Mal. 1:3 And I hated Esau, and laid his mountains and his heritage waste for the dragons of the wilderness.
This verses teaches that God hated?
A. Esau
B. Malachi
C. I don't care what the verse says, it's just your interpretation - "GOD LOVES EVERYBODY" See John 3:16
D. I believe in Yashua HaMashiach. :applause: Why don't you preach the Gospel instead? See John 3:15-17 ... xo Oh.. and Calvin killed Servetus...Go figer that one Martha. :toomuch:
E. Btw the way, there is NO hate in love. In otherwords you believe Love, hates when it wants to. Reformed theology is man-made.
F. I just don't think God works like that. God changes his mind based on people's repentance. :peace::peace:
G. I just don't really know - this verse is so confusing.
43 Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy. 44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you; 45 That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust. 46 For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same? 47 And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so? 48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.
Do you see any conflict there? God loves those that he hates, and hates those that he loves? It's much easier to reconcile the inconsistency when you believe the weight of scripture, which says that God hates unrepentant/reprobate sinners, because they willingly and repeatedly reject his mercy. But beyond all that, you'll find that Malachi is talking corporately/symbolically about Israel and Edom, and Paul is confirming the distinction that God made between the two inheritances. The rest of the chapter, Paul is making it clear that Israel, the chosen people, will not be the inheritor of the kingdom because of their unbelief. The "Jacob" that God loved? They fell and tried to earn salvation by works? Paul refers to them as vessels of wrath, fitted for destruction? Paul quotes Jeremiah 18, which defines the Potter comparison. Yes, God will determine to set up or bring down countries and kingdoms, like a potter remakes a vessel, but God will relent of the wrath or the blessing that He thought to bring against against them if there is repentance. So, what I take from it all, is that God does hate Esau(Edom) unless he repents, and God will love Jacob(Israel) unless he rejects God. Paul compares this situation to the Jews and the Gentiles, and regretfully notes that the Jews have rejected the gospel, but rejoicefully concludes that there is still hope for some to be grafted back in, because "whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved." or another way to put it, "whoever believes and repents".
And make sure and read the story of Jacob and Esau. Esau did not personally submit to Jacob at any time during his life. Look at Jacobs return to his homeland, he bowed and subjugated himself before his older brother, begged him to take his gifts, etc. Malachi is speaking of the nations, not the individuals, in the same way that Paul uses the verse in Malachi to compare Jews and Gentiles.
That all sounds dandy...........but.........it just doesn't line up with the "weight of scripture"
"So, what I take from it all, is that God does hate Esau(Edom) unless he repents, and God will love Jacob(Israel) unless he rejects God. " -- Well that might be what you take from it but that isn't what it says. Read what it says.
For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth......
Neither child was born yet.... this is definitely referring to two individuals....Jacob and Esau. Neither had done anything good or evil...... yet God hated one and loved the other, why? In order that his purpose of ELECTION might stand -- to show that it is not of works but God who calls. Did you catch that? It's NOT of works but because of ELECTION.
Jacob was an individual, so we Esau. Does this logically extend to "corporate" Israel and Edom... you bet it does but it does not negate it's individuality. It ain't one or the other..it's both. Was Adam an individual? Did he also represent "corporate" mankind?
The Jacob that God loved (his ELECT) did not fall. He was a child of promise. The seed of Abraham are NOT all Israel. Those that were children of the flesh fell.
" Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel: Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed." Romans 9:6-8
"Of this man's seed hath God according to his promise raised unto Israel a Saviour, Jesus" Who is Israel again? THE ELECT. The children of promise not the children of the flesh.
"And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise." Gal 3:29
But how does one become Christ's? " Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ: According as he hath chosen (elected) us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love." Eph. 1:3-4
The funnest quiz - Why did God love Jacob and Hate Esau?
Because He wills (chose) to. Because He is God and He can do whatever He pleases.
"Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?" Rom.9:20-21
"Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth." Rom 9:18
" But our God is in the heavens: he hath done whatsoever he hath pleased. " Ps. 115:3
" Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will". Eph.1:5
God willed to make us free agents with our own wills and because God willed to make us free agents. It is Gods will to respect our decision to accept or reject Him and in doing so we are vessles prepared for honor or dishonor.
Once one truly begins to know the nature of God then things come into perspective but not untill then.
Our God is peace, right? Is not Jesus the prince of Peace?
I have difficulty combining a God of wrath and a God of peace then it dawned on me that maybe the translations are wrong when it comes to the wrath of God.
I have difficulty believing God needs to be wrathful against anyone because He is so powerful and self controlled. Since He is truth and even on the mountain it was the still small voice that was Gods not all the wind and loud stuff, right?
