Many persons may reason that if the will is voluntarily choosing something and not coerced, then it is free. Well, we all make voluntary choices but there is still another sense in which the will is not free. When we speak of freedom of the will we need to ask, freedom relative to what? Historically speaking, Biblical scholars have understood a "free will" to be one which has in its power the moral ability to choose good or evil. So when we ask whether man has a free will, we are asking if his will is free (or in bondage) relative to sin and evil. In this respect, of course, the will is not free because through man�s innate wickedness, due to the fall, he is of necessity driven to what is evil, that is, unable to do any redemptive good (Rom 8:7). The natural man's many good works, even though in accord with God's commands, are not well pleasing to God when weighed against His ultimate criteria and standard of perfection. The love of God and His law is never the unbelievers' deepest animating motive and principle, so it does not earn him the right to redemptive blessings from a holy God. And if a choice to do evil is made out of necessity (since the love of God is never the unbeliever's motive), then it is not free, because it cannot choose otherwise. Apart from the work of the Holy Spirit, the natural person of uncircumcised heart is stiffnecked (of necessity) and will refuse to obey the commandments of the law and the gospel. And if the natural man chooses to sin of necessity, there is no sense in which he is free that ultimately matters to God. All choices we make are ethical ones, since, in them, we either glorify God or we do not, and God holds us accountable for these choices. And because God holds us accountable for every choice and thought, the ethical nature of each choice is of primary concern in determining whether the will is free or not.
Bad behavior itself, however, is really only a symptom of a much greater core concern. The natural man chooses/wills only what that inner principle desires most. But if the acts of his will are not determined by his internal nature, but rather are choices unconstrained by our nature and desires, as libertarians claim, then in what sense can it be said that those decisions are the results of a decision of the person himself? So any idea of a neutral will is absurd since our will is always driven by its moral nature which direct our desires (either we love God in our choice or we do not). Jesus said, "a good tree bears good fruit and a bad tree bad fruit." Thus, he is saying that it is the nature of the tree determines the kind of fruit it produces. Only by "making the tree good", Jesus says, will the fruit be good. In other words, unless Jesus redeems us from the bondage to sin (Rom 6; 2 Tim 2:25), we have no hope in the world to make any right (redemptive) choice, including believing the gospel (see John 6:65). Again, in what sense are we in bondage (slaves) to sin if not by our affections or wills? Our affections and desires drive the choices we make binding our will over to certain choices. Jesus said to Nicodemus,
"...men loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil. Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light ..." John 3:19-20 (emphasis mine)
According to this, and many other passages, people exercise their will, of necessity, according to what they love and hate. The reason anyone does not come into the light is because he hates it and his affection is exclusively set on something else. The natural man, without the grace of the Holy Spirit to open his blind eyes and turn his heart of stone to a heart of flesh, loves darkness and hates the light. His will is then exercised within the constraints of the affections, desires and passions of his nature. In Romans chapter 6 when it says we are slaves to sin, in what sense is the natural man a "slave to sin" if not by the will and affections? This is a legitimate question.
The subject of whether or not man has a free will is a more easily understandable than most Christians imagine. The fact is, it can easily be proven from Scripture, that man has no free will (to choose good or evil), and while many already hold to this idea inconsistently, all true Christians really do embrace this idea without consciously knowing it. Ask most evangelicals, whether man has a free will, however, and most will automatically answer, "yes of course", without showing scriptural evidence, but many other beliefs they already confess flatly contradict this assertion. Let me attempt to show you where this inconsistency exists. Here are two simple questions to ask anyone which will remove all false presuppositions and prove, once for all, that the natural man has no free will:
1. Do you believe that the Holy Spirit plays any role in the sinner coming to faith in Christ? (Because the Bible affirms this, all true evangelicals will answer 'yes')
2. Do you believe that, apart from any supernatural work of the Holy Spirit, the sinner, by nature, has the will, ability, affection and desire to come to Christ?
