I want to apologize for what I said about your seeking God's will for the forum topics. I wish I could erase my last message to you. I do have strong life-long beliefs about the topic; I just felt like I was under attack for these beliefs. Please forgive me. I'm still learning about the "Chat Forum", and when I am out-numbered on my comments, I take defensive action. Something that I grew up believing has become a part of who I am as a Christian.
I came directly to you, since you were the first to write about it, and I'm sorry. I should not have singled you out, and I should have taken all the comments as the way that others believe, instead of taking it personally.
I have certainly learned something through all of this. I should not assume that Satan is behind the disagreements. Thank you for all the good topics that you have given.
:prayingf:First, because I am one of those with an opposing position, and hoping I wasn't making you feel attacked. It isn't personal; just opinions and it doesn't effect our eternal destiny which is based on faith and belief in Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior.
:prayingf:Second, Deborah has moved on by the leading of the LORD, so, she won't be responding. The daughter in your previous comment was her's: a very faithful, courageous, and loving young woman. I believe they were valuable, additions to the forum. In many ways, I will miss deborah and was sorry to see her leave.
:prayingf:Third, I didn't want you suffering, thinking perhaps you have done something. Wondering, if you caused a silence...
Please forgive me, if I am over stepping on this one. My heart is to help you and bring healing on this area. I am just thinking how I would feel and what comforting words could be spoken.:prayingf:
I believe if we sin willingly after we accept Christ and do not repent sincerely from the heart,we will suffer the consequences of our actions. God is not mocked. The soul that sinneth--- it shall die. Please don't let the devil lull you into a false sense of security. The wages of sin is death whether it is commited by a sinner or a Christian------it does not matter---- no sin will enter into Heaven.Are you saved and continue to sin? The Lord may come in an hour when you think not.If a godly man turns away, and dies in his sins, he will not enter in. God will not turn His back on us, but many have fallen by the wayside and turned their back on Him.
Did Deborahe have a chance to read the apology I wrote this morning before she decided to go off the site? I hope so; I am very sorry if my comments added to her decision. Please send her word about the apology, if she didn't read it.
You had nothing to do with deborahe leaving. She chose to do so on Aug.6th. I know the date because she said goodbye. She thought well of you. She spoke of you in a poem in suggest new topics---- Center stage- poetry. If you haven't read it yet, I think you will be blessed by it. hedgedweller is mentioned too.
I am relieved to hear that Deborahe had made the decision to leave this site before yesterday's forum. Thanks for sharing that with me. I become miserable if/when I think that I have hurt someone's feelings.
In order to understand the new testament you have to understand the old testament. In the old testament to be right with God you had to offer an animal sacrifice. At that point you paid the price but the price you paid did not purchase salvation. It wasn't a free gift and yet you didn't earn it. Paul calls it a "reward". You had 100% of salvation at the moment of the sacrifice. The works that you were required to do after that(paying your tithe, honoring your parents, keeping the sabath, etc.) did NOTHING towards obtaining salvation(only bloodshed did) yet they were required to do these other works so that they didn't lose eternal salvation. If they continued in willful sin it says that there was no sacrifice that they could make that would take away willful sin thereby losing their salvation. In other words, there remained no more sacrifice for sins. Isn't that odd, those are the exact words spoken in Heb. 6 & 10. If we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth there remains no more sacrifice for sins. People that make the statement, "If works have anything to do with it then it's not a gift" prove that they are ignorant of the old testament and how God looks at works. If works(i.e. obeying God, doing the Father's will, etc.) have anything to do with obtaining salvation in the N.T. then they would in the O.T. If they did in the O.T. then that would mean that they wouldn't have 100% of salvation when they offered their animal sacrifice but would have to do the rest of the required works(keeping the sabbath, etc.) before salvation was granted to them. So here you can see how God looks at works. You are not justified by works at all to receive salvation in the N.T. but by faith alone. You are justified by "FAITH AND WORKS" to continue in it. James 2:24 says "By works a man is justified and NOT by faith only". Yet just before that he shows that Abraham received the free gift of eternal salvation by believing(faith) only with no works involved whatsoever. Yet he wouldn't have been justified to continue in the free gift unless he did works. "Was not our father Abraham justified by works.... so you see then how that by works a man is justified and not by faith only". We are saved by grace through faith, yet we can "fall from grace". If we fall from grace (that we receive by faith) then it's because our faith is invalid. Our faith is invalid if we don't do the will of the father. In other words, when we decide to disobey and continue in willfull sin. So you have to obey God (works)and not continue in willfull sin for your faith to be valid so you can obtain grace by which you are saved. God's gifts are irrevocable. Grace is God's favor that is His gift to us that is unmerrited. Yet it can stop and we are no longer a recipient of it. Salvation is the same way. All the salvation that we have partaken of up until we fall from grace He doesn't take back but He just doesn't bestow any more upon us.
