Let me start out by saying that I affirm and fully believe Jesus Christ, to be the one and only begotten of the Father, the "Son" of God. And that he is fully divine and fully human.
Now, let's take a look at some texts here and see what we can glean from them.
"He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son. Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: but he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also." 1 John 2:22, 23.
I do not believe they are role playing here so to speak, but that Jesus literally came forth from and out of the Father. There is a definate father and Son relationship here, the Father being older than his Son naturally.
"Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, Ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God..." John 8:42
"For the Father himself loveth you, because ye have loved me, and have believed that I came out from God. I came forth from the Father, and am come into the world..." John 16:27,28.
What I see here is that there was a time when before he "came out of God" that the Father did not have a son. It wasn't until his Father brought him into existence, out of his very own divine nature, that the Father then had a Son to love. He was brought forth into existence, long before this world was created and the rest of the heavenly universe because God created all things by his Son.
In Hebrews 1 we read:
3�Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high; 4�Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they. 5�For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son? So there you have the birth of the Father's Son. He did not always exists as a part of some trinity where they are all equally God and have all existed side by side from eternity unless you count Jesus as being one with the father when he was still within his "loins" if you will, before he became God's Son. The Father is older then his Son.
Take a look at Dan. 7:13, 14.
"I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him. And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed."
Here we clearly see that the Father is older then the Son. The Father being called "the ancient of days" and Jesus, the Son of man.
Now I realize this is a very sensitive subject and that we are treading on holy ground as we speak of the nature of the Son of God. I would just like to be able to prayerfully consider these scriptures and not our individual biasis and long standing traditions.
I'd like to suggest you do a little study and read the beginning of every one of Paul's letters and pay attention to how the Father and Son are addressed. In every single instance without fail, the Father is always addressed as God, and Jesus is never addressed as such. He is generally referred to as the "Lord" or God's Son.
Here's a few more scriptures to consider.
No man has seen God at any time. John 1:18 See also 1 John 4:12.
Many men saw Jesus, so how can he be God in the highest sense? For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus. 1 Tim 2:15.
Jesus is between God and man. I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God. John 20:17.
The Father is the God of Jesus.
"But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him." 1 Cor. 8:6.
This scripture is so clear.
"One Lord, one faith, one baptism, one God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all." Eph 4:5,6.
"But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God." 1 Cor. 11:3.
The woman isn't man, man isn't Christ and Christ isn't God, he's the Son of God. He is the express image of God, and God his father was in Christ reconciling the world to himself. That's why Jesus could say, if you have seen me, you have seen the Father.
But he wasn't actually, literally God, for "no man has ever seen God." But God was in Christ reconciling the world unto himself.
In the same way, Christ is to be in us. That doesn't make us Christ though. But if we are dead to self, then Christ will be living his life through us. When people see us, self should be hid and only Christ is seen. In like manner, Christ emptied himself so that when people saw Christ they saw God.
I could share much more, but I think this is enough to get people to think twice about some of our long standing traditions and interpretations of Scripture and sensitive subjects like this on the nature of Christ.
Thank you for allowing me the freedom to express my views on this subject.
An eternal being is not subject to time as we know it though. Jesus did become mortal and therefore subject to time, and He does have a physical body now, so I believe He gave up His omnipresence also. Anyway...it just seems like a stretch to me. Like I said, you're saying that "God" is a created being, and I'll need a lot more scripture than what you've presented to believe that.
I also have a personal problem with using an uninspired concordance to interpret truth in the bible. Interpretations and translations keep changing constantly, even just in the last 100 years, and people like to pick whatever word definition that agrees with their view. I'll just stick with the oldest version of the bible I can understand, and compare scripture with scripture. Doesn't seem safe to do anything else, unless there's some revelation from God that Strong was an inspired man. I did look up "greater" in strong's concordance though. It means "greater" 43 times in the bible, and "elder" once. How are we to decide which definition to use? The Father is the greatest of the trinity. He is the "head". That's all I interpret it to mean.
The bible does call Jesus the "first begotten" of the world, but it also says He was "slain" before the foundation of the world as well. I just take it to mean that God planned the plan of salvation, even before Lucifer sinned. And I'm not whisking it away into any more mystery than it's already in. Can you tell me how old an immortal being is that has always existed? Can you explain to me how an immortal being perceives time? Can you explain to me what effects/consequences there would be on a immortal/omni-everything/divine being that came to exist as a mortal human?
Anyway, if you could show me old testament examples, or even some more new testament ones, that refer to pre-mortal, pre-human birthed Jesus as "the son", then I would be more inclined to believe it. Jesus was refered to as "the son" because He was literally born "the Son of God", with a mother and everything. And also, Mary was seemingly impregnated by the Holy Spirit, and not literally the Father. Is the Holy Spirit also a created being, or are there just two entities that are the same in the God-head? Mysteries abound!!
1 God, 1 Spirit, 1 God and 1 Spirit on Earth called Jesus along with many other names, 1 Man 1 Spirit returned to God and left us that same Spirit.
