"The hallmark of an authentic evangelicalism is not the uncritical repetition of old traditions, but the willingness to submit every tradition,however ancient, to fresh biblical scrutiny and, if necessary, reform."
�JOHN STOTT, TWENTIETH-CENTURY BRITISH MINISTER AND
BIBLE SCHOLAR
"The real trouble is not in fact that the church is too rich but that it has become heavily institutionalized, with a crushing investment in maintenance. It has the characteristics of the dinosaur and battleship. It is saddled with a plant and a programme beyond its means, so that it is absorbed in problems of supply and preoccupied with survival.The inertia of the machine is such that the financial allocations, the legalities, the channels of organization, the attitudes of mind, a real set in the direction of continuing and enhancing the status quo. If one wants to pursue a course which cuts across these channels,then most of one's energies are exhausted before one ever reaches the enemy lines."
�JOHN A. T. ROBINSON, TWENTIETH-CENTURY ENGLISH
NEW TESTAMENT SCHOLAR
WALK INTO ANY CHRISTIAN CHURCH service and you'll find it will usu-ally begin with the singing of hymns, choruses, or praise and worship songs. One person (or a team of people) will both lead and direct the singing. In more traditional churches, it will be the choir director or the music minister. (In some churches, this role is even played by the senior pastor.) Or it may be handled by the choir itself. In con-temporary churches, it will be the worship leader or the praise and worship team.
Leading up to the sermon, those who "lead worship" select the songs that are to be sung. They begin those songs. They decide how those songs are to be sung. And they decide when those songs are over. Those sitting in the audience in no way, shape, or form lead the singing. They are led by someone else who is often part of the clerical staff�or who has similar stature.
This is in stark contrast to the first-century way. In the early church, worship and singing were in the hands of all of God's people.' The church herself led her own songs. Singing and leading songs was a corporate affair, not a professional event led by specialists.
THE ORIGINS OF THE CHOIR
This all began to change with the rise of the clergy and the advent of the Christian choir, which dates back to the fourth century. Shortly after the Edict of Milan (AD 313), the persecution of Christians ceased. During Constantine's reign, choirs were developed and trained to help celebrate the Eucharist. The practice was borrowed from Roman custom, which began its imperial ceremonies with processional music. Special schools were established, and choir singers were given the status of a second-string clergy.
The roots of the choir are found in the pagan Greek temples and Greek dramas.' Will Durant states it beautifully: "In the MiddleAges, as in ancient Greece, the main fountainhead of drama was inreligious liturgy. The Mass itself was a dramatic spectacle; the sanc-tuary a sacred stage; the celebrants wore symbolic costumes; priestand acolytes engaged in dialogue; and the antiphonal responses ofpriest and choir, and of choir to choir, suggested precisely that sameevolution of drama from dialogue that had generated the sacredDionysian play."'
With the advent of the choir in the Christian church, singing was no longer done by all of God's people but by clerical staff composed of trained singers.' This shift was partly due to the fact thatheretical doctrines were spread through hymn singing. The clergyfelt that if the singing of hymns was in their control, it would curb thespread of heresy.' But it was also rooted in the ever-growing powerof the clergy as the main performers in the Christian drama.'
By AD 367, congregational singing was altogether banned. Itwas replaced by music from the trained choirs.' Thus was born thetrained professional singer in the church. Singing in Christian worship was now the domain of the clergy and choir.
Ambrose is credited for creating the first postapostolic Christianhymns.' These hymns were modeled on the old Greek modes and called by Greek names.' Ambrose also created a collection of liturgi-cal chants that are still used today in some Catholic churches." Theliturgical chant is the direct descendant of the pagan Roman chant,which goes back to the ancient Sumarian cities."
Papal choirs began in the fifth century." When Gregory theGreat became pope near the end of the sixth century, he reorganizedthe Schola Cantorum (school of singing) in Rome. (This school wasfounded by Pope Sylvester, who died in AD 335.)
With this school, Gregory established professional singers whotrained Christian choirs all throughout the Roman Empire. The singers trained for nine years. They had to memorize every song that they sang�including the famous Gregorian chant." Gregory wipedout the last vestiges of congregational singing, believing music was aclerical function and the exclusive right of trained singers.
Trained choirs, trained singers, and the end of congregationalsinging all reflected the cultural mind-set of the Greeks. Much likeoratory (professional speaking), the Greek culture was built aroundan audience-performer dynamic. Tragically, this trait was carried overfrom the temples of Diana and the Greek dramas straight into theChristian church. The congregation of God's people became spectatorsnot only in spoken ministry, but in singing as well.' Regrettably, thespirit of Greek spectatorship still lives in the contemporary church.
Christian boys' choirs also go back to the days of Constantine.Some still exist. Most were created from orphanages." The Vienna Boys Choir, for example, was founded in Vienna, Austria, in 1498. Thechoir sang exclusively for the court, at Mass, and at private concertsand state events." The first boys' choirs were actually established bypagans who worshipped Greco-Roman gods." These pagans believedthat the voice of young boys possessed special powers."
THE FUNERAL DIRGE AND PROCESSION
Another form of music with pagan roots is the funeral dirge. It was brought into the Christian church in the early third century. As one scholar put it, "The pagan cult of the dead was too much a part of thepast lives of many Christians, formerly pagans, for them simply to beable to replace pagan dirges and funeral music with Psalmody.'
During the days of Constantine, Roman betrothal practices andfuneral processions were adapted and transformed into Christian"funerals."This was borrowed from pagan practice." The so-calledfuneral dirge that is observed and accepted by Christians also cameout of paganism.' It was brought into the Christian church in theearly third century. Tertullian was opposed to Christian funeral pro-cession simply because it had pagan origins.'
Not only did the funeral procession emerge out of paganism; sodid the funeral oration. It was the common practice of pagans in theRoman Empire to hire one of the town's eloquent professors to speakat the funeral of a loved one. The speaker followed a little handbookfor such occasions. He would work himself up to a passionate pitchand then say of the deceased, "He now lives among the gods, travers-ing the heavens and looking down on life below."" It was his job to comfort the loved ones of the deceased. This role is filled today bythe contemporary pastor. Even the words of the oration are strikinglysimilar!
THE CONTRIBUTION OF THE REFORMATION
The major musical contribution of the Reformers was the restora-tion of congregational singing and the use of instruments. John Huss(1372-1415) of Bohemia and his followers (called Hussites) wereamong the first to bring both back into the church.'-'
Luther also encouraged congregational singing during certain partsof the service.' But congregational hymn singing did not reach its peakuntil the eighteenth century during the Wesleyan revival in England."
In Reformation churches, the choir remained. It both supportedand led congregational singing." About 150 years after the Reforma-tion, congregational singing became a generally accepted practice." Bythe eighteenth century, the organ would take the place of the choir inleading Christian worship."
Interestingly, there is no evidence of musical instruments in theChristian church service until the Middle Ages." Before then, all sing-ing during the service was unaccompanied by musical instruments.'
The church fathers took a dim view of musical instruments, associat-ing them with immorality and idolatry.35 Calvin agreed, viewing musi-cal instruments as pagan. Consequently, for two centuries, Reformedchurches sang psalms without the use of instruments."
The organ was the first instrument used by post-ConstantinianChristians.' Organs were found in Christian churches as early asthe sixth century. But they were not used during the Mass until thetwelfth century. By the thirteenth century, the organ became an inte-gral part of the Mass."
The organ was first used to give the tone to the priests and thechoir." During the Reformation, the organ became the standardinstrument used in Protestant worship�except among the Calvin-ists, who removed and demolished church organs.' The first organto be purchased by an American church was in 1704.41
The first Protestant choirs began flourishing in the mid-eighteenthcentury." Special seats were assigned to choir members to show theirspecial status.
At first, the function of the choir was to set the pitch for con-gregational singing. But before long, the choir began to contributespecial selections.' Thus was born special music by the choir as thecongregation watched it perform.
By the end of the nineteenth century, the children's choir made itsappearance in American churches.' By this time, it became customaryfor the choir in nonliturgical churches to play special music. (Thispractice was eventually carried over to liturgical churches as well.)"
