PRedestianting those that He forknew is not the same as just choosing and maing it happen
Posted : 1 Mar, 2012 08:15 PM
I am sick to death of arguing about predestination!
scripture plainly states who was predestinanted, the ones who were predestinanted are the ones God forknew, forknew what? well He forknew that they would believe and accept Jesus Christ as Lord, so that is exactly opposit of what calcinist say, they say God just randomly picked people for no apparnet reason and gave them faith , let me quote an article that holdingoutforhope posted earlier
so that he chooses precisely him whom he foreknew would believe in him; and to him he gives the Holy Spirit, so that by doing good works he will as well attain eternal life.
Now thats from an article that is suposed to be arguing against armainiens
let me clear the air, armainiens or let me say I am well aware I didnt save myself, I am sick of the smugg comments that imply we think we save ourselfs, we know jesus did the work at the cross and his blood is what saves us through faith
as a matter of fact we know that we dont choose God we know that we dont choose to get saved, we know that God puts a call on you and draws you to him before you can ever even begin to think of becoming saved, we know that within our own hearts we would never choose God, this is a fact and we are aware!
The only thing that we differ on is the fact that we can chose to reject the call of God, thats it thats the one thing and I reject the notion that God doesnt do anything according to what men do!thats ludacris
in the book of jonah God caled Jonah to go to nineveh, but jonah didnt want to we all kow the story about jonah and the fish!
But think about this in the end Jonah did go to nineveh to preach what the Lord told hin topreach, it doesnt ever say exactly what the lord said to preach but what it does say is that Jonah told the people of nineveh that in fourty days they would be over thrown!
But the people of nineveh repented and God spared them, based on Jonahs reluctant and late obedience God spared 100,000 people and many cattle!
Now God told Jonah obviously that nineveh would be overthrown he told jonah to tell them that they would be over thrown
If God did not intend to destroy or have the city overthrown allow it to e overthrown or whatever then that would make God a liar and we know he is not a liar!
In the end of the story its obvious that God repented from bring punishment on nineveh as a result of jonah preaching to them and their repentence,
Isnt that an example of God planing on destroy someone who isnt saved and wont repent and then that person hearing the word and we know faith comes buy hearing , and then they repented and God also repented from his wrath?
I mean does that sound like the calvinist god that just decides how things are going to be and makes them that way? I dont thnk so God gave nineveh a choice and he also gave jonah a choice, granted jonah had some strong encouragment, but while in the fishes belly he repented as well and agreed to be obedient
so faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word!
If nineveh had not repented if they had cntined in their wickedness then they would have been destroyed!
IF
IF
IF
But God had mercy on them, it was his intention to destroy them
IF!
I already know that there are a million expalnations for the example I have found that supports my point of veiw and I dont really care I am not trying to argue as some others are and like some others think I am!
HEre is what I know, I know beyond a shadow of a doubt that I had a choice when I got saved, I most certainly could have chosen to continue to rebel and turn my back. I had been doign it for years !
I also know that God choosing those that he forknew would come to repentence is not predestination as the calivinists state it, predestination is based onGod forknowing what we will do.
If never not one time sayd God predestinanted those hat he just decided he wanted to save
It says he predestianted those that he forknew (would come to repentence) thats all ther is to it, so quote that scripture all you want to read it over and over you are only making my case for me!
Go knows who will and who wont choose him, that makes much more sence that he just decides who will and wont choose him
furthermore and I have said this before
Gods soverignty afords him the right and the power to give us a choice, His soverginty does not put him inside of a box where he cant make the rules as he wants to,God sets the rules and he wants us to want to choose him!
Saying we cant choose hi becasue it takes his soverignty is small minded and that satement in itself takes away Gods soverginty!
HE can set the rules as he wishes and its his wish that we choose him, or shall I say that we have a choice, he actuly does the choosing he calls us but we certainlky have an opportunity to reject the calling!
If we didnt have that choice to actuly reject or heed Gods call onour hearts then whats the point in any of it? Why ouldnt He just take those he chose right on up to heaven and forget all this life, isnt that the goal? If he is just choosing people randomly or not randomly but just choosing on a whim at his disgretion then whats the point in this life?
Isnt it at least possible that God has set the rules up in such a way that he calls onour heart an woos us showing us that he is good but we still have the ultimate choice toreject him if we so decide to?