(Because the Bible denies this all true evangelicals will answer 'no')
Thus you have, in two simple questions, completely disarmed any and all argument against the free will of man. Here is plain proof that all Christians, without exception, believe that no man is found NATURALLY willing to submit to the humbling terms of the gospel of Christ. The natural man, apart from the Holy Spirit, has no desire and affection for Christ and thus no free will to believe the gospel or do any redemptive good, because, of necessity, due to a corruption of his/her nature, fallen man is in bondage to sin. If the Holy Spirit is necessary to make us love God, then it follows that we had no ability to love him before the arrival of the Holy Spirit. It also means that the Holy Spirit is not given because we chose to love God. We chose to love God because the Spirit is given. Grace, not a virtue in man, takes the initiative. When we say a person is in bondage it simply means they have no freedom to choose otherwise, left to themselves. Through the centuries, Augustine (Anti-Pelagian Writings), Luther (Bondage of the Will), Calvin (Bondage and Liberation of the Will), Edwards (Freedom of the Will), etc... discussed the free will controversy in terms of sin (bondage) and holiness (freedom). And why did these Reformers all discuss the issue this way? Because this is how the Bible defines bondage and freedom. Using a word picture, when God redeems Israel from Egypt the idea is in their deliverance from bondage to slavery which God had accomplished for His people in the exodus (Exod 6:6). Christ now likewise redeems his people, the true Passover Lamb sacrificed for us so that God, seeing the blood on our doorpost, so to speak, passes over our sins, But now, instead of being delivered from physical slavery in Egypt Christ sets us free from the bondage of our wills to sin, enabling us to believe. He died for the reign of sin that once mastered us. So when Reformed Christians now and through history discuss whether or not we have a free will, they are usually pointing to the fact that man's will and affections are broken and, due to fallen nature, "will not come into the light" (John 3:20). The libertarian, on the other hand, asserts that we have the innate ability to choose otherwise, that is, contrary to who we are by nature. But Augustine, finding more support in the Bible, asserted that prior to the Fall, (1) man was able to sin or not sin. (2) But after the Fall, unregenerate man is not able not to sin. (3) Fallen, but regenerated man is able to sin or not sin, and (4) Glorified man is not able to sin.
The Scripture describes fallen man as those who are hostile to God (Rom 8:7; Col 1:21) are in bondage to sin (Gal 4:3; 6:17, 20), and taken captive by Satan to do his will (2 Tim 2:25), until the Son sets them free (John 8:36). Why would the Son need to set them free from sin unless they were not free, i.e. slaves to sin? When we speak of man having no free will we are not saying man's will is not self-determined, because it is. But self-determination is not the same thing as free will, because, we can only choose what we desire most, and that which we desire is in bondage to who we are by nature. As fallen creatures, then, we will only choose according to our corrupt nature, and cannot choose otherwise, so the outcome of our choice is determined. The natural man will always choose reject Christ due to the effects of sin on his affections. John Calvin said there is a great "difference there is between necessity and coercion. For we do not say that man is dragged unwillingly into sinning, but that because his will is corrupt he is held captive under the yoke of sin and therefore of necessity [will exercise his] will in an evil way. For where there is bondage, there is necessity. But it makes a great difference whether the bondage is voluntary or coerced. We locate the necessity to sin precisely in corruption of the will, from which follows that it is self-determined. (John Calvin, BLW pp 70)
Indeed, God sovereignly directs our wills to a particular outcome that is certain, but there is no Scriptural evidence that says this goes against what we want most at that moment. Rather, the Scripture simply says that the will is evil by a corruption of nature, but only becomes good by the grace of Jesus Christ applied by the Holy Spirit. It is not because of natural strength that we believe. We do not, in our unregenerate state, convert ourselves. By our own efforts, apart from the Holy Spirit, we cannot achieve this for Jesus says 'apart from Me you can do nothing.' The Scripture further testifies that "no one can say 'Jesus is Lord' except by the Holy Spirit" (1 Corinthians 12:3) and the natural man does not understand the things of the Spirit, because they are spiritually appraised. They are foolishness to him (1 Cor 2:14) and he acts only as he is acted upon, in accordance to the measure of grace he has received. While the preaching of the gospel is necessary to cast forth the seed of the gospel, it will not fall onto good soil unless the Spirit plows up the fallow ground and germinates the seed (so to speak). The soil is not good by nature but is made good by grace.