The location of the choir is worth noting. In the late sixteenthcentury, the choir moved from the chancel (clergy platform) to therear gallery where a pipe organ was installed.' But during the OxfordMovement of the late nineteenth and early twentieth centuries, thechoir returned to the chancel. It was at this time that choir membersbegan wearing ecclesiastical robes." By the 1920s and 1930s, it wascustomary for American choirs to wear these special vestments tomatch the newly acquired neo-Gothic church buildings." The choirin their archaic clerical clothes were now standing with the clergy infront of the people!"
THE ORIGIN OF THE WORSHIP TEAM
In many contemporary churches, whether charismatic or noncharis-matic, the choir has been replaced by the worship team." Suchchurches have sanctuaries that boast few religious symbols (exceptpossibly banners).
At the front of the stage is a simple podium, some plants, ampli-fiers, speakers, and lots of wires. The dress is usually casual. Foldingchairs or theater seats typically are used in place of pews. The standardworship team includes an amplified guitar, drums, keyboard, possiblya bass guitar, and some special vocalists. Words are usually projectedonto a screen or a bare wall by an overhead (or video) projector or byPowerPoint slides. The songs are typically selected before the wor-ship service. There are rarely songbooks or hymnals.
In such churches, worship means following the band's prescribedsongs. The praise and worship time typically lasts from twenty to fortyminutes. The first songs are usually upbeat praise choruses.' Theworship team will then lead a lively, hand-clapping, body-swaying,
hand-raising, (sometimes dancing) congregation into a potpourri ofindividualistic, gentle, worshipful singing. (Typically, the focus of thesongs is on individual spiritual experience. First person singular pro-nouns�I, me, my�dominate a good number of the songs." In somecontemporary churches, the trend is moving more toward corporate,first person plural lines�we, us, our. This is a wonderful shift.)
As the band leaves the stage, ushers pass the offering plates. Thisis usually followed by the sermon, and the pastor dominates the restof the service. In many churches, the pastor will call the worship teamto return to the stage to play a few more worshipful songs as he windsup his sermon. "Ministry time" may ensue as the band plays on.
The song liturgy just described works like clockwork in thetypical charismatic and nondenominational church. But where didit come from?
In 1962, a group of dissatisfied British church musicians in Dun-blane, Scotland, tried to revitalize traditional Christian songs. Ledby Congregational minister Erik Routley, these artists were influ-enced by Bob Dylan and Sydney Carter. George Shorney Jr. of HopePublishing Company brought their new style to the United States.These new Christian hymns were a reform, but not a revolution. Therevolution came when rock and roll was adapted into Christian musicwith the coming of the Jesus movement. This reform set the stage forthe revolutionary musical changes to take root in the Christian churchthrough Calvary Chapel and the Vineyard.53
The origin of the worship team goes back to the founding ofCalvary Chapel in 1965. Chuck Smith, the founder of the denomina-tion, started a ministry for hippies and surfers. Smith welcomed thenewly converted hippies to retune their guitars and play their nowredeemed music in church. He gave the counterculture a stage fortheir music�allowing them to play Sunday night performances and concerts. The new musical forms began to be called "praise and wor-ship."' As the Jesus movement began to flourish, Smith founded therecord company Maranatha Music in the early 1970s. Its goal was todistribute the songs of these young artists."
The Vineyard, under the influence of musical genius John Wim-ber, followed suit with the worship team. Wimber, a former CalvaryChapel pastor, became head of the Vineyard movement in 1982. Sincethat time, the Vineyard has probably had more influence on establish-ing worship teams and worship music than Calvary Chapel. Vineyardmusic is regarded as more intimate and worshipful, while CalvaryChapel's music is known for its upbeat, praise-oriented songs."
In due time, the guitar replaced the organ as the central instru-ment that led worship in the Protestant church. Although patternedafter the rock concert of secular culture, the worship team has becomeas common as the pulpit.
SO WHAT'S THE GRIPE?
Perhaps you are wondering, What's wrong with having a choir leader,a worship leader, or a worship team to lead the church's singing? Nothing. . . if every member of the church is content with it. However, manyChristians feel that it robs God's people of a vital function: to selectand lead their own singing in the meetings�to have divine worshipin their own hands�to allow Jesus Christ to direct the singing of Hischurch rather than have it led by a human facilitator. Singing in theearly church was marked by these very features.
