T = TOTAL INABILITY (Called in Calvinism, Total Depravity, but actually taught as the Total Inability of man to choose Truth. The Calvinist plays many such word games. The Word of God teaches that God created man with the ability to reason, choose, and receive Truth.):
Ephesians 2:8: "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God."
Romans 10:17: "So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God."
James 1:21: "Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and RECEIVE with meekness the engrafted Word, which is able to save your souls."
Isaiah1:18: "Come now, and let us REASON together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool."
Deuteronomy 30:19: "I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore CHOOSE LIFE, that both thou and thy seed may live."
Joshua 24:15: "And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, CHOOSE you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD."
Psalm 119:30, 111, 173: "I have CHOSEN The Way of Truth: Thy Judgments have I laid before me....Thy Testimonies have I taken as an heritage for ever: for They are the rejoicing of my heart....Let Thine hand help me; for I have chosen Thy Precepts."
John 1:12: "But as many as RECEIVED him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name."
2 Timothy 1:12: "...I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have COMMITTED unto him against that day."
P.J. - "There is an abundance to those that have ears to hear and eyes to see but this must be of the spirit, thus denying the mind it's selfish, renewed desires. "
This does not appear to be a verse taken from the Word of God. You are a man so your word is worthless. (according to you)
For sake of further clarification, let's turn to the Word of God.
"And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the RENEWING OF YOUR MIND, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God. " Romans 12:2
And be renewed in the SPIRIT OF YOUR MIND. Eph 4:23
Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity EVERY THOUGHT to the obedience of Christ 2 Cor. 10:5
Thoughts happen in the mind, not the eyes or the ears. Eyes are for seeing and ears are for hearing. The term "eyes to see and ears to hear" is a metaphor for spiritual understanding which, you got it, happens in THE MIND. When your mind is RENEWED, it does not have it's old selfish desires.
I don't mind the subject...I just dislike the lack of depth of study of passages when it comes to the subject. I dislike when people pull a verse out of it's context and have no idea what the true intention of it is...and just throw it in to the pile of verses that supposedly refute Calvinism. I dislike when people lead their study with emotion first and having already determined beforehand that God must choose all...That's not how the text should be studied. Grace is not grace if it is something God is obliged to give to all...
13 Greater love has no one than this, that someone lay down his life for his friends. 14 You are my friends if you do what I command you. 15 No longer do I call you servants, for the servant does not know what his master is doing; but I have called you friends, for all that I have heard from my Father I have made known to you. 16 You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit and that your fruit should abide, so that whatever you ask the Father in my name, he may give it to you. John 15:13-16
First of all we see that He layed down His life for His friends. That begs the question...Who are His friends? Verse 14 shows exactly who His friends are. I'm not sure how you can read these verses and come to the conclusion that Jesus died for every man on the face of the earth without except. Then we continue reading and clearly see the doctrine of election in verse 16 where Jesus says they didn't choose Him(isn't this what the whole debate is about?) but he chose them. These verses are perfectly in line with John 3:16 which teaches that Jesus came for those who would believe.
Scratch that last post. It was meant for the Uncondictional Election thread....
One thing that may be of help to some of you on the Total Depravity issue. People in the Arminian camp need to stop assuming that God's commands imply the ability for man to follow through with the commands. For instance, the Ten Commandments are there to show our need for grace. We are not able to perfectly follow them. However the command was to follow them. Pulling out scriptures where God commands people to repent and what not as some kind of refutation of total depravity will not suffice. I'm not saying that is what is happening in this thread specifically. It's just something to think about.
Using verses that tell men to seek Christ and He will be found...verses that say repent and believe the gospel...verses that say choose who you will serve....verses that say call upon the name of the Lord and you shall be saved.....and on and on...
None of these verses teach that man has the ability in and of himself to do these things. It's a weak argument to say they do and it's not scriptural. It is adding to the text something that is not there.
Using a real world example to illustrate Holding's point, I will show that " responsibility" to obey has nothing to do with "ability" to obey.
A. You receive a large bill in the mail from the IRS for taxes that you owe.
B. You do not have the money to pay the bill.
C. Therefore, you are not responsible for paying the IRS.
This is faulty reasoning. Your conclusion (C) can not be validly deduced from your premises( A&B). If you still believe that this is a valid argument, try it with the IRS and see. :laugh:
In this scenario, you could go so far as to say that you "choose" to obey,that you really "desire" to obey but you simply don't have the money. All you have still proven is your inability to meet the IRS' legal demands on you despite your personal obligation to pay.