Welcome to the discussion forums, interesting perspective on the works and faith. Found this just to copy and paste,
James 2:12-18, TEV - 12 Speak and act as people who will be judged by the law that sets us free. 13 For God will not show mercy when he judges the person who has not been merciful; but mercy triumphs over judgement. 14 My brothers and sisters, what good is it for people to say that they have faith if their actions do not prove it? Can that faith save them? 15 Suppose there are brothers or sisters who need clothes and don�t have enough to eat. 16 What good is there in your saying to them, �God bless you! Keep warm and eat well!��if you don�t give them the necessities of life? 17 So it is with faith: if it is alone and includes no actions, then it is dead. 18 But someone will say, �One person has faith, another has actions.� My answer is, �Show me how anyone can have faith without actions. I will show you my faith by my actions.�
Previously, I stated I don't believe in "Once saved always saved" . I realize it is a very strongly, believed doctrine in many denominations. Truly ones I have attended, served, support, appreciate and agree with on so many other things.
First, I seriously searched the scriptures and couldn't find it anywhere. It is such a small statement. If it were true, wouldn't the LORD have put it in there to clear any confusion. But He did put that statement about pre-destination; which does totally bog my mind.
I suppose it is time for me to get those verses. Better get like the woman who lost her coin (BUSY) but I have several to find.
Second, there is a verse in the gospels, after the church people (I guess) say a bunch of, "Did we not..."s that Jesus says: "Get away from me you workers of iniquity I never new you." I don't want to be in that group.
Secondly: lord, lorders Matt 7:21-23 Luke 13:24-27
Third, the Lukewarm church gets vomited out and thrown into the lake of fire in the book of Revelation. I hope to not be in that group.
Thirdly: lukewarm Rev 3:16 vomit but no lake of fire (sorry my mistake)
Fourth, Paul was concerned that after he preach the gospels to others he would be disqualified.
Fourth: disqualified 1 Cor 9:27
Fifth, there is a reference perhaps in Hebrews about tasting the glory and sinning. I think it is trampling the blood of Christ under your feet. The word compares it to Esau giving up his inheritance for that soup...
Fifth: Hebrews 6:4-8 Hebrews 10:26-31 Hebrew 12:15-17 *** these are real important****
Sixth, there are the lists of people who continue to sin in the NT and are members of the church not inheriting the Kingdom.
Sixth: no kingdom lists 1 cor 6:9-10 Gal 6:19-21; Eph 5:3-6; Rev 21:8
Seventh, "God is not mocked" "Those who sow to the spirit will inherit eternal life" And those who sow to the flesh destruction. "work out your own salvation in fear and trembling"
Seventh: Sow and reap destruction? Gal 6:7-8 working salvation Phil 2:12-17
This is just the reasons or path, I followed to get my belief about the topic.
BTW If you are correct my concerns, don't matter because "once saved always saved" My flesh really likes the idea, I want to quote Jesus "burden being easy and light" but then I wouldn't be being true to my conviction on this topic.