Listen to Paul's description of a first-century church meeting:"Every one of you hath a psalm" (1 Corinthians 14:26). "Speak toone another with psalms, hymns and spiritual songs" (Ephesians 5:19,NIV). Consider the words "every one of you." Song leaders, choirs,and worship teams make this impossible by limiting the headship of Christ�specifically His ministry of leading His brethren into sing-ing praise songs to His Father. Of this ministry (which is little knowntoday), the writer of Hebrews says, "Both the one who makes menholy and those who are made holy are of the same family. So Jesus isnot ashamed to call them brothers. He says, 'I will declare your nameto my brothers; in the presence of the congregation [ekklesia] I willsing your praises" (Hebrews 2:11-12, NIV).
When worship songs can only be announced, initiated, and led bythe talented, this element of the service becomes more like entertain-ment than corporate worship." And only those who "make the cut"are allowed to participate in the ministry of leading songs. We wouldargue that according to New Testament principle, the ministry ofsinging belongs in the hands of all of God's people. And there shouldbe an outlet for this ministry to be expressed.
I (Frank) am no theoretician. For almost twenty years I havegathered with churches where every member has been trained to starta song spontaneously." Imagine: Every brother and sister free to leadsongs under the headship of Jesus Christ�even to write his or herown songs and bring them to the meeting for all to learn. I have metwith numerous churches that have experienced this glorious dynamic.Someone starts a song and everyone joins in. Then someone elsebegins another song, and so worship continues without long pausesand with no visible leader present.
This is exactly how the first-century Christians worshipped, bythe way. Yet it is a rare experience in the modern-day institutionalchurch. The good news is that it is possible and available for all whowish to experience Christ's headship through song in a church meet-ing. The singing in such churches is intensely corporate rather thanindividualistic and subjective."
"By the rivers of Babylon, there we sat down, yea, we wept, when we remembered Zion. We hanged our harps upon the willows in themidst thereof. For there they that carried us away captive requiredof us a song; and they that wasted us required of us mirth, saying,Sing us one of the songs of Zion. How shall we sing the LORD'S songin a strange land?" . . . "When the LORD turned again the captivityof Zion, we were like them that dream. Then was our mouth filledwith laughter, and our tongue with singing: then said they among theheathen, The Lord hath done great things for them" (Psalm 137:1-4;126:1-2).
>delving DEEPER
1.You expose the "pagan roots" of the church choir; yet I don't see why that in and of itself makesit less valuable. I don't have the gift of singing but appreciate that those who love music and aregifted in that area take the time and effort to prepare to lead me into worship through song. Yourthoughts?
We also appreciate those who are musically gifted and who can use their musicaltalents to bless others. However, to relegate the song selections in every churchgathering to a select few (i.e., a choir or worship team) disallows the rest of the bodyfrom participating in this ministry. This contradicts Scripture. As Paul says, "everyone of you hath a psalm" in the gathering (1 Corinthians 14:26).
2.Currently my pastor and the worship team leader choose music that corresponds with the morn-ing's message. I may not "connect" with every song chosen but don't see how that would be anydifferent if everyone present were invited to choose and lead a song.
If one has never seen a group of Christians choosing and leading their own songsspontaneously under Christ's headship, it is difficult to grasp what this would looklike. Suffice it to say that there is a world of difference between having a select groupof people pick the songs and having every believer participate in initiating songs.It is the difference between passively following one person (or a small group) andeveryone actively participating together spontaneously.
3. In the Old Testament period (see 1 Chronicles 23:5, 30; 25:1-31, 2 Chronicles 7:6), God instituted"professional" worship leaders among the Levitical families who led public worship and wrote
many of the Psalms (e.g., those by Asaph and the descendants of Korah). Do you think this providesa biblical basis for a valid music ministry? Why or why not?
We believe these passages actually support our point. The Old Testament priesthoodwas restricted to a select group of people�the Levites. In the New Covenant, thatselective priesthood has been done away with, and every Christian has been made apriest unto God. We are not part of the Levitical priesthood; we are priests after theorder of Melchizedek (Hebrews 5-7). Christ is our High Priest, and every believeris a priest under Him (1 Peter 2:5, 9; Revelation 1:6). Therefore, to our minds, thesepassages show that every Christian has the right to participate in "leading worship"under Christ's headship.