God with his Holy Spirit in the OT Prophets had to be laid upon them the Holy Spirit, the NT, God transferred his Holy Spirit to flesh which is still the same to Jesus and he transferred that same Holy Spirit to us when he returned to God in heaven. Jesus was indeed the human messenger of God; after all He was God's Son and was sent to earth to walk among the people and proclaim the Good News. In all of our learning and teaching, we have been told to have faith in the things that we cannot see or touch or feel. God tried to help the early inhabitants of this world to see, feel, touch, be taught and share fellowship with His Son Jesus. Jesus was sent to earth in the earthly form of a baby to grow and walk among the people of this world, while teaching and preaching God's message to the world. When he left us, he went back to the Holy Spirit and left the same Holy Spirit with us to finish his teaching and preaching. I believe that after he ascended and left the Holy Spirit their was no need to have the office of Prophets because God didn't need to lay the Holy Spirit on anyone else, because the Holy Spirit was left for each and everyone of his servants to finish his mission to build the Kingdom.
The word �disciple� refers to a learner or follower. The word �apostle� means �one who is sent out.� While Jesus was on earth, His twelve followers were called disciples. The twelve disciples followed Jesus Christ, learned from Him, and were trained by Him. After His resurrection and ascension, Jesus sent the disciples out to be His witnesses (Matthew 28:18-20; Acts 1:8). They were then referred to as the twelve apostles. However, even when Jesus was still on earth, the terms �disciples� and �apostles� were used somewhat interchangeably. That is why their was no need to have anymore apostles, their mission was to raise up disciples to include us.
The doctrine of the Trinity � that God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit are each equally and eternally the one true God � is admittedly difficult to comprehend, and yet is the very foundation of Christian truth. Although skeptics may ridicule it as a mathematical impossibility, it is nevertheless a basic doctrine of Scripture as well as profoundly realistic in both universal experience and in the scientific understanding of the cosmos.
Both Old and New Testaments teach the Unity and the Trinity of the Godhead. The idea that there is only one God, who created all things, is repeatedly emphasized in such Scriptures as Isaiah 45:18:
�For thus saith the Lord that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; �I am the Lord; and there is none else.�
A New Testament example is James 2:19:
�Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well; the devils also believe, and tremble.�
The three persons of the Godhead are, at the same time, noted in such Scriptures as Isaiah 48:16:
�I have not spoken in secret from the beginning; from the time that it was, there am I; and now the Lord God, and his Spirit, hath sent me.�
The speaker in this verse is obviously God, and yet He says He has been sent both by The Lord God (that is, the Father) and by His Spirit (that is, the Holy Spirit).
The New Testament doctrine of the Trinity is evident in such a verse as John 15:26, where the Lord Jesus said:
�But when the Comforter is come whom I will send unto you from the Father, He shall testify of me.�
Then there is the baptismal formula:
�Baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost� (Matthew 28:19).
One name (God) � yet three names!
JESUS � That Jesus, as the only-begotten Son of God, actually claimed to be God, equal with the Father, is clear from numerous Scriptures. For example, He said:
�I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty� (Revelation 1:8).
HOLY SPIRIT � some cults falsely teach that the Holy Spirit is an impersonal divine influence of some kind, but the Bible teaches that He is a real person, just as are the Father and the Son. Jesus said:
�Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak; and he will show you things to come� (John 16:13).
TRI-UNITY � the teaching of the Bible concerning the Trinity might be summarized thus. God is a Tri-unity, with each Person of the Godhead equally and fully and eternally God. Each is necessary, and each is distinct, and yet all are one. The three Persons appear in a logical, causal order. The Father is the unseen, omnipresent Source of all being, revealed in and by the Son, experienced in and by the Holy Spirit. The Son proceeds from the Father, and the Spirit from the Son. With reference to God's creation, the Father is the Thought behind it, the Son is the Word calling it forth, and the Spirit is the Deed making it a reality.
We �see� God and His great salvation in the Son of God, the Lord Jesus Christ, then �experience� their reality by faith, through the indwelling presence of His Holy Spirit.
Though these relationships seem paradoxical, and to some completely impossible, they are profoundly realistic, and their truth is ingrained deep in man's nature. Thus, men have always sensed first the truth that God must be �out there,� everywhere present and the First Cause of all things, but they have corrupted this intuitive knowledge of the Father into pantheism and ultimately into naturalism.
Similarly, men have always felt the need to �see� God in terms of their own experience and understanding, but this knowledge that God must reveal Himself has been distorted into polytheism and idolatry. Men have thus continually erected �models� of God, sometimes in the form of graven images, sometimes even in the form of philosophical systems purporting to represent ultimate reality.
Finally, men have always known that they should be able to have communion with their Creator and to experience His presence �within.� But this deep intuition of the Holy Spirit has been corrupted into various forms of false mysticism and fanaticism, and even into spiritism and demonism. Thus, the truth of God's tri-unity is ingrained in man's very nature, but he has often distorted it and substituted a false god in its place.
"The Father is the unseen, omnipresent Source of all being, revealed in and by the Son, experienced in and by the Holy Spirit. The Son proceeds from the Father, and the Spirit from the Son. With reference to God's creation, the Father is the Thought behind it, the Son is the Word calling it forth, and the Spirit is the Deed making it a reality."
I haven't been around for a year or so and thought I'd drop in to the forums. Great, stimulating conversation here. :applause:
I have to applaud the answers supporting Jesus as God, this is who He is to me! Besides that~He was crucified for blasphemy~ by claiming Himself as God. The Jewish council knew that He meant that when He said He had power to forgive sins because only GOD had that power. Selah~:purpleangel:
