Author	Thread: Present Day Reformed Churchs On Who Is Israel
Admin	Present Day Reformed Churchs On Who Is Israel Posted : 3 Jun, 2012 05:13 AM On a large Christian forum, not part of a dating service, which I probably should not name, one of the members said the last few days that: "The NT Church is understood to be the �New Israel.� The Reformed covenant position recognizes a strict continuity between the OT people of God, Israel, and the NT people of God, the Church, the Body of Christ. According to Romans 4:11, 12 and Galatians 3:15-29, Christians are considered the true spiritual seed of Abraham. Reformed writers, Crenshaw and Gunn state, Paul argues in Galatians 3 that God intentionally used seed as a collective noun that has both a singular and plural reference so that the singular reference could refer to Christ and the plural reference could refer to those who are in Christ. Paul�s point is that the Abrahamic promises were made to Abraham and to his seed (vs. 16), that the seed of Abraham is Christ (vs. 16) and all who are in Christ (vs. 29), and that therefore the promise given to Abraham belongs to all who are in Christ (vs. 29), � When Paul was explaining the Old Testament promise that belongs to the Christian, he was referring specifically to the land promise � [Crenshaw and Gunn, 234, 235] Their comment builds upon John Calvin�s views of these passages, who wrote, In a word, he gives the appellation of the Israel of God to those whom he formally denominated the children of Abraham by faith (Gal. 3:29), and thus includes all believers, whether Jews or gentiles, who were united into one Church. [Calvin, 186]" The traditional Reformed teaching did not clearly say that Isreal reborn in Jesus Christ, after Christ, the dresser in the parable of the fig tree of Luke 13: 6-9, cut down Israel to himself alone and then his Apostles and after the Cross to the three thousand born again following Peter's preaching in Acts 2:41, is still the Israel of God, but made a spiritual house (I Peter 2: 5-9). But Calvinism prior to the 19th century start of the falling away did not follow the Catholics in saying that the capital C "church" replaced Israel, nor did the Calvinists say anything like 19th century dispensationalism taught, that God now has two peoples, the Jews and the 'church." Now, after the falling away of II Thessalonians 2: 3-4 is well under way, it appears the Reformed chuches will not accept the position of the Remnant that physical Israel was transformed into israel reborn in Christ, that physical Israel is not the chosen people, but the believers are, and the implications of all this. The Reformed churches will stick to their capital C church identity as a body of Christ, not just a meeting, assembly or conregation of Israel as a spiritual house. In their formal docrines they may not go as far as to say that God now has two peoples, the Jews and the church. And they may not teach against the idea that physical Israel remains the chosen people. "Paul in Romans 4: 13-14 and Galatians 3: 16-29 teaches that all who are in Christ are now the spiritual seed of Abraham by faith. He does not spoon feed us. We have to figure out by what he says that physical descent from Abraham is no longer the way to become the chosen of God. And the problem and importance here is that the teaching that believers, or the elect, are the spiritual heirs of Abraham by faith, and by being in Christ is a part of the Gospel. Contradicting this teaching is not of faith and points to another Gospel and another Christ. Scripture does not contradict itself. If it appears to do so, there is something wrong with your interpretation of scripture." "But Isreal is HATED for the gospel. but LOVED for the promises, because gods GIFTS are irrevocable. God promised that through abraham all the nations would be blessed. and recieve the heavenly promised land. He also promised the physical decedents would recieve the physical land of canaan as a promise forever. Even if I lived in that promised land, I too would rather have the heavenly, But it does nt mean Gods promise to them is not valid. If God renigs on his promise, he lied to abraham, and us." The above is what a different guy on this same forum wrote in the last few days. Here is the opposition between two polarities, one holding to the Gospel of the New Covenant and the New Testament, and the other holding on to the Old Covenant chosen people belief based upon physical descent from Abraham. There should be no consensus using the dialectic between these two opposites. And those holding to the first position, to the Gospel of Christ, and to the transformation of physical Israel into Israel as a spiritual house, reborn in Christ, must not use the dialectic in continual wrestling with the opposite position, because in that process you can began to be processed into the dialectic yourself. Part of the opposing position is the desire to have their version of Christ and at the same time to hold on to the belief that the chosen people status by physical descent continues after Christ died to transform physical Israel into Israel reborn in him. Revelation 2: 9 says "I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan." Arguing, in effect, that physical Israel remains the chosen people because of their physical descent from Abraham when Christ came to the lost sheep of the house of Israel and died on the Cross to transform them into a spiritual house reborn in him, or actually a remnant of them, is like saying one is a Jew but is not a real Jew as Paul defines a real Jew in Romans 2: 29. Those of the Gospel of Christ should just state that position as clearly as they can, and when the opposite side rejects it, leave the argument. Leave the conflict to the Lord. Remember II John 9-10, "Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son. 10. If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed:" Post Reply