*looks at ET's post and says* Man, this is going to be a long one, but here goes nothin'.
ETcallHome Posted: Agapeton, you posted a quote from and artcile, yet you have not answered my question, becasue you have no answer only negative arguments as you do, and expressions of your displease in how OTHER WORSHIP GOD, which has NOT ONE THINGS TO DO WITH YOU! Its God busnisess and not your.
ME: Actually, sister HAD YOU ACTUALLY READ THE ARTICLE AND THE QUESTION YOU POSTED TWICE THEN YOU WOULD HAVE SEEN THAT IT WAS ANSWERED ALREADY.
The fact that I quoted a portion of that article to you again WITH THE VERSES IN THEM WITH THE HIGHLIGHTED WORDS WOULD HAVE SHOWN YOU THE WHOLE THRUST OF THE ARTICLE. But it seems that you don't grasp or want to for some reason because the ARTICLE ISN'T SPEAKING ABOUT MUSICAL INSTRUMENTS AND THEIR NECESSITY IN THE WORSHIPING AT THE GATHERINGS as opposed to what you keep repeating....
Also, before I continue here let me interject that although words are highlighted that does not mean that I am emotionally charged, or giving an opinion of your character, or insulting you. OK? Because i am trying to STRESS A POINT so that YOU DON'T GET CONFUSED AND GET THE WRONG IDEA and fly off the handle with it.
K... so Let me continue.....
ETcallHome Posted: "expressions of your displease in how OTHER WORSHIP GOD, which has NOT ONE THINGS TO DO WITH YOU! Its God busnisess and not your."
ME: Actually, sister, I never once stated that I was displeased in how others worship. And to be honest with you, since Christ's act on the cross, I, along with you and whomever believes in Him, have become a sons of God, who like Christ, which is also a brother, then we too, should go about our Father's business and discuss how the our brethren should be behaving in OUR HOUSE. Do you want me to add Scripture to that, sister, or do you know where the verses showing these truths are?
ETcallHome Posted: Also, you have not presented any scripture from God's word wherein God requires us NOT TO WORSHIP HIM as is done in the local church. What you have posted is Paul rebuking the Corinthians because they were not in ORDER and there was confusion in the church when it came to the use of their spiritual gifts in their worship services. So he was questioning their motives and he says this:I Corinthians 14:26 How is it then, brethren? Whenever you come together, EACH OF YOU has a psalm, has a teaching, has a tongue, has a revelation, has an interpretation. Let all things be done for edification.
ME: WHO THA HECK SAID THAT THE WORD SAID THAT GOD REQUIRED US NOT TO WORSHIP HIM, woman? WHERE THE HECK DID YOU READ THIS FROM ANYWHERE IN THIS TOPIC??!! I Posted 1 Cor. 14:26 to SHOW THAT WHEN THEY GATHERED THEY ALL HAD SOMETHING TO SHARE AT THE TIME OF THE MEETING. You seem to be drifting into a tangent on this one, ET. I'll show ya where in your next comment.
ETcallHome Posted: In other words Paul is syaing how is it that you can conduct the order of snging , and giving a word but you can be in order in other matters of worship. That's the point of what Paul is speaking here in these passages. He is correcting them and baming then with their faults of true worship to cut down on the confusion during worship service when they gathered.
ME: Actually, if read within in context, Paul is showing that the ORDER THAT THEY ALREADY HAD BEEN TAUGHT BY HIM WHEN HE WAS THERE WAS STILL BEING FOLLOWED BY EVERYONE COMING UP WITH SOMETHING AT THE MEETINGS AT THAT GIVEN TIME EXCEPT FOR THE OVER ABUSE OF A SPOKEN UNKNOWN LANGUAGE WITHOUT ANY INTERPRETATION FROM IT. Look again:
1Co 14:23 If, therefore, the whole church comes together and all speak in tongues, and outsiders or unbelievers enter, will they not say that you are out of your minds?
