
Hebrews 10:10 - Christ offered once for all.
2 Peter 3:9
1 John 4:14
1 John 2:2 - Jesus is the propitiation, not just for believers, but for the whole world.
John 4:42
Revelation 22:17
Verses that show grace is resistible:
Jeremiah 7:24
Luke 7:30
Acts 7:51 - Blatant resistance of the Holy Spirit. It is proper to infer that if they didn't resist, they would have been led to repentance.
Romans 10:16 - Not all who hear will believe.
2 Corinthians 6:1 - One can receive God's grace, yet not appropriate it in their lives.
Verses that show we must remain in Christ to be secure:
Romans 11:17-24
1 Corinthians 15:2
Ephesians 5:3-7
Colossians 1:21-23
2 Peter 1:10
2 Peter 2:20-22
Hebrews 6:4-6
Hebrews 10:26
James 1:12; 5:19-20
Verses that show man has libertarian free will:
Free will offering verses
Exodus 35:29; 36:3
Leviticus 7:16; 22:18, 21, 23; 23:38
Numbers 15:3; 29:39
Deuteronomy 12:6, 17; 16:10
2 Chronicles 31:14; 35:8
Ezra 1:4, 6; 3:5; 7:16; 8:28
Psalm 119:108
Ezekiel 46:12
Amos 4:5
Isaiah 1:19-20 - Can choose to be obedient or rebel.
Ezekiel 33:11 - Have the ability to choose from different options.
Luke 7:30 - Pharisees rejected what God wanted for them.
John 7:17 - A person must want to do what God is giving them the grace to do. This verse shows that God allows things He doesn't want to happen.
1 Corinthians 7:37 - Power over own will--not necessitated--that's the definition of LFW.
1 Corinthians 10:13
Verses demonstrating God's prevenient grace
Jeremiah 31:3
John 16:7-11
Romans 2:4 - It is God's grace that leads us to repentance.
Romans 10:14-17 - One must hear God's word to come to faith.
Holding- I believe John 15:16 makes it abundantly clear when it says, "I chose you. You did not choose me". That was my paraphrase of course. Isn't this what the whole debate is about..who chose who?
16 You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit and that your fruit should abide, so that whatever you ask the Father in my name, he may give it to you. John 15:16
I believe Jesus is talking to his Disciples here not the whole world.
I thought I had addressed the point about whether man's action came first or not with Acts 13:48. To my knowledge, your post didn't address this scripture. I understand that you are telling me that man's action must come first. I would like to see that from scripture though. I would like you to address Acts 13:48 if you don't mind. You are correct that context doesn't change anything. It can however provide valuable clarification for us. If you think these things are in violation of the truth that God is not a respector of persons then you need to be able to show why that is so. I do not believe God is a respector of persons either because I do not believe God chose people based on any inherent worth in themselves.
To your points on John 15:16...
How did you come to the conclusion that this is speaking of the Old Covenant? You claim that these verses speak of God choosing those who chose first. However the verse never says this. It actually goes one step farther and says "You did not choose me". That completely eliminates the possibility of it being as you said that God chose those who chose Him. It is clear here they did not choose. I'm not sure why you would liken this verse to God being a respecter of person. God is simply saying He chose. He isn't saying he chose them based on liking someone more or because of something he found within them. Again, you would need to show from the context exactly what it means that God is not a respector of persons. It certainly doesn't mean He doesn't choose, because we have Him saying that He does choose in John 15:16
You say we shouldn't pin down God or put Him in a box. I agree with this. However that does not mean that scripture doesn't tell us who God is. Affirming scripture is not putting God in a box, but rather just accepting who He is.
I don't claim a private interpretation of John 3:15-19. I simply believe that when you look at what is being said in the original text, John 3:16 says that God sent Jesus so that every believing one would not perish. It does not say that God sent Jesus to save every individual who ever lived. That is reading something into the text that simply doesn't exist. Now if you say that the word "world" here MUST mean every person without exception then I would challenge you to look at the very next verse.
17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
First of all it's clear from John 3:17 that Jesus was sent into the world. Now that creates a problem...because the world here is the same exact word from John 3:16. So are we supposed to believe that John 3:17 states that Jesus was sent into every person without exception? NO! We are not. No fair readng of the text would come to that conclusion. So why then do we try to change the meaning of "world" in John 3:16? I wonder why you are so anxious to throw out the point so often that context isn't needed. Is it because context is exactly what you cannot defend against?
There is one problem with your declaration of who can be saved. You never actually posted verses that say who can be saved.
"but he also know's the car does not stop if he does not put his foot on the brake pedal"
There is another who can stop the car. That is God my friend :)
Even if it was true(and I don't believe it is) that John 15:16 was rendered useless in a discussion on election, my other verses have not been addressed by either you or PJ.
Oh I addressed your issue perfectly, you still hold to a private interpretation, one of many in reformation theology to justify the doctrine you hold dear.
The same bible say's it is of those that believes and you admit clearly you do not believe what is written.
Faith, bible faith has and is culminated in man's response to the written word.
I will also add it is evidenced from the time of the fall until this current day. Man demonstrating by and the word of God confirms it time and time again.
It was my understanding that this thread was supposed to be for real biblical discussion. You did not address the points from my first post. I still addressed your post even though you didn't answer mine. I refuse to play these types of games anymore. Either you can participate in a real discussion or you will be ignored by me. Don't try to turn this thread into the same thing you do with all the others.
It has no meaning your threat to ignore, it is you that continually deny, badger, and lie on Christian's.
I want to make it real clear no matter how you try to intimidate and justify your action, they are not in agreement with the word of God.
My response is not what normally be appropriate, but it is in accordance to your continual efforts to derail any biblical discussion.
You have the right to hold on to your theology for God gives you that choice, but it does not make you a representative of the gospel, the word of God,
So if you desire biblical discussions you will have to depart from your theology.
This is not a debate as some would like it to be, and i will also add that according to those who endorse always proclaim to be the one that is correct.
1Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God,
To the saints who are in Ephesus and are faithful* in Christ Jesus:
2 Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, 4just as he chose us in Christ* before the foundation of the world to be holy and blameless before him in love. 5He destined us for adoption as his children through Jesus Christ, according to the good pleasure of his will, 6to the praise of his glorious grace that he freely bestowed on us in the Beloved.
I believe Paul is talking to the saints who are in Ephesus and are faithful in Christ Jesus. I believe these verses mean God chose the faithful in Christ Jesus. He destined those who were faithful for adoption without faith though it is impossible.
Thank you so much for your input KHW and Ryan...you are correct...this is suppose to be "real" Biiblical discussion...We discussed this Having a Real Biblical Discussion on a differant thread that it would be Good to Discuss the Differances so we may better Understand each other and Learn from each other...Unfortunatly we can not Control the [[[ Controling ]]] of the dirrection a person takes it...I'm truely sorry EVERYONE that this CONTINUALLY happens...xo
