Thread: A Resort to the Historicist View of Revelation 18: 23 To Oppose Any Prophecy of An Apostasy In Our Present Time
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A Resort to the Historicist View of Revelation 18: 23 To Oppose Any Prophecy of An Apostasy In Our Present Time
Posted : 21 Sep, 2013 04:43 PM
A Resort to the Historicist View of Revelation 18: 23 To Oppose Any Prophecy of An Apostasy In Our Present Time
"And the light of a candle shall shine no more at all in thee; and the voice of the bridegroom and of the bride shall be heard no more at all in thee: for thy merchants were the great men of the earth; for by thy sorceries were all nations deceived." Revelation 18: 23
On another Christian dating service forum someone said of Revelation 18: 23 that
"The reference to Babylon is to an actual historical city-state in what Rev 18:23 is referring to and was a Semitic Akkadian city-state (founded in 1894 BC by an Amorite dynasty) of ancient Mesopotamia, the remains of which are found in present-day Hillah, Babil Governorate, Iraq, about 85 kilometres (53 mi) south of Baghdad. All that remains of the original ancient famed city of Babylon today is a large mound, or tell, of broken mud-brick buildings and debris in the fertile Mesopotamian plain between the Tigris and Euphrates rivers. The city itself was built upon the Euphrates, and divided in equal parts along its left and right banks, with steep embankments to contain the river's seasonal floods."
This looks like it was taken from a book, article or an online text. But what is interesting is that the comment shows no understanding of the use of metaphor in prophecy. In the comment there is no explanaction at all of how the light of a candle shining no more and the voice of the bridegroom and of the bride not being heard in Babylon relates to this literal city-state of Babylon which was long gone at the time John wrote the Book of Revelation.
The comment is part of an argument, which is said not to be an argument, to overthrow the interpretation that Revelation 18: 23 is talking about the light of the Gospel of Christ not shining any more and the voice of Jesus Christ and the elect of Christ not being heard in this metaphoric concept called Babylon.
This particular comment about Babylon in Revelation 17 and 18 being literal and historical Babylon, whose ruins are in present day Iraq, could be part of the historical view of the Book of Revelation. This view says that Revelation presents the history of some period of time, and perhaps the historicists do not agree on what this period is, and history is presented by the use of symbols which are supposed to correspond to events in history, though again, historicists do not always agree on what particular symbols mean in history.
Falling back to an historicist view of Revelation 18: 23 is one way to protect the II Timothy 3: 5-8 from the revelation of that verse pointing out that the light of Christ no longer shines and his voice and the voice of his elect are no longer heard. But its not convincing, and fails as an argument to defend the churches from the propecy about their apostasy..
It may be that the dispensationalist argument is a little better, though still false. It would claim that the falling away of II Thessalonians 2: 3-4, and all the other prophecies of an apostasy in the churches, such as I Timothy 4: 1-2, II Timothy 3: 5-8, II Timothy 3: 13, II Timothy 4: 3-4, II Peter 2: 1-3 and Matthew 24: 11 does not happen until after the beginning of the tribulation, when the dispensationalist church has been raptured off he earth. Even without the rapture, putting off the apostasy until the dispensationalist version of the tribulation occurs protects the church from the prophecy of apostasy at this point in time.
The dispensationalist end time scenario says the tribulation is a seven
year period of great distress due to frightening earth changes and other plagues which
hinder, terrorize and kill many people. So, to avoid the tribulation, the man made
theology of John Darby, C.I. Scofield, Lewis S. Chafer and many
contemporary Christian celebrities following them say that the church will
be raptured off the earth to escape this horrible period at the time of the age.
There are problems in scripture with the dispensationalist view of a definite tribulation period which can be identified by many or most Christians. First of all, Matthew 24: 29 says "Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and he stars shall fall from heaven, and he powers of the hedavens shall be shaken."
If the dreadful period of earth changes are to occur after the end of something called the tribulation, then what is the tribulation itself? There are hints about it in Old Testament prophecy.
Isaiah 26: 20-21 says "Come, my people, enter thou into thy
chambers, and shut thy doors about thee: hide thyself as it were for a
little moment, until the indignation be overpast.
21. For, behold, the LORD cometh out of his place to punish the
inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity: the earth also shall
disclose her blood, and shall no more cover her slain."
Indignation is Strong's Exhaustive Concordance number 2195, za-am, from 2194, froth at the mouth, figuratively. Number 2194 is said to mean "to be enraged, abhor, abominable,angry, have indignation." The Lord has indignation toward the disobedience of those claiming to be his people and he judges them for that disobedience.
The time of trouble in Daniel 12: 1, the day of wrath of Zephaniah 1: 15, and the indignation of Isaiah 26: 20 are all about the judgment of
the Lord on those claiming to be his people because of their failure to obey his commandments, by their specific sins and their following of false doctrines.
God gives those who claim to be his people but do not obey him and accept his doctrines
over to their false doctrines as judgment. II Thessalonians 2: 10-11 says "And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie."
"For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth." Luked 21: 35
Paul in I Corinthians 10: 11 says "Now all these things happened unto
them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom
the ends of the world are come."
The falling away from obedience to the commandments and truth of the
Lord shown by Jeremiah, which resulted in judgment as a literal
captivity of physical Israel to Babylon can be seen to be re-enacted
toward the end during the period of the New Covenant.
God calls his people out of Babylon as a metaphoric concept for being in false doctrines.
Jeremiah 51: 6 again calls God's people out of metaphoric Babylon. "Flee out of the midst of Babylon, and deliver every man his soul: be not cut off in her iniquity; for this is the time of the LORD's vengeance; he will render unto her a recompence."
Jeremiah 51: 9 says "We would have healed Babylon, but she is not healed: forsake her, and let us go every one into his own country: for her judgment reacheth unto heaven, and is lifted up even to the skies."
"And thou shalt say, Thus shall Babylon sink, and shall not rise from the evil that I will bring upon her: and they shall be weary. Thus far are the words of Jeremiah." Jeremiah 51: 64
In the New Covenant timeline the falling away from obedience to the doctrines given by the Lord is repeated.
Revelation 18: 4 repeats Jeremiah 51:6, in calling God's people out of Babylon. "And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues."
Then, there is the interesting statement in Revelation 18: 23, "And the light of a candle shall shine no more at all in thee; and the voice of the bridegroom and of the bride shall be heard no more at all in thee: for thy merchants were the great men of the earth; for by thy sorceries were all nations deceived."
The light of a candle refers to Christ's light (John 8: 12). But in Matthew 5: 14 Christ says "Ye are the light of the world." Before falling away into false doctrines, Christians were the light of the world.
"Ye are the salt of the earth: but if the salt have lost his savour, wherewith shall it be salted? it is thenceforth good for nothing, but to be cast out, and to be trodden under foot of men." Matthew 5: 13
"Savour" is from the Greek word moraino, Strong's Exhaustive Concordance number 3471, which is from Number 3474, moros, "dull, or stupid." Our English word moron comes from moros. Having the light of Christ, and being the salt of the earth, is a state of the spirit and mind which is the opposite of being dull or stupid. In the falling away (II Thessalonians 2: 3) those who still claim to be the people of God are also given over to a state of cognitive dysfunction or dumbness.
In Revelation 18: 23 the voice of the bridegroom and the bride is heard no more in Babylon, the metaphoric concept for being in false doctrines and not having the mind of Christ or his light, and including the corruption of the world, which is partly brought on because the Christians have lost their light and their savour. The bride of Christ does not speak within Babylon because the elect are not in Babylon.
The voice of the bridegroom is heard no more in Babylon, within the camp, because Christ is out in the metaphoric wilderness, outside the camp (Hebrews 13: 13), outside of Babylon. Christ is in the wilderness where in Revelation 12: 6, 14 the metaphoric woman flees. In Revelation 12: 15 the serpent casts out a flood from his mouth to carry away the metaphoric woman and her seed the remnant. But in Revelation 12: 17 the remnant is said to keep the commandments of God and to have the testimony of Jesus Christ. Keeping the commandments of God does not mean following the ceremonial law, but it means obeying Christ by following his doctrines. Since the remnant in the wilderness has the testimony of Christ, Christ speaks truth into their spirits and minds. And they have ears to hear him.
The tribulation period of judgment by God exists because of God's people falling away into false doctrines and being disobedient to the doctrines taught by Him. The tribulation during the Christian era can be seen as a type and re-enactment of the judgment of God upon physical Israel in the time Jeremiah wrote about Israel being led into false doctrines and practices by false prophets. Physical Israel was sent into a literal period of seventy years (Jeremiah 29: 10).. The falling away of II Thessalonians 2: 3 began many decades ago - in the 19th century. The beginning of the tribulation might be dated to sometime in the 20th century, keyed to the start of the abomination of desolation (Matthew 24: 15) in our time period, perhaps in the period right after World War II. It is a period much longer than the seven year dispensationalist tribulation.
A Resort to the Historicist View of Revelation 18: 23 To Oppose Any Prophecy of An Apostasy In Our Present Time
Posted : 22 Sep, 2013 11:14 AM
Matthew 16:27: Jesus says, "For the Son of Man is going to come in His Father's glory with His **ANGELS*, and **THEN** He will reward each person according to what he has done!!"
WE ARE ALL WAITING FOR THE NEW EARTH, THE NEW HEAVENS AND THE HEAVENLY NEW JERUSALEM!!
Revelation 21:1-5: Then I saw a New heaven and a New Earth, for the {present} first heaven and first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea. I saw the Holy City, the **NEW JERUSALEM**, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride beautifully dressed for her husband. And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, "Now the dwelling of God is with men, and He will live with them. They will be His people, and God Himself will be with them. They will be His people, and God Himself will be with them and be their God. He will wipe every tear from their eyes, There will be no more death or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away." He who was seated on the throne said, "I am making **EVERYTHING NEW**!" Then He said, "Write this down, for these words are TRUSTWORTHY and TRUE!"
2 Peter 3:10-13: But the Day of the Lord will come like a thief. The heavens will DISAPPEAR with a roar; the elements will be destroyed by fire, and the earth and *EVERYTHING* in it will be burned up {NIV}. Since everything will be destroyed in this way, what kind what kind of people ought you to be? You ought to live holy and godly lives as you wait eagerly for the Day of God to come. {NIV} That Day will bring about the destruction of the heavens by fire, and the elements will melt in the heat. But in keeping with His promise **WE** {Excluding the Preterists and the RC church} are looking forward to a New heavens and a New Earth, the home of righteousness.
Hebrews 11:13-16: All these people {Abraham, Sarah Isaac, Jacob, Noah etc} were still living by faith when they died. They did not receive the things promised; they only saw them from a distance. And they admitted that they were aliens and strangers on earth. People who say such things show they are looking for a country of their own. If they had been thinking of the country they had left, they would have had opportunity to return. Instead, they were looking for a BETTER COUNTRY--a HEAVENLY ONE. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God, for he has prepared a *CITY* (The *NEW JERUSALEM*} for them!!
Galatians 4:25,26: Now Hagar stands for Mount Sinai in Arabia and corresponds to the present city of Jerusalem, because she is in slavery with her children. But the **JERUSALEM** that is **ABOVE** is free, and she is our MOTHER !!
JESUS WILL WRITE ON US THE NAME OF THE CITY OF GOD THE *NEW JERUSALEM*!!
Revelation 2:18; 3:12,21: Jesus says, "To him who overcomes I will give him a white stone with a new name written on it, known only to him who receives it...And I will make a pillar in the temple of my God. Never again will he leave it. I will write on him the name of the City of My God, the NEW JERUSALEM, which is coming down out of heaven from My God....And I will give the right to sit with Me on My throne, just as I overcame and sat down with My Father on His throne."
According to Revelation 22:3 the only 2 thrones in the New Jerusalem will be the thrones of the Father and of the Lamb Jesus Christ.