1Co 14:24 But if all prophesy, and an unbeliever or outsider enters, he is convicted by all, he is called to account by all,
1Co 14:25 the secrets of his heart are disclosed, and so, falling on his face, he will worship God and declare that God is really among you.
1Co 14:26 What then, brothers? WHEN YOU COME TOGETHER, each one has a hymn, a lesson, a revelation, a tongue, or an interpretation. Let all things be done for building up.
1Co 14:27 If any speak in a tongue, let there be only two or at most three, and each in turn, and let someone interpret.
1Co 14:28 But if there is no one to interpret, let each of them keep silent in church and speak to himself and to God.
Again, Paul is showing the NATURAL order he instilled and founded them on by ALL OF THE BELIEVERS COMING TOGETHER IN ORDER when he is REBUKING the assembly for ABUSING THE SPEAKING OF TONGUES WITHOUT AN INTERPRETATION. He was NOT saying that their gathering was a chaotic mess BECAUSE THEY HAD BEEN COMING TOGETHER FOR SEVERAL YEARS BEFORE THIS LETTER WAS WRITTEN.
ETcallHome Posted: Sorry, but your argument nor does the article hold water of any spiritual sort, nor can you find any scripture to supoort that what your opinion is about what God requires. You speak not from spiritual knowlegde in knowing, but from what you read online in articles that you agree with your OPINIONS!
ME: Funny. I showed you Scripture and you wouldn't acknowledge them. You misinterpreted one that I did present and are here telling me that I'm wrong and don't understand. Seriously, I don't see how you can consider me to not understand when you have gotten what the article and I posted wrong several times now. This seems to be the recurring case with you I notice, sister. I remember you doing the same thing in another topic as well.
ETcallHome Posted: God's concern is about ORDER when gathered to worship and praise Him. Not what YOU or anyone else thinks how anyone should worship or praise Him.
ME: Who said it isn't? Order is one thing but CONTROL is another. There is NO VERSE IN SCRIPTURE SHOWING A LONE LEADER IN THE CHURCH TO HEAD, DOMINATE, PICK, AND CHOOSE WHOM SHOULD SAY, SING, PRAY, OR LEAD ANYONE AT A GATHERING IN THE NEW TESTAMENT OTHER THAN THE LORD JESUS CHRIST THROUGH HIS SPIRIT. And if there is, I want to see it.
ETcallHome Posted: Nevertheless, I ask you, what do you propose the local church should do?
ME: Good question. How about we give the assembling of the believers over to the Holy Spirit and He decides WHICH OF ALL THE BELIEVERS DISPLAY HIS GIFTS ONE TO ANOTHER AT A GATHERING BY LEADING ALL INTO:
Encouraging one another (Heb. 10:25)
Adressing one another in psalms, hymns, spiritual songs, (Eph. 5:19, Col. 3:16)
Teaching and admonishing ONE ANOTHER in all wisdom (Col. 3:16) and revelation, and lesson, and a tongue, and interpretation of that tongue (1 Cor. 14:26) in a NICE ORDERLY FASHION ONE AFTER THE OTHER WHICH ALL CAN DO (1 Cor. 14:31) while the other believers sit, judge (1 Cor. 14:29; ), learn, and be encouraged, while at the same time ready to lovingly admonish the speaker if something is stated wrong according to Scripture in front of everyone so that the rest may stay in fear (1 Tim. 5:1-2; 20) while making sure that everyone prays for all who need it with one accord.
Does that sound about right? How about that for a start, sister? I think that giving Christ His proper due in the center of the gatherings and making Him lead us by our adherence to the very Word He gave us instead of a man's tradition is a good start. Your thoughts?
Oh for the rest of your credential asking stuff, seriously, what's the point here? You getting a bit to carried away again by getting personal when we are talking about a corporate act of worship. Let me show you just where you are getting a bit Pharisitical by highlighting a few "questions".
ETcallHome Posted: Also I ask what are YOU, PERSONALLY DOING to follow the pratice of the early 1st century chhurch in how you worship and praise God when you gather with whomever you gather with?
ME: What I'm PERSONALLY DOING in a GATHERING WITH BELIEVERS? Wha?!