Even when I would dicipline my daughter it was with a small voice and great controll of my self and never wrathful towards her.
But you know she was the one who was the wrathfull one and her wrath was upon me when I diciplined her.
I truly believe it really is the other way around that it is not Gods anger on the lost but it is their anger towards God and this is the fire of Hell that will burn in them for all eternity.
"God willed to make us free agents with our own wills and because God willed to make us free agents. It is Gods will to respect our decision to accept or reject Him and in doing so we are vessles prepared for honor or dishonor." " I cant explain it any more clear or simple."
I would never serve a God like that. Your last two posts make very clear that we do NOT serve the same God. I can't say it any more clear or simple.
I'd ask you to provide even a shred of Biblical support for the claims that you made but that would be a fool's errand. (a completely absurd, pointless, or useless errand)
Job 23:
13 But he is in one mind, and who can turn him? and what his soul desireth, even that he doeth.
14 For he performeth the thing that is appointed for me: and many such things are with him.
15 Therefore am I troubled at his presence: when I consider, I am afraid of him.
16 For God maketh my heart soft, and the Almighty troubleth me:
"I have difficulty combining a God of wrath and a God of peace then it dawned on me that maybe the translations are wrong when it comes to the wrath of God."
:ROFL::excited: -- Yeah... maybe the translations are wrong whenever I don't agree with what the Bible says. Truly a classic line, LTM. Just for fun, how do you know that the "translations aren't wrong" when it says that Jesus is the prince of peace? For that matter, how can you really know what to believe from any verse, of any chapter, in any book, of either testament? After all, maybe the whole translation is wrong....... :laugh:
.........thank you for the unintentional comic relief first thing this morning.......
Just for you LTM --- Keep in mind that all of the referenced verses might have "wrong translations" :ROFL:
The problem is that God does not take any delight in sin (Ps. 5:4), hates and detests sin (Prov. 6:16; Zech. 8:17), and hides His face from sinful people (Isa. 59:2; 64:7). God is so profoundly troubled by sin that He feels both sorrow (Gen. 6:5-6; Isa. 63:10; Eph. 4:30) and anger over sin (Ex. 4:14; 15:7; Lev. 26:27-33; Num. 11:1; 12:9; 22:22; 25:3; Deut. 3:17; 29:24-29; Josh. 7:1; Judg. 2:14; 2 Sam. 24:1; 1 Kings 14:15; 15:30; 16:2; 25:53; 2 Kings 13:3; 17:11; 23:19; 1 Chron. 13:10; 2 Chron. 28:25; Ps. 7:11; 11:4-7; Heb. 10:27; ). Jesus is also angry at sin (Mark 3:5). Fortunately, God�s anger is perfect, always merited, is aroused slowly (Ex. 34:6-8), sometimes turned away (Deut.13:17), and often delayed (Isa. 48:9) or even held back (Ps. 78:38).
However, God�s anger at sinners is so severe that the Bible says He hates them (Ps. 5:5; Hos. 9:15; Amos 5:21; Mal. 1:3; Rom. 9:13; Rev. 2:6). Additionally, God�s wrath is mentioned nearly 600 times in the Old Testament by some 20 different words and these concepts are also found in the New Testament, though less frequently (e.g., John 3:36; Rom. 1:18; 5:9; Eph. 5:6; Col. 3:6; 1 Thess. 1:10). Jesus is also said to have wrath (Rev. 6:16-17). Some people greatly struggle to accept the truth that God�s anger is personal, while hypocritically having no reservation in accepting the personal love of God. Still others will say that a loving God could not get angry, but a loving God is by definition required to be angry at sinners who destroy that which He loves, such as widows and orphans (Ex. 22:22-24), faithful spouses (Ezek. 23:20-25), and innocent people (Ezek. 16:38). Indeed, the Bible speaks of God�s anger, wrath, and fury more than His love, grace, and mercy.
God�s wrath begins in this life as He simply allows us to live out of our sin nature without stopping us (Rom. 1:18, 24, 26). God�s wrath continues to burn against us, forever (Deut. 32:21-22; John 3:36; Eph. 5:6; Rev. 14:9-11). The place of God�s unending active wrath is hell, which Jesus spoke of more than anyone in the Bible as an eternal place (Matt. 25:46) of painful torment (Matt. 8:11-12), like taking a beating (Luke 12:46-48), getting butchered (Matt. 24:50-51), and burned (Matt. 8:29; 13:49-50; 18:8-9; 25:41; Mark 9:43-48; Luke 16:19-31) by Jesus (Matt. 8:29; Mark 1:24; 5:7; Rev. 14:10). Because God�s angry wrath is just, God is not obligated to lovingly forgive anyone, as is the case with fallen angels who have no possibility of salvation (2 Peter 2:4).