I am goingt o say this again I t really ticks me off when they say we think we save ourself, that is a gross misstatement! No one thinks they save their self all we kow is if we wanted to continue inouir rebelion God would not stop us, and he would until a point contine to deal with us until he either turns us over to a reprebate mind, we die, or we finaly give in and repent and take up our cross and follow him!
Please I dont want to argue I am so sick of arguing!
This is the only thing that makes sence I dont even think its all armainien I think armaniens and calvinists are both wrong, I think the truth is in the middle somewhere but neither side will admit that the otherone has any truth to it at al and thats pride I admit calvinism has some truth to it, but its no all truth someolf it is garbage, and the same with armainins so e truth some garbage! I am not too proud to admit when I am wrong or admit I stil have things to learn but I do not want to argue and I do not ever respond well to someone aproaching with wioth a i am right and you are wrong atitude!
again I am awasre without the ativity of the holy spirit in my life I could never be saved, I admit God has to call someone OI admit that Jesus died for the ones God knew would get saved! But God did not just choose wil nilly whom he would saved he predestinated those he forknew thats it , those that he forknew those are the ones Jesus died for , all that measn is God knew who would and wouldnt accept and those are theones Jesus died for, but each and every person that would have chosen Jesus could have been in that catagory its a matter of God nowing they wouldnt
If they werent going to choose christ its not even worth discussing its a mute point becaus the bllod cant be for someone who wont ever have faith but if they had of had faith then the blood would have been for them, if they didnt choose to heed the call that is their fault not Gods choice!
PS we sin becasue we are born sinners not the opposit of being sinners becasue we sin,
we are all born with the exact same condition and the exact same opportunity , the reason we are predestianted is that God knew what we would do in advance becasue well duh he is God and he knows the begining from the end it doesnt mena he drwew a name out of a hat!
So now that I have repeated myself about 5 times I will end this ranting
Stil dont want to argue with anyone I amsick of arguing its getting old to the point of I amabout to bow out of the forums
PRedestianting those that He forknew is not the same as just choosing and maing it happen
Posted : 1 Mar, 2012 09:46 PM
"for what doing exactly? Does scripture say that God did my repenting for me? does it say god had my godly sorow?."
I'll do you one better. Scripture says that even your faith was a gift. "For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God," Ephesians 2:8...It's ALL of God. Anything good you do in life is all of grace and all of God.
"Where exactly does godly sorrow come in , in the calvinixt veiw, I mean if you cant relaly repent and you cant choose the right, then why the godklt sorrow, why is ther 2 different kinds of sorow, (i am asuming you know enough of scripture to be familure with the 2 types of sorrow) whats the point in prayer if ther is nothing we can do and God cant be swayed becasue he has already decided everything from the foundations of the earth, then why does anyone pray for the souls of the lost, am I crazy or are we to be praying for the lost and preahing to the lost"
You do understand that the reformed view is that God gives you a new heart correct? Having that new heart, there is no contradiction with Godly sorrow. Btw, the question on prayer is one you have to ask yourself as well. That has nothing to do with salvation and you yourself believe God to be sovereign so I'm interested in your answer to the question as well.
"why on earth would God waste my time preaching to the lost and praying for the lost if they have no chance unless they ae elcet and if they are elect it doesnt matte becasue they are going tocome around no matter what becasue God decided it form the begining He doesnt need help with that right? Why wouldnt I be spenign my time doing fund raisres for cancer pacitenst and volontering with the elderly instead of preaching to and praying for the lost if God has all of that worked out without me?"
Again, this is not a an issue just for the Calvinist. God knows who will have faith and who won't so why would God allow you to waste your time preaching to someone who won't have faith? It works both ways. My answer is that God has ordained that the way in which his message gets to people is by the preaching of the gospel. There is no problem here for the Calvinist.
"hey what about the scripture that says Gods wod never comes back void?"
What about it? There is no problem here either. What doesn't hold water is your interpretation of Romans 8:28
PRedestianting those that He forknew is not the same as just choosing and maing it happen
Posted : 1 Mar, 2012 09:55 PM
Yes I believ in Gods complete soeignty, unlike calivinsits I believe God reserves the right to change his mind, based on the please of his people
for instance and tis is a hypothetical example
just supose my daughter isnt saved, but I have been a faithful and good servent of the Lord for many years, and since God has promised me the desires of my heart, its my desire that She be saved, but she is ungodly and rebelious, I believe that God can decide to save her whenever he wants to, even if it ws never his intention to, based on my prayers and please to him to save her becasue I love her so very much and he loves me and wants to give me that desire!
Thats His perogitive!
UMM and Yes God word coming back void has everything to do with salvation just not my salvation. I told you if I am preaching to gospel to a so called non elect then if ther is no chance for life then nothing has happend
since faith comes buy hearing and the non elect has heard but cant have faith, then that would be Gods word returning void!
PRedestianting those that He forknew is not the same as just choosing and maing it happen
Posted : 1 Mar, 2012 09:58 PM
BTW being sorrowful is doing something and goldly sorrow is needful for repentence, amd what about the cross you have to take up your cross isnt that doign soemthign? OH my are you saving yourself if you take up your cross, you did something if you do, wouldnt want to save myself!
PRedestianting those that He forknew is not the same as just choosing and maing it happen
Posted : 1 Mar, 2012 10:00 PM
"NO I am not a liar, you posted that article I coppied it when I foirst read it and saved it I amnot going back to re read all that junk you posted just to prove to you that yu posted it,"
You claimed the reformed author of the article stated something he did not say in the same way you claim it. That is a lie. You won't even prove it to the kind people watching. You won't even post the link.
"and I said I dont care what your intentions were becasue my point is you posted what you thought refuted what I said but it didnt , that qoute proved what I was saying all along"
The quote proved nothing. You simply quoted something that stated your view. Is that what passes for proof these days?
"
further more how is it, that I can say that the scriptue here implys that its the ones God forknew would choose him, but you can say the world is not the whole world but either part of the world or its the actula dirt that God loved?"
Two entirely different things my dear...You said the word said something it didn't say. Basic grammar tells you that God foreknew them, not something they were going to do. As to the world issue, we have numerous examples of different meanings for the word world, and in the other thread I showed why your definition did not stand.
"and you can say its notr al but some of all"
No all means all, but it can be a particular all...like all of a kind
"and you can say its not whoselver but its eveyr one that God already chose.."
I'm guessing you didn't read the other thread. If you did, you would know that my interpretation of John 3:16 is NOT, everyone that God already chose. The text says he died for everyone believing. It does not say anyone can believe.
"you change it where you see fit?"
Not at all
"you think you know so much but well if you know anything about scripture then you know what it says about your own understanding!"
No I don't, I just believe myself to be right in this instance. I'm not sure why you can't separate the two. Believing I'm right on an issue is not equal to believing I know so much. We have seen you several times try to make scripture fit your belief instead of letting it speak for itself.
"You want to believe that God just picked you out and saved you and you have no resposibility because thats the easy ay out"
No I believe all are evil sinners and it's an act of great love and grace that any are saved. You again misunderstand the reformed view...it eliminates all boasting. And yes you are correct it eliminates all effort...opposite of that is a salvation of works, which you are defending.
"but Jesus aid take up your cross and follow him"
Yes, you believe you have that power within yourself. Men are dead in trespasses. How can a dead man take up a cross and follow Christ?
PRedestianting those that He forknew is not the same as just choosing and maing it happen
Posted : 1 Mar, 2012 10:05 PM
"OK isnt that the same hings as what i said, if one loves God the he is nown by God .. but its no even plausible for us to have loved God before the foundations of the earth.."
So, this is all you got out of those verses? I showed you where the word know often has nothing to do with "knowledge of" but rather speaks specifically to love or affection towards someone.
"that scripture again is oppoisit of what you are saying, you ae saying it was Gods choice but that scriputre right there says if we love him the he knows us"
No it doesn't...It's saying if we love him we are known by him. It doesn't say He knows us after we love him. Either way it proves my point because the know, refers to a person he has affection towards
PRedestianting those that He forknew is not the same as just choosing and maing it happen
Posted : 1 Mar, 2012 10:19 PM
So yur salvation isnot one that you can boast about huh?
Not like mine thats one of works? HUH?
the entire statement you made regaurding that was orideful acusitory and boasting about how much greater you are and how your salvation os right and I am worng I can almost here the school yard na na na na in your voice , so back off
youi dont know onething about me, but you think you know alot. If youknew half of what you think you know about me you would be an expert on Elisha, but you dont so ont act like you do!