It's been a long time since I've been in the forums, so I would like to say Hi to Deborahe, Susie, Robin, and all that are apart of the forums and God's family. I have missed you all. Stay blessed in the Lord. Now, I haven't posted in a while, but this subject is very exciting for me, so here's my view on this, I have two posts for this. Love in Christ, Will
�Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not. Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is. And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure. Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law. And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin. Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him. Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.�
According to the Apostle Paul, there are three types of people in this world, and they are natural men and women, "people who have never received Jesus Christ. They are sinners by nature and by practice, they are dead in their sins and have no knowledge of God.� Next there are carnal men and women, "this is the man or woman who has received Jesus as their savior, and believes that Christ died on the cross for them, and believes that he or she has been made a child of God. But, listen carefully, we never know they are a child of God because although they are saved by the blood of Jesus, they live just like natural men and women. They live addicted to the flesh, to the world and to self. They cannot discern the fruit of the Spirit or any pursuit of holiness, but we must not ever call them an unregenerate, unsaved man or woman because they have accepted Jesus. It is true, they are saved from hell but is not yet saved from themself. And so the carnal man or woman is saved but still living like they was not saved." And lastly, there are spiritual men and women, "the man or woman who has not only been saved, but the one who has received Christ as their Lord after they have received him as their Savior. They have learned how to walk in the Spirit and we can see real evidence of Jesus Christ living out his life in them. Which are you?
Dear brothers and sisters, there is in our day a teaching that has become very popular, and has negated the clear implications of 1 John 3. Therefore, I am taking this time because this thing is so deeply inwrought, I feel there is nothing but the pure authority of the Word of God, reading it, looking at it, doing it, that will transform and renew our minds and hearts. This message may shock you and shake you. Honestly, it was made to! But do not be angry or afraid to read on, each word is set forth in love, so we can examine our own spiritual standing in the light of God' s Word. Therefore "Examine yourselves, whether you be in the faith... prove your own selves." I am asking you as we come to the word of God to come with a teachable, childlike spirit, come like the Bereans who will search the scriptures to see whether these things are so. Only the dishonest fear the truth, so we shall search these things in an attitude of prayer and ask God to help us, lend us an �ear� so that we may be one minded, as we embark upon this study which is not pleasant, but which is absolutely necessary for our soul's well being.
"There is therefore now no condemnation to them who are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the spirit. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus made us free from the law of sin and death. For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God, sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: that the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit. For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God. But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now, if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.�
Pray with me: Father, we thank you that your word is truth. We praise you, that by comparing scripture with scripture, and that having an open heart and a teachable spirit, the Holy Spirit will lead us into all truth. We pray as we seek to deal with this problem and this confusion in the church that the Holy Spirit himself shall be present to be our teacher and to cause us to see thy truth, and by your grace to bow beneath it's implication. In Jesus' name, Amen.
Of all the churches Paul wrote to, the church that got more of Paul's attention than any other church was the church at Corinth. The church at Corinth was a very carnal, out of order church and because of the immorality and corruption in Corinth, the church could not differentiate between the things of God and the things of the world. In fact, Paul said these carnal men and women subsist on milk, they haven't graduated to solid food yet. They are spiritual babies because they don't have the capacity to feed themselves spiritual food; they have to be spoon-fed by someone else. Hebrews 5:11 says they "have become dull of hearing," with the word "dull" translated as hard-headed, like a mule, meaning they were stubborn, refusing to learn and apply the truth of God.
Paul pointed out many errors in the church at Corinth, and gave them Spiritual guidance as how to correct their errors and establish order, after which he revealed many Spiritual truths concerning God's Kingdom and His Kingdom people. Paul wanted to establish a vision for what the Corinthians could expect from God, but first they had to get their eyes off the moral corruption around them in the world and unto Christ. Paul informed the Corinthians: "If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable." By this, Paul was assuring the Corinthians there was more to their life in Christ than their daily existence.
Thus, this applies to the body of Christ today, which has also become morally and spiritually corrupt. The church today is more carnal than spiritual. Much division exists and many walk as sensual men and women instead of being Spiritually led by the Holy Spirit. Even though many have been saved for a period of time, they've had little to no spiritual development during that time. Many still commit the same old sins, they still refuse to think biblically, they still refuse to relate to God as God demands, but yet, they are in the same old seats every Sunday morning. Today, we the church has so focused on the lust of the eyes, the lust of the flesh, and the pride of life, that many have lost their way, their truth, and their life. By that I mean, we have lost our vision of God's coming Kingdom, no longer knowing the way to the Father and because of this we have become most miserable.
