Brother Hope, I completely understand. I too, think that the sufficiency of this position is lacking on our part as a whole enough to search the Scriptures for this defense. This is why I'm also looking for a job description on the part of the pastoral role, because I cannot seem to find one from the Scriptures. I can see how we, the body, are to teach and admonish one another from the writings of the epistles, but nothing really showing one man doing this apart from our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ.
I have been pointed a lot to Ephesians 4:11 as far as a pastor, but this really explains the very little as far as what a pastor does from the new testament that I read.
Either way, I think that a good study can come out of this if we all collectively shared what we know from the Word.
Brother PJ, I completely agree with you. The two chapters are about giving to the ones who are on need so that there is no lacking between the brethren such as the event in the Acts of the Apostles. And that we all share in the blessing of Christ, but I've hoped that you would have explained what you think I may have missed with some Scriptural reference though.
But thank you just the same for your words, brother.
I thank you both for your contributions, brothers. I appreciate you input and am blessed to know you more in Christ.
Brother PJ, I completely agree with you. The two chapters are about giving to the ones who are on need so that there is no lacking between the brethren such as the event in the Acts of the Apostles. And that we all share in the blessing of Christ, but I've hoped that you would have explained what you think I may have missed with some Scriptural reference though.
No it has far more content than need.
First and foremost these knew and understood the tithe, there are no offerings until one tithes.
Brother PJ said: No it has far more content than need.
First and foremost these knew and understood the tithe, there are no offerings until one tithes.
There are several points in this context.
ME: Brother, thanks for your input, but you've not yet shown anything you said from the scriptures other than conjecture.
But you do seem to bring up the tithe a lot, so it seems as if you have the need to discuss it.
So, if this is the case, then I will ask you if you can please show me where there is a reference to Christians paying a tithe in the New Testament, please? Thanks.
By the way, if this seems to be a good discussion for all the brethren, then maybe we can make a topic on the matter.
What say you, brother PJ?
Thank you for your clarification on both matters you speak of. I humbly await your provision of Scriptural reference and explanation for both.
Brother PJ said: No it has far more content than need.
First and foremost these knew and understood the tithe, there are no offerings until one tithes.
There are several points in this context.
ME: Brother, thanks for your input, but you've not yet shown anything you said from the scriptures other than conjecture.
But you do seem to bring up the tithe a lot, so it seems as if you have the need to discuss it.
So, if this is the case, then I will ask you if you can please show me where there is a reference to Christians paying a tithe in the New Testament, please? Thanks.
By the way, if this seems to be a good discussion for all the brethren, then maybe we can make a topic on the matter.
What say you, brother PJ?
Thank you for your clarification on both matters you speak of. I humbly await your provision of Scriptural reference and explanation for both.
The entrance of his word giveth light.
You reject the light of tithing-= darkness
That is 1st John.
You reject the Gift of the Holy Ghost= darkness
You reject The gift of The pastor and what you believe shows the word to be so true.
One will always be scattered when the continually reject truth.
Lu 10:7 And in the same house remain, eating and drinking such things as they give: for the labourer is worthy of his hire. Go not from house to house.
Time and time again the word speaks of ministry as lab our unto the lord
You have not put the Holy Spirit in his rightful place, get in faith about his ministry and submit to the lord's your life to the lord and you would not be recognizable in a matter of day's
It makes the word of none affect when whoever reject's the promises of God.
PJ, Seriously, vrother. if you cannot give an excuse for the hope that is in you, then admit it and don't try top make up any sort of excuse to fit your accusations.
First off, the verse you used was out of context, because it was for the 70 that Jesus sent out and not in anyway pointing towards them being paid or tithes. It was specific to THAT event and again the same thing applies with PEACE.
Look:
Luk 10:1 After this the Lord appointed seventy-two others and sent them on ahead of him, two by two, into every town and place where he himself was about to go.
Luk 10:2 And he said to them, "The harvest is plentiful, but the laborers are few. Therefore pray earnestly to the Lord of the harvest to send out laborers into his harvest.
Luk 10:3 Go your way; behold, I am sending you out as lambs in the midst of wolves.
Luk 10:4 Carry no moneybag, no knapsack, no sandals, and greet no one on the road.