I know full well and remeber the day when God picked me up out of my bed and drug me to a church house, where I REPENTED becasue godly sprrpw took over, its a covenanant
do you know anyting at all about covnnenats
When Jesus said behold I stand at the door and knock ...
then he said he will sup with him??
THat a covenant and it takes 2 to have a covenant and there are 2 sides to a covenant there is not a one sided covenant
thats all ter is to it, it has nothing to do with what I did or what you think I think Idid, and everything to do with God made a covenenat with me, but I have a responisility to my end of it, period!
Jesus still said to tkae up your cross thats a condition of the covenatant
I am tired I have to work for a lving I am finished withthis converstaion as I have said before its useless as every aspec of it and every possible debate about this subject has been had 100 times over
bot one lsat thing you should think about young man, youare aweful proud of how right you are and very proud about how you have learned the right doctrine and I am so wrong??
that doesnt ssound like humilty at all every time you say something like you did in the last post it proves yur hear to me, this is my last ost I am done with this completlky stupid waste of time not to mention siting up late depriving myself of aleep to be cut down and attacted picked apart by someone I dont even know and doesnt even know me, how zstuoid
you will do well to watch wat you say about me, as pj has said many many times you dont touch God anoited! and yu dont have the first clue what I havebeen anoited to do
dont let my dyslexia and my messed up hands wrists and fingers that cause typoes to fool you , I have been called and anoited by God,
further more it woul.d do you well to act like anyone you speak to is possibly God anoited, you never ever know, i am finished with this
PRedestianting those that He forknew is not the same as just choosing and maing it happen
Posted : 1 Mar, 2012 10:20 PM
"OK number one I want to clear somethingup, Donna just about never offends me, so your notion that me being ticked off by your doctrine is false, its your smugg attitude and your asumption that you know everything and I know nothing becasue i am an ignorant armainien and you are an all knowing person of the refoprmed faith that iritates me, just becasue I dont respond to all your many posts doesnt mean I havent been reading, so I haveseen your attitued already on here and let me say nobody ever likes aknow it all, and it rubs people the wrong way especialy me of jump street!"
This is highly hypocritical of you. Look at the thread and you will see you often telling me I am wrong and you are right. Is that because you think you are a know it all? Well using your same logic we'd have to say that. Believing I'm right about one issue, doesn't mean I think I know it all. You have to be able to distinguish the two.
"But its a reasonable asumption from scripture that God knows the outcome of everything He knows the heart of every man, he knows who would and wouldnt love him he knows who wil ebel and who will serve him, becasue he knows the beginig fronm the end and he knows the hearts of men, us being reasonable people with a mind God gave us isnt it a reasonable asumption that God would predesitinate the ones that He already knew would love him"
If other scriptures didn't teach against it, possibly. You still have the issue of God being the one who predestined. If God knew they were going to accept and that's how He made his decision, then how is that God predestining it to happen? The predestining is the cause, not the effect.
"but does it make sence to you that we would have a choice about everuthng else in life but this one ting God would change the parameers?"
I have a better question. Does it make sense to you that God is sovereign over everything else in life, but then He changes the parameters for salvation to where people say, God MUST offer it to all?
"CHOOSE LIFE!!!! so now how is it that we can choose life way back in that scripture that I would have to look u to give you chapter and verse but a simple search in BLB will help you find it if you dont believe me, how is it we can choose life in that scripture but we have no choice when it comes to repentence?"
The call from all of scripture is to choose life. The problem is nobody can. That's the whole point of the law...the law wasn't to save. Nobody could keep the law. The law was to show the impossibility of salvation...that it takes a supernatural work of God. "13 who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God." 1 John 1:13
"if you would use your reasoing skillis youwould see that is the only thing that makes semce!"
I trust the word over my reasoning skills any day. However I think I have shown with reason, why my side is more reasonable. The whole start of this thread is based on a bad grammar mistake.
"BUt you wont becasue its easier to put all the responisbilty on God and this way you have no choice in the matter so whatever happens happens"
It has nothing to do with what is easier. It's just what the word says.