As we meditate on this, 1 John 3:9 states �Whosoever is born of God do not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.� Thus, a man or woman saved by the grace of God will be a holy man or woman. A man saved from the penalty of his sin will be a man who seeks day by day to walk from the defilement of sin. However, there are many in the church convinced that they are saved but they have never been transformed. Many of us ignorantly believe this, and have managed to somehow deceive ourselves into believing that we can receive Jesus without undergoing a moral reformation. That it is possible to have Christ dwell in our bosom by faith and still not experience what the Bible calls a new creation. By this I mean not a religious experience, but a walk in conformity to the will
and commandments of God.
There are men and women who are convinced in their own thinking that they are the children of God but they are people who seem to be at home in the realm of sin. They will confess that there is sin and failure in their lives, but they do this without any grief. They are gullible to claim in the promise of forgiveness to those who confess. 1 John 1:9. I would rather die crying out against this and be called a fool and a failure in the eyes of my generation than to ever preach that a man can enter into heaven who loves his sin. And dear brothers and sisters, my heart yearns for many of you reading this, because you have heard this doctrine, and you believe it and cling to it. And you are never going to get saved until you are ready to relinquish it, and God will meet you.
Now, I plead with you, brothers and sisters, father and mother, if you are not pressing on in the path of holiness, if you are content with your present measure of grace, you've better beware. Listen to me �parents,� your children made a decision back when they were little children, yet you don't see any evidence of the new birth, yet you have been breathing kind of easy and say, 'oh well, they aren't going on as they ought but they have accepted Jesus.' Is this true of you? If your children die today and they wake up in hell, and you're not concerned about them, and you are not pleading to God for them because you believe a damnable heresy that they are saved but they are just carnal?
I'm not scolding you. It is what we have been taught, but now we have no further reason to believe it. Many �parents� have believed it willingly because we've deceived ourself, and if we know that if our children don't have the real thing, then we are going to have to confess we don't have it because we don't have any more than they've got. And why do the �parents� believe this? We dare not say our children aren't saved because they bear as much fruit as we do. Does this strike fear to your heart? It does mine. Can I be real here for a moment, as a believer, and parent �I want my daughter to grow up knowing that until she is in the way of holiness she is not a Christian. I want her to know she cannot get in that way until she is born again, I want her to know that it is by grace. But I don't want to raise a child who thinks she is saved because she has nodded her head to what her daddy believed and taught. I want a girl who knows by the revelation of the Holy Ghost and faithful preaching of the Word, that until the Holy Ghost has sanctified her heart and has given her a heart that is holy she has no ground to claim she is saved.
I want you to notice and get it now, a few things from Romans 8. Paul contrasts two things constantly, the realm of the flesh and the realm of the Spirit. The carnal mind and the spiritual mind, and notice what he says. These two are mutually exclusive; now look at verse 5. "They that are after the flesh, they mind the things of the flesh, fleshly desire, fleshly longings. Those that are after the Spirit, the things of the Spirit" Carnally minded = death, a man who is given over to his natural appetites and to the flesh, the end of that is death. The end of the Spiritually minded man, life and peace. The carnal mind is at warfare with God, it is not subject to God, it cannot be. They that are in the flesh cannot please God. But many say, that's referring to the man who is saved but who is still living in the flesh, and he can't please God in that state.' Is it now? Look at verse 9, "But ye are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. But if any man hath not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his."
Do you know what Paul is saying? He says a man or woman who is living in the realm of the flesh cannot please God. If his basic desires and interests are this life and this flesh he can't please God. But Paul says this isn't true of you "IF" the Holy Ghost dwells in you, and when you got saved he came to dwell in you. And if he hasn't come to dwell in you, you are none of his. But he has come, we have been basically taken out of the realm of flesh and we have been put in the realm of Spirit, See? I don't know if you do, but this excites me. There is carnally minded � death, or spiritually minded -life. Now, Paul moves on in verse 13, if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die. 'That means the sin unto death!' Again, does it now? The most spiritual people we know die, but this is not speaking about physical death, rather it's talking about spiritual death! If we live after the flesh ye shall die. But if by the Spirit ye do mortify, or put to death the deeds of the flesh ye shall live. (For) as many as are led by the Spirit of God they (and only they) are the sons of God.