Luk 10:5 Whatever house you enter, first SAY, 'PEACE BE TO THIS HOUSE!'
Luk 10:6 And if a son of peace is there, YOUR PEACE WILL REST UPON HIM. But if not,IT [PEACE] WILL RETURN TO YOU.
Luk 10:7 And remain in the same house, eating and drinking what they provide, for the laborer deserves his wages. Do not go from house to house.
Same thing about RECEIVING THE MESSAGE IN THE LATER VERSES, brother.
Look:
Luk 10:8 Whenever you enter a town and they receive you, eat what is set before you.
Luk 10:9 Heal the sick in it and say to them, 'The kingdom of God has come near to you.'
Luk 10:10 But whenever you enter a town and they do not receive you, go into its streets and say,
Luk 10:11 'Even the dust of your town that clings to our feet we wipe off against you. Nevertheless know this, that the kingdom of God has come near.'
Luk 10:12 I tell you, it will be more bearable on that day for Sodom than for that town.
Seriously, bro. Can you actually provide Scriptural support for the pastoral salary (and now tithe) WITHOUT ACTUALLY MAKING ACCUSATIONS, PJ?
PJ Said: You tried to say context nullify's the truth.
ME: No. You're assuming what I said and are twisting it the same way you twisted the Luke verse, bro.
PJ said: It does not work to pass the blame, for when you harden your heart to truth.
ME: I agree, bro. And honestly. Your words are a good evidence of of trying to pass the blame, brother.
By the way, brother. I got this from a website. I think you should read it. I think you will have a lot to say about Calvin and the pastorate you consider as being supported. Ironically, Calvin is the guy who really got the whole pastor thing rolling. Read it.
The word �Pastors� does appear only once in the New Testament (Ephesians 4:11). This reference is included in a list of gifted people within the church: apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors, teachers. Notice the reference is plural. The Greek word translated �Pastors� is poimen. It means �shepherds�. Pastor is the Latin word for shepherd.
There is no evidence that the 1st century church was led by a professional clergy or had a single leader officiating over worship. The administration seemed to be handled by a plurality of Elders. It is known that some churches did not even have elders. The so called "Church Board" doesn't exist in the Bible, and the Deacons are not governamental gifts.
2ND CENTURY
The beginning of a change in church leadership came early in the 2nd century with Ignatius of Antioch. He elevated one elder above all the others and called the newly created office �Bishop�. Ignatius, who of course held the bishop title, gave sweeping powers to this office. He decreed that no one but the bishop could officiate over communion, conduct baptisms, give counsel, discipline church members, approve marriages, and preach sermons. Ignatius believed he was protecting the church from rampant heresy that was threatening its purity and thought that the church needed the centralized organization style of Rome to save it (historically, what Ignatius did was found the practice of �monoepiscopate�. This elevates the single bishop over the elders).
3RD CENTURY
This practice of single bishop rule was not common in the early 2nd century. However, by the mid- 3rd century, it was the prevailing practice of all the churches. Enter Cyprian of Carthage (200-258 C.E.). Cyprian opened the door to Old Testament practices of priests, temples, altars, and sacrifices. Bishops began to be called �priests�. And eventually bishops and presbyters (elders) began to be called �the clergy� (clergy was the name for the professional class of the Roman religious system).
Cyprian taught that the bishop has no authority other than God. Anyone who separates themselves from the bishop�s authority separates themselves from God. Cyprian had run with an idea that had been around for about a century and made it the mortar that finally cemented the power of the bishops. It is called Apostolic Succession. The bishop�s linage was to be traced unbroken to Peter.
Cyprian also invented the notion that there is a divinely appointed person mediating between God and the people. This drove a wedge further between clergy and laity and caused more dependence upon that sacred office.
4TH CENTURY
After the Council of Nicea in 325, more authority and was given to the presbyters who could perform functions such as communion in place of the bishop. They were called �priests� and the bishop was regarded as the �high priest� who even had the authority to forgive sins. By the end of the 4th century, this pyramidal pecking order dominated the church. At the head of the church stood the bishop; under him was the college of presbyters; under them stood the deacons; next in line�oh yeah, can�t forget about them�the lowly laypeople.