"i mean whats the point oin that , we didnt have nothing to do with any of it, we didnt DO anything us DOING something would constitue us saving ourself so, we really shouldnt be getting a reward , a reward for what WE DIDNT DO ANYTHING BECSAUE WE CAN DO ANYTHING IF WE DO SOMETHING THEN WE HAVE SAVED OURSELF OR SAVED SOMEONE ELSE FOR THAT MATTER WHY WOULD WE GET A REWARD?? "
Heaven is a reward for what we did not do and could not earn.
PRedestianting those that He forknew is not the same as just choosing and maing it happen
Posted : 1 Mar, 2012 10:33 PM
I would say this last thng to you, I would have you to keep in mind when you are also calling me a liar and ect ect, that you are nearly a child in my eyes, not many years older thanmy own daughter, you have called me a liar and a hiprcrit in one thread and thats just off the op of my head, If you want to bang your head aginst the wal trying to change the minds of people who are surely born again christians, btw I believe in the new heart as well, then knock yourself out, its pointless and causes stife I now have very ill feelings towards you that didnt really begin until you called me liar, and I never lied, you posted that article if I mes read it then I apoligize I am old and tied and work a lot and when I read I fall asleep and lose my place but I shouldnt have to explain that to you, you have showed me no gracde at all but attaced me at aevery chance ,and evry time you acuse me of twisting scripture I can count 3 times you have twisted it, so lets just end this I love you and am trying really hard to see you like my lord does, its really hard when you act like na na na I am saved and your not! So do me a faor and please please hush you are iritating me and I am tired and this is even a stupid debate about something that doesnt matter, we are saved by faith period, in christ and his blood so all this stuff is not a requirement of salvation, just let it go agree to disagree.. which I already know yuo cant do that forcing people to believe hwt ayou do is the way of john calvin!
goddnight this is my lst post onthis thread so dont waste your time sayng anything else to me on it
PRedestianting those that He forknew is not the same as just choosing and maing it happen
Posted : 1 Mar, 2012 10:40 PM
"Yes I believ in Gods complete soeignty, unlike calivinsits I believe God reserves the right to change his mind, based on the please of his people"
If God knew his decision beforehand, did He change his mind? I believe in the complete sovereignty of God in everything including salvation. You believe that God CANNOT save unless a person DOES something. That's not sovereignty.
"I believe that God can decide to save her whenever he wants to"
How can he do this without her doing something?
"since faith comes buy hearing and the non elect has heard but cant have faith, then that would be Gods word returning void! "
His word not returning void means it will always accomplish HIS purpose. To take your interpretation then, every time you witness to someone one on one, they will become saved. The word can't return void right?
"BTW being sorrowful is doing something and goldly sorrow is needful for repentence, amd what about the cross you have to take up your cross isnt that doign soemthign? OH my are you saving yourself if you take up your cross, you did something if you do, wouldnt want to save myself! "
Explained already
"So yur salvation isnot one that you can boast about huh?"
Not at all. BUT in yours you DID SOMETHING, so you may boast :)
"Not like mine thats one of works? HUH?"
Well you keep saying you have to do something. That's why you keep repeating is it not? Works?
"the entire statement you made regaurding that was orideful acusitory and boasting about how much greater you are and how your salvation os right and I am worng I can almost here the school yard na na na na in your voice , so back off "
Your continued personal attacks are indicative of you not being able to handle the substance of the debate. I said I'm right, so you call me prideful. I say you're wrong and point out why and you call me accusatory. I say I'm right and you call it boasting. I say I'm right and you claim I am saying I'm much greater than you. My salvation is right? I don't even know what that means.
"youi dont know onething about me, but you think you know alot. If youknew half of what you think you know about me you would be an expert on Elisha, but you dont so ont act like you do!"
I only know what you have revealed in your words. I've simply pointed out the faulty reasoning in them. This debate has nothing to do with whether I know you or not. Please stick to the topic. You would like to keep taking the discussion back to you and me because you can't deal with the scripture on the matter.
"When Jesus said behold I stand at the door and knock ..."
Has nothing to do with a covenant...."Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and eat with him, and he with me." Revelation 3:20...Jesus is knocking on the door of a church building, not the door of a sinner's heart...
"I am tired I have to work for a lving I am finished withthis converstaion as I have said before its useless as every aspec of it and every possible debate about this subject has been had 100 times over "
I work for a living as well...just another personal attack by you...
Yes the debate has been had. Clearly in this thread, scripture is on one side and not the other. Maybe you should question why that is.