But people still tend to confuse coercion with necessity. Recently I heard Ron Rhodes interviewed on a local radio station and he said God did not create us as robots ... and this is correct, and then he said, God gave us free choice [between good and evil]... which is right when applied to Adam (since his will was not yet corrupted or in bondage)... But when we say Adam was free we do not mean that he was free from the eternal decrees of God, but we mean free, as the Bible defines freedom (free from bondage to a sin nature). but then Rhodes commits a fatal error is when he said that "our will is free just like Adams'" ...which is nonsense. Our will is corrupted and in bondage till Christ sets us free. What Rhodes means to say, I believe, is that we are not robots, which is true ... but this is not how the Scripture defines the will which is not free ... so it is wrong to teach that man has a free will. It destroys the very gospel we preach.
The unregenerate or natural man, who is by nature hostile to God, loves sin, and thus, apart from the grace of regeneration, will not seek God on God's terms (1 Cor 2:14, Rom 8:7). He will invariably use his boasted "free will" to flee from, and suppress the truth of God (Rom 1:18). The regenerate (those the Spirit has quickened), on the other hand, are granted a renewed sense or disposition which has new understanding, desires and holy affections for God. As such, our natural hostility to God (John 3:19, 20) is disarmed and so we freely exercise our will to trust in Jesus, who now holds our supreme affection over all other idols. The Scripture gives clear witness to the concept that our nature drives what kind of choices we make:
"It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing; the words that I have spoken to you are spirit and are life. But there are some of you who do not believe ... And He was saying, "For this reason I have said to you, that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted him from the Father." ( John 6:63-65)
[note: "the phrase "come to Me" is a synonym for "faith" or "believe" so no one can believe unless God grants it and verse 37 says "all that the Father gives me will come to me" so we have a syllogism which say none will believe unless God grants it but all to whom God grants it will believe. ]
"Do people pick grapes from thorn bushes, or figs from thistles? Likewise every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. "[note: a person produces fruit in accord with his nature] (Matt 7:16-18)
" Either make the tree good and its fruit good, or make the tree bad and its fruit bad. You brood of vipers, how can you, being evil, speak what is good? The good man brings out of his good treasure what is good; and the evil man brings out of his evil treasure what is evil. " (Matt 12:33- 35)
"Can the Ethiopian change his skin Or the leopard his spots? Then you also can do good Who are accustomed to doing evil." (Jeremiah 13:23)
"But you do not believe because you are not of My sheep. My sheep hear My voice, and know them, and they follow Me." (John 10:26-27)
34Jesus replied, "I tell you the truth, everyone who sins is a slave to sin..."If you were Abraham's children," said Jesus, "then you would do the things Abraham did. As it is, you are determined to kill me, a man who has told you the truth that I heard from God. Abraham did not do such things. 41You are doing the things your own father does...44You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father's desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies. 45Yet because I tell the truth, you do not believe me! 46Can any of you prove me guilty of sin? If I am telling the truth, why don't you believe me? 47He who belongs to God hears what God says. The reason you do not hear is that you do not belong to God." John 8:34-47
In other words, water does not rise above its source. Apart from the work of the Spirit, we cannot lift a finger toward our own salvation. It is about as likely as your ability to create a world.