View Profile History	Present Day Reformed Churchs On Who Is Israel Posted : 5 Jun, 2012 08:07 AM No brillance needed a dead man could see thru that, just read the responses. wrong again pj i am a nurse i ave seen plenty of corpses, they cant see like you can't. No one said anything about corpses. No more than a Christians buy's into the lie, man is as a corpse after the fall, the bible is very clear on the matter. Post Reply
dljrn04 View Profile History	Present Day Reformed Churchs On Who Is Israel Posted : 5 Jun, 2012 11:06 AM So in your imagination a dead person and a corpse are two different things, very interesting. Praise God his word is truth, and yours means nothing. Post Reply
View Profile History	Present Day Reformed Churchs On Who Is Israel Posted : 5 Jun, 2012 12:09 PM "No more than a Christians buy's into the lie, man is as a corpse after the fall, the bible is very clear on the matter. " >While you were DEAD< Post Reply
View Profile History	Present Day Reformed Churchs On Who Is Israel Posted : 5 Jun, 2012 01:13 PM You Guys and Gal are cracking me up...:ROFL:... >While you were DEAD< *** Hummm..:rolleyes:...this is very interesting�I gotta question�.is it..."While you were dead as a Corpse (dead as in no life�soul�breath)�or�as in (a physical person with a soul thats dead living & breathing in Trespasses & Sin)�??? Eph 2:1 And you [hath he quickened], who were dead in trespasses and sins; As for the Topic of discussion of present day Reformed Churches on who is Israel...I haven't a clue who they believe is Israel...One thing I do know is Israel is GOD's nation & land and the Jews who live their and the Gentiles that are graffted into Yahshua~Christ Jesus are His to...xo Post Reply
View Profile History	Present Day Reformed Churchs On Who Is Israel Posted : 5 Jun, 2012 03:27 PM Jude I didn't address PJ's point exactly..well...because of how he is. It does no good. However Calvinist don't teach that men are a corpse. Just that they are spiritually unable to respond to God in the positive sense because it is against their nature to do so. They are haters of God. I hope that provides some clarification. Post Reply
View Profile History	Present Day Reformed Churchs On Who Is Israel Posted : 5 Jun, 2012 04:16 PM Jude I didn't address PJ's point exactly..well...because of how he is. It does no good. However Calvinist don't teach that men are a corpse. Just that they are spiritually unable to respond to God in the positive sense because it is against their nature to do so. They are haters of God. I hope that provides some clarification. We know you do not like PJ exposing the lie. Btw the way faith is always a spiritual response and all men have always been capable of it, and the scripture is very clear on this matter, Does the unbelief of some make the faith of other's of none effect...NO Here is a challenge Hope you go before the lord and tell him PJ is wrong, he knows he is not wrong, we have had many discussions on the Calvinist doctrine. Pj never says he is right, it is the lord Jesus that is right. The tactic of blaming PJ has never had any. merit. Post Reply
View Profile History	Present Day Reformed Churchs On Who Is Israel Posted : 5 Jun, 2012 04:20 PM PJ I blame you for not understanding reformed theology. I am correct in doing so. You believe we teach man is a corpse...that's false. Man is dead in sin...so they are unable to respond to God, but THEY ARE ACTIVELY choosing to be against God. Post Reply
View Profile History	Present Day Reformed Churchs On Who Is Israel Posted : 5 Jun, 2012 04:31 PM PJ I blame you for not understanding reformed theology. I am correct in doing so. You believe we teach man is a corpse...that's false. Man is dead in sin...so they are unable to respond to God, but THEY ARE ACTIVELY choosing to be against God. Again I Understand what you say, but i understand what the word of God say's Your continual attacks against the word of God are your choice they are not found in scripture but in reformation's twisting of scripture Scripture no where says that man continually opposes God, you choose to deny all scripture speaks otherwise. I understand the doctrines of men, based upon the tradition's of men, which is what reformation theology is built upon. I understand The doctrines of the lord Jesus Christ built upon faith. Post Reply
View Profile History	Present Day Reformed Churchs On Who Is Israel Posted : 5 Jun, 2012 04:39 PM Yea yea my continued attacks...You're just never able to show that I attack the word. You only claim I do. Post Reply
View Profile History	Present Day Reformed Churchs On Who Is Israel Posted : 5 Jun, 2012 04:46 PM Yea yea my continued attacks...You're just never able to show that I attack the word. You only claim I do. Your response are the evidence and both kingdom"s are fully aware of them. People are not deceived that are walking in the light of the word, they can see the error. Post Reply

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