"bot one lsat thing you should think about young man, youare aweful proud of how right you are and very proud about how you have learned the right doctrine and I am so wrong??"
No ma'am...all glory to God for anything right I have learned.
"that doesnt ssound like humilty at all every time you say something like you did in the last post it proves yur hear to me, this is my last ost I am done with this completlky stupid waste of time not to mention siting up late depriving myself of aleep to be cut down and attacted picked apart by someone I dont even know and doesnt even know me, how zstuoid"
You're right. It doesn't sound like humility....because you are writing it for me. You aren't using my words...
"further more it woul.d do you well to act like anyone you speak to is possibly God anoited, you never ever know, i am finished with this"
I'm not sure whether the last few sentences were threats or what exactly.
One side in this thread and the others have constantly appealed to emotion and what they want God to be. The other has dealt from the scriptures. One side has gotten angry and given out personal attacks and the other has continued to point out the error in that thinking and tried to bring the focus back to the topic at hand. One has shown that the interpretation of foreknew does not mean that God foreknew something would happen. PJ is a big promoter of letting the word speak right? Well if you let the word speak, you cannot possibly come to the conclusion that it is saying God foreknew they would do something. It is clearly saying God foreknew THEM. As this was the whole purpose of the thread, I think we can bring the thread to a close now satisfied that scripture has won out thanks to the grace of God :)
PRedestianting those that He forknew is not the same as just choosing and maing it happen
Posted : 1 Mar, 2012 10:56 PM
"I would say this last thng to you, I would have you to keep in mind when you are also calling me a liar and ect ect, that you are nearly a child in my eyes, not many years older thanmy own daughter, you have called me a liar and a hiprcrit in one thread and thats just off the op of my head"
You chose not to deal with the scripture on the issue and you posted a quote that I was never given by my side as a defense and called if "proof" that your side was true. Your posting of that verse and saying it was used of a reformed believer to prove Calvinism is a lie. I'm sorry. I don't mean to hurt you...that's just what it is. I called you a hypocrite because you've done the very things in this thread that I have done. However when you claim to be right, I don't call you all knowing. When you claim my beliefs don't hold water, I don't say you are arrogant. Yes that is hypocritical of you. Again, I don't mean to be mean, but as you say, facts are facts.
"If you want to bang your head aginst the wal trying to change the minds of people who are surely born again christians"
That's not the reason. The reason is because truth is important and I desire that God gets ALL the glory for His actions.
"you posted that article if I mes read it then I apoligize I am old"
That's perfectly fine but you didn't read the whole article. You merely took a quote out that was meant to represent your view and claimed it was supposed to represent my view. You should have never done that. I forgive you though.
"you have showed me no gracde at all but attaced me at aevery chance"
I merely showed where your reasoning is off and your interpretation of scripture and then I was met with personal attacks. Yes some of my attacks were personaly, but I was trying to get you to see that you did lie and you wer being hypocritical.
"and evry time you acuse me of twisting scripture I can count 3 times you have twisted it,"
You can count it...you just can't show it. This is consistent with arminian attacks..."Calvinists always twist scripture to fit their doctrine"...yet when the scripture is broken down, it the the arminian side that cannot stand. If you can count em, you should show them. After all, there are people reading these threads and you should be able to point out error.
"so lets just end this I love you and am trying really hard to see you like my lord does, its really hard when you act like na na na I am saved and your not! "
I have love for all believers and a passion that all know the truth about salvation. Here you have again misrepresented me and claimed that I say you aren't saved. That's simply not true. Anyone can read this thread and find it out. I agree with ending it. One side has clearly shown the truth from scripture.
"So do me a faor and please please hush you are iritating me and I am tired and this is even a stupid debate about something that doesnt matter"
You started the thread as an attack on the reformed view. You thought it mattered. I think it matters too. You do not have to respond in the thread, however I reserve the right to respond if I see error, as anyone should do to fix my errors.
"just let it go agree to disagree.. which I already know yuo cant do that forcing people to believe hwt ayou do is the way of john calvin!"
And this type of thing is why you get called a hypocrite. You don't see your own arrogance. You have misrepresented the reformed faith again and Calvin. I've already pointed out several times that I do not follow Calvin. Forcing people to believe actually goes against every belief I have....thing about it