Arminian theology defines and affirms freewill as an inalienable power to do otherwise [ that moral decisions are strictly uncaused, independent of all our desires], whereas the biblical position (The texts of which were quoted above) defines and affirms freewill as a voluntary or uncoerced decision [according to our greatest desire]. On the latter definition, freedom and determinism are consistent (compatibilism). Reformed theology denies freewill in the Arminian sense. There are several specific respects in which Reformed theology denies freewill. It denies that (i) an agent is free to thwart the divine decree; that (ii) the unregenerate are free to believe the Gospel; that (iii) the regenerate are free to commit apostasy, or that (iv) the glorified are free to sin. The Arminian version attacks the Reformed version on ethical grounds whereas the Reformed version attacks the Arminian version on exegetical and philosophical grounds. - Adapted from Steve Hays
Yeshua and the Father are one. They are of one mind, one will, etc.
To state that Yeshua had a will outside of the Father would be to divide a house against itself. Mark 3: 24-25 And if a kingdom be divided against itself, that kingdom cannot stand.25 And if a house be divided against itself, that house cannot stand.
This is your own bifurcation Jude. It is not taught in Scripture.
Feel free to reference John 17. Here is a portion where Yeshua plainly states:
21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:
23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me
So...let me get this right...You are saying I didnt read or interpret the Scripture correctly...that Yahshua Messiah ~ Christ Jesus who is GOD Incarnate in the Flesh has Absolutely NO Will of His own...that He can do NOTHING ???...well then...that would be saying Jesus is not GOD and that He is a lier...and He...who is Father~ Jesus ~ Holy Spirit are all ONE...and they dont lie...xo
39 Therefore they could not believe, because that Esaias said again,
40 He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them John 12
17. They say unto the blind man again, What sayest thou of him, that he hath opened thine eyes? He said, He is a prophet. John 9
20 And many of them said, He hath a devil, and is mad; why hear ye him? 21 Others said, These are not the words of him that hath a devil. Can a devil open the eyes of the blind? John 10
Oh...afor I forget...thats a interesting profile pix ya have up...satan taking a mask of our beloved Christ Jesus off and pointing a finger outward...and identify your self as a "Christian"...Just remember yall...when ya point the finger outward...there are ALWAYS 3 pointing back atcha...Be Blessed yall...and Bob...these are for you...:bouncy:...xoxoxoxoxoxoxoxoxoxoxoxoxoxoxoxoxoxoxoxoxoxoxoxoxoxoxoxoxoxoxoxoxoxoxoxoxoxoxoxoxoxoxoxoxoxoxoxo...:yay:
I find it hard to believe this when I see your posts that clearly show you do not understand our beliefs.
" It is in knowing the word of God and understanding it that expose the error of reformed theology."
And which verse is it that does this? Try showing something other than John 3:16. The bible is very large. Surely you can come up with another verse besides the one that has been clearly shown to know say what you claim is says.
" Number one Ryan you believe as you post man as a spirit is dead as in a corpse, and that is in total denial of scripture."
4 But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, 5 even WHEN WE WERE DEAD in our trespasses, MADE US ALIVE together with Christ� by grace you have been saved
So while we were dead, God made us alive. Hmmm, you disagree with this. You think it should read, while man was doing some bad things, he decided to choose God. The spirit is dead in the sense that it cannot respond to God in love. It is bound by sinful nature. Tell me something, if we were not dead...How exactly did God make us alive? Your position simply doesn't hold water.
Salvation 100% Free and Rewards are 100% earned !!
GOD HAS PROMISED IN JEREMIAH 29:13: YOU WILL FIND ME WHEN YOU SEEK ME WITH **ALL YOUR HEART**.�
John 14:23: Jesus says, �If anyone loves Me, he will obey My teaching, My Father will love him, and We will make Our home with him.�
Matthew 28:19,20: Jesus commands, �Go and make disciples of all nations... teaching them to *OBEY EVERYTHING I have commanded you!�
I John 2:3-5: �We know that we have come to know Him **IF** we obey His commands. The man who says, �I know Him,� but does not do what He commands is a liar, and the Truth is not him. But if anyone **OBEYS HIS WORD**, God's **LOVE** is truly made complete in Him!!�
So let us read God's Word daily {Acts 17:11} and then *DO WHAT IT SAYS*! {James 1:22,25}
Acts 17:11: �The Bereans were of noble character, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures *EVERY DAY*!�
James 1:22,25: �Do not merely listen to the Word. *DO WHAT IT SAYS*!... and he who continues to do this, not forgetting what he has heard, but *DOING IT*�will be blessed in what he does.