ETcallHome Posted: And again, What is the spiritual purposed mission of your gathering?
ME: To edify the Body of Christ through the believers' gifts which Christ gave to minister to believers by the believers through His Spirit for His glory which is led by Him for Him to magnify Him.
Now I ask you. What is EVERYONE'S MISSION WHEN YOU ALL GATHER TOGETHER SITTING, LOOKING, SINGING, AND LISTENING TO ONE PERSON'S CHOICE OF MUSIC, WORDS, AND INTERPRETATION, sister?
ETcallHome Posted: Do you and others recognize Christ as the head of your gathering and are you carrying out what God has told the body of Christ to do in the Great Commission?
ME: Yes we do. The purpose of the gatherings are to edify one another and to glorify Christ through the manifestation of Himself through the active functioning gifts of the believers for the believers to the glory of God.
The great commission to preach Christ crucified is done outside our meetings because the Lord told us to make the WORLD DISCIPLES AND TO TEACH IT OF Christ and NOT the other way around because The Holy Spirit is in us...
Now, are you really satisfied with these answers or do you still want me to jump through hoops until you are satisfied with something that has nothing to do with what I or this topic is about, sister?
Cause this is really ridiculous if I continue with it...
ETcallHome Posted: Is Jesus Christ the mission of your gathering to GO teach and preach and help to the poor and lost?
ME: If it wasn't for JESUS there would be no gathering...
ETcallHome Posted: It would seem this is what God is concerned about and not the non-essentials of a choir, or instruments or a praise team, or a song leader before the congregation. And you can't provide any scripture wherein God said not to have such in the local church.Or that it is a sin.
ME: Who said it is sin? Woman, are you on the same topic here or does the off topic side of the street normally seem like a good place to walk on for you?
ETcallHome Posted: So what do you propose and what are you personally doing in your gatherings to make these changes?
ME: Showed ya a few according to Scripture cause you already asked this....
ETcallHome Posted: How you choose to worship and praise God is between you and God, just as it is between God and those who worship Him, and its not your concern how others worship and praise Him, or how YOU THINK THEY SHOULD.
ME: Showed ya why in my first statement to you, dear...
I see a circle building........
AND it is getting LARGER....
ETcallHome Posted: So again WHAT'S YOUR PROBLEM??... and what do you recommend?..
Is the local church to resort backward to the 1st century church practices? If so, then are YOU PERSONALLY DOING WHAT THE 1ST CENTURY CHURCH DID, NOT JUST IN SOME THINGS, BUT IN ALL THINGS?
Are you and those you gather with examples of the 1st century church?
Because of the way you worship and prasie God as according to the 1st cnetury church, has it made you closer and and more spiritual in knowing God's word, and given you a closer connection in wlaking in the pwoer of the Holy Spirit?
Have you received more revelation knowledge, wisdom and understanding as to who GOD is by the way you worship and prasie HIm according to what YOU THINK HAPPENED IN THE FIRST CENTURY CHURCH?
The truth be known, you have no idea what took place in any of the churches except what Paul has wrtten as a rebuke ot the church at Corinth. In fact, God's word DOES NOT TELL US WHAT THEY DID IN EVERY WORSHIP SERVICE, SO YOU DON'T KNOW IF THEY HAD A song leader, insturments, or not!?
ME: Right...
SO if the Scripture said:
1Co 14:26 What then, brothers? When you come together, THE WORSHIP LEADER OR WORSHIP TEAM has a hymn, a lesson, a revelation, a tongue, or an interpretation. Let all things be done for building up.
OR
Col 3:16 Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly, teaching and admonishing BY A CERTAIN APPOINTED PERSON DONE BY ONE WHO IS in all wisdom, WHILE THE THE WORSHIP LEADER OR WORSHIP TEAM singing psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, with thankfulness in your hearts to God.
OR
Eph 5:19 LET THE THE WORSHIP LEADER OR WORSHIP TEAM LEAD EVERYONE in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody to the Lord with your heart,
We would know. Right?
OR could it be? I mean could it just really be that the way that the text is presented it means that there WASN'T EVER SUPPOSED TO BE A SPECIFIED HAND PICKED ANOINTED FEW TO LEAD EVERYONE ELSE INTO SOMETHING?