Eventually, the bishops walked with the elite of Roman society. They ventured into politics and were given extraordinary privileges. The bishop�s power had extended to entire regions. Eventually, Rome became the power seat of the church and the Roman bishop evolved into the Pope, or Pontifex Maximus. This was the title of the Roman head of the religious system. It was a title emperors wore like a mantel.
The great historian Will Durant stated, �Christianity grew by the absorption of pagan faith and ritual; it became a triumphant church by inheriting the organizing patterns and genius of Rome� As Judea had given Christianity ethics, and Greece had given it theology, so now Rome gave it organization; all these, with a dozen absorbed and rival faiths, entered into the Christian synthesis� captive Rome became her conqueror.�
During the 4th century, the Emperor Constantine organized the church into dioceses which was the method of dividing the administrative units of the empire. He exempted the clergy from taxes�something the pagan priests enjoyed. They enjoyed numerous special privileges common folks were denied and received annual allowances (pay).
Clergy also dressed differently from other people and shaved their heads. Their dress was copied from Roman officials.
It became downright popular to be a Christian with full protection granted by the emperor. People were flocking to the church who were barely converted if at all. They brought their pagan ideas with them. Durant writes, �While Christianity converted the world; the world converted Christianity and displayed the natural paganism of mankind.�
FROM THE 5TH CENTURY UNTIL THE PROTESTANT REFORMATION
By the 5th century, the idea of the priesthood of all believers had disappeared. Access to God was controlled by the clergy.
During the middle ages, the presbyters, now known as priests, were taking on more responsibility. They were the ones who cared over the daily life of the church and administered sacraments. The Parish Priest is born.
Priests were expected to perform to the highest standards. John Chrysostom writing in the late 4th century said, �The priest is like an angel. He is not made of the same frail stuff as the rest of men.�
To arrive at this lofty pinnacle, a technique was provided�ordination. By ordination, a stream of Divine grace flows into the priest (sacerdotal endowment). The priest lived a different life style, dressed differently, and was thought of differently by everyone. He was considered God�s man on earth.
The 16th century brought the Reformation of the church. The reformers attacked many of the long held practices of the clergy. They rejected apostolic succession. They revised the liturgy to give the congregation more participation. They abolished the office of the bishop and reduced the priest back to a presbyter. The reformers restored the priesthood of all believers and tore down the idea that people needed a mediator before God.
The idea that special training was needed for individuals who ministered carried over into the new Protestant system. Ordination was kept as a method of bestowing recognition of qualifications of the professional minister. Like the Catholics, the reformers held that only the �ordained minister� could preach, baptize, and administer the Lord�s Supper.
John Calvin didn�t like the term �priest� to refer to ministers. He preferred the term �pastor�. He liked it because the bible referred to Jesus as, �The great Shepherd of the sheep� (Heb. 13:20). Zwingli and Martin Bucer followed suit and gave further credence to �pastor� as the title for the professional minister. They had such an enthusiasm for preaching that they usually called the pastor �preacher�. It was not until the 18th century that the term �pastor� came into common use with �preacher� and �minister� used less frequently. We thank the Lutheran Pietists for this.
Calvin sang the praises of the office of Pastor. He wrote, �The pastoral office is necessary to preserve the church on earth in a greater way than the sun, food, and drink are necessary to nourish and sustain the present life.� Calvin also protected pastors by prompting the creation of laws in Geneva that punished anyone speaking contemptuously of a pastor.
Both Luther and Calvin shared the idea that the two primary functions of the pastor were to preach and administer communion. Calvin added another�the duty to provide care and healing to the congregation (cure of souls). The pastor was to bring healing, cure, and compassion to the people of the church. Later, Luther and Bucer also practiced this concept. We call it today �pastoral care�.
ME: There is more. This is Calvin's "Institutions of Religion" Pay attention to Book 4 on the pdf. In that book it shows that the Pastor and the practice that we know of today is PURELY FROM HIS OWN CONCOCTION.
Btw the way you have the choice as do all men, you can go to the head of the church to get it right until then, you need to dwell on why you want to talk about everything but him.