2 Peter 1:3-11: �His Divine power has given us everything we need for life and godliness through our knowledge of Him who called us by His own glory and goodness. Through these He has given us His very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires. For this reason, make every effort to add to your faith {a 100% Free Gift}; goodness, and to goodness, knowledge; and to knowledge, self-control; and to self-control perseverance; and to perseverance, godliness; and to godliness, brotherly kindness, and to brotherly kindness, LOVE. For if you possess these qualities in INCREASING MEASURE, they will keep you from being ineffective and unproductive in your knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. But if anyone does not have them, he is nearsighted and blind, and has forgotten that he has been cleansed from his past sins. Therefore, my brothers, be all the more eager to make your calling and election sure. For if you do these things, you will never fall, and you will receive a **RICH WELCOME** into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!!�
Matthew 16:27; Jesus says, �The Son of Man is going to come in **HIS FATHER'S GLORY WITH HIS ANGELS** {See Matt 24:30,31 & 2 Thess 1:6-10}, and *THEN* He will reward each person according to what he has done.� Revelation 22:12: Jesus says, �Behold, I am coming soon! My reward is with Me, and I will give to everyone according to what he has done!� {When Jesus comes in His Father's glory with His angels}
2 Corinthians 5:10: For we must all appear before the Judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive what is due him for the things done while in the body, {When Jesus comes in His Father's glory with His angels} whether good or bad.�
Ephesians 2:8-10: It is by grace you have been saved, through faith--and this is NOT from yourselves, it is the GIFT of God--not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do. So Salvation is the ***FREE GIFT*** of God's grace and good works can only be performed by the saved.
Salvation is a 100% Free Gift and REWARDS are 100 % earned.
Matthew 5:14,16: Jesus says, �You are the LIGHT of the world...Let your LIGHT shine before men, that they may see your good deeds and praise your Father in heaven.
I Corinthians 3:6-9: Paul says, �The Lord has assigned to each his task. I planted the seed. Apollos watered it, but God made it grow... The man who plants and the man who waters have one purpose, and each will be rewarded according to his own labor. For we are God's fellow workers!�
Daniel 12:3: �Those who impart wisdom will shine like the brightness of the heavens, and those who lead many to righteousness, like the stars for ever and ever!!�
So let our lights *SHINE* with the many gifts God has given us and we can have a REVIVAL with the hope of countless eternal rewards for faithful and loving service.:applause::angel::peace:
I Corinthians 1:7: For �You do not lack any spiritual gift as you eagerly wait for our Lord Jesus Christ to be *REVEALED*!�
Side note about "world" for those straightforward folks out there...Remember when I mentioned John's other writings and his usage of "world" and you all just ignored? Let's take a look....23 He said to them, �You are from below; I am from above. You are of this world; I am not of this world." John 8:23...Now Teach, you would have us believe the straightforward interpretation is, "You are of this every single person; I am not of this every single person." See how silly this is? Now, if you take the definition of "world" that I have given on this forum several times....Well now you are on to something.
Okay, back on track....Your will is bound by what you are....Don't believe me? You should...
43 Why do you not understand what I say? It is because you cannot bear to hear my word. 44 You are of your father the devil, and your will is to do your father's desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks out of his own character, for he is a liar and the father of lies. John 8:43-44
7 For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God's law; indeed, it CANNOT. Romans 8:7
CANNOT is the complete opposite of what many of you here would have us believe
Sure...no problem Mike...and welcome to the Biblical Forums...I listed Scriptures for you and others here so everyone may do the reasearch for them selves...being lead by the Holy Spirit...as it should be... =0)...xo