Ah, but does this mean a Christian never stumbles?' Wait a minute now, let's get this first. Conversion is a change of masters. We exchange the master, sin, for the new master Christ, who will work out in us the path of righteousness. And what is the fruit? The fruit is unto holiness, and the end everlasting life. No man gets everlasting life but in the pathway of holiness, and no man can be holy until he is converted and has a change of masters by the grace of God. Isn't that what the book says? But we've read it this way. 'But I accepted Jesus, even though I am serving the flesh, and I have my fruit unto Carnal Christianity, and in the end the loss of a few rewards.'
Now, as a friend amongst friends, slow down and ask yourself: Is what I want worth Christ dying for? What I am saying here is: If we profess to truly follow the Lord Jesus, we will heed His words about Scripture; "To the law and the testimony; if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them" (Is.8:20). "Search the Scriptures; for in them you think you have eternal life; and they are they which testify of me". (John 5:39) - for there is a way that seems right to a man but the end of it is the way of death." (Prov. 14: 12) Will you go on believing and confessing you are a Christian while you are at home in the realm of sin? Will you go on professing to know Jesus Christ as your savior, though you have never bowed to him as your Lord? Then brother and sister, unless God awakens you and turns you from that course you will go right on believing those things and go right on to judgment and out into eternity a lost soul.
And with that, I am going to close with this exhortation. God wants us to cast aside everything that keeps us from Him. God wants us to get right with Him! If you invite God to change your heart, He will faithfully administer grace and forgiveness. Regardless of what many have believed, �he that is born of God does not make a practice of sin, he is never at home in the realm of sin.� Because the Divine Seed is at work within him, and if he is in sin as a child of God, if he stumbles, he feels unclean and disturbed until he is back in the way of holiness, he has an advocate with the Father if he stumbles. Yes, if any man sin we have an advocate with the Father Jesus Christ, the Righteous, but that is for the man whose basic desire is to walk in the Light, walk in obedience and in all these other new birthrights that John described. The child of God is one indwelt by the Spirit, and that indwelling severs him from the flesh. Those possessing the fruit of the Spirit, those who belong to Jesus, are basically committed to this.
And so, I ask that we, soberly reflect upon our own heart and ask ourselves this question? Am I at home in the realm of sin? Am I at ease in my present state? Having made a trip to an altar one, seven, or ten years ago, have I breathed easy ever since I've done the familiar ritual? Have I made my almighty decision, therefore God must take me to heaven? Dear brothers and sisters, what a great damnable lie. If we really are people of faith then we also are separated. That is what holiness is: Separation from the world unto God. Being separate means that we no longer belong to the world. We have a new Master. He has replaced the old ways with new ways, the old thought with new thoughts, the old values with new values. We no longer lie and manipulate and deceive one another. We don't take stuff from anybody without permission, we don't live in another's home and bring our own drama and strive. We show mercy to others and rescue those in spiritual ruin. Being separate means that we speak differently. We use our tongue to bless rather than curse, to encourage rather than belittle the efforts of others, to speak well of another rather than criticize or slander. Being separate means that we are no longer proud or haughty, but are prepared to take a sober view of ourselves, seeing others as better and treating them that way.
Are you Christ's? Do you belong to him? Then demonstrate that the flesh and the vile affections have been crucified, and that the fruit of the Spirit is manifest. But oh, sometimes in our life I know it is hard and mushy fruit and at times there is even some rotten apples hanging on the tree. Brothers and sisters, if there is nothing but rotten apples on the tree of your life then you need to hear what Jesus said. �Make the tree good and it's fruit good, or the tree corrupt and the fruit corrupt for a tree is known by it's what? By it's fruit.�
If we are to know the truth, if we desire to come to a true knowledge of God, may God grant that today, recognizing the error of our ways, we might cry out unto God for mercy for us and those who turn the grace of God into a license for their sins, and turn the blood of Jesus into an excuse to carry out their rebellion against God without any fear of punishment.