I mean, for real. How can a God, whom from the beginning, wanted no man's hand to even SHAPE a stone for the alter of His sacrifice, suddenly tell the Israelites to meticulously make something and follow a strict blueprint of something as far as how the worship and giving of praise should be like by a chosen few AND THEN ONLY TO ABOLISH ALL OF IT BY HAVING JESUS TAKE THAT PRIESTHOOD AWAY FROM THEM AND GIVE IT TO COMMON MAN?
ETcallhome Posted: BTW, if you READ the whole chapter of I Cprinthians 14, you will find that the very order and leadership in worship you and the author of this artcile are trying to denounce, is the very thing Paul is ESTABLISHING IN THE CHRUCH.
God is a God of ORDER AND WHERE THERE IS DISORDER AND CONFUSION GOD IS NOT IN THE MIX!
Paul is teaching them ORDER, as the passage states, everybody can't have a song, or a word, or a tongue, or a prophecy, somebody has to lead and others keep silent and not try to out do each other. READ the chapter, Paul establishes the order of worship service under leadership.
ME: Good point, sister. I'll go you one better though. If you READ THE WHOLE LETTER TO THE CORINTHIANS (which is what it is supposed to be. A letter to the WHOLE CHURCH AND NOT TO ONE LEADER OF IT, because if there was a certain leader, HE OR THEY WOULD HAVE BEEN MENTIONED OR BEEN HELD RESPONSIBLE FOR IT..), you'll see that it was to A GROUP OF PEOPLE WHO WERE ABUSING THE THINGS HE SPENT TWO YEARS ENCOURAGING THEM TO DO BEFORE HE LEFT THEM ALONE TO THEMSELVES AND THE HOLY SPIRIT TO GUIDE.
Read the whole letter sister and you'll see that EVERYONE IS TO FULLY ACTIVELY EXERCISE THEIR GIFTS TO ONE ANOTHER AT THE GATHERINGS TO EDIFY EACH OTHER ONE AT A TIME IN AN ORDERLY FASHION AS COMMANDED BY GOD.
And if Paul is saying that SOMEBODY HAS TO LEAD IT, THEN WHY DOESN'T HE NAME A LEADER THERE SINCE HE KNEW THE PEOPLE THERE INTIMATELY FOR TWO YEARS? Any guesses as to whom this leadership was given to?
I mean he rebukes all of them. He tells THEM ALL that THEY ALL SHOULD JUDGE EVERY MATTER WITHIN THE GATHERINGS BECAUSE THEY ARE ALL GOING TO BE JUDGING ANGELS AND you are saying that Paul is telling them that they need leader instead of reminding them that God has empowered them to be heavenly judges? Where do you even get half of what you are saying, sister?
I mean, seriously. Is that what you have been learning in order to become a woman pastor in your college?
Out of curiosity. Where and what college is this, ET?
No that is not true, at all, not to mention those that have rejected the person of The Holy Ghost can not come in and intellectually speak on what he is saying.
Those being spoken to all had received the gift of The Holy Ghost, it is right in the epistle if any has an ear to hear.
Their is no such teaching as a body of believers called together by the Spirit of God to not be under spiritual leadership.
The main ministry of an Apostle is to start Churches and to raise up leadership under the head of the church.
Some act as though there where ready made Pastors waiting for a congregation to be born, the Church was in baby hood stage of Growth Pastors had to be raised up, just as congregation's did.
PJ, shouldn't you be sitting on Moses' seat and leading the rest of the Sanhedrin into some serious persecution of the followers of Christ somewhere, bro?
Cause i swear that I saw some Pharisee looking for their leader in the Phorum earlier.
Seriously, bro.
Go make another topic on someone that "irked" you because he didn't fit your version of the truth and showed Scripture to back his view up, unlike you.
Oh, by the way, you dropped your phylactery, brother. I don't want you walking around without that thing marked on your forehead, cause i know that you pride yourself in showing it so much.
PJ Posted: You can mock all you want, but what I share I have been walking in for twenty five yr's your are to late to try and tell me Jesus is a liar.
You will find those walk according to the tradition's of men and in the flesh very quickly get into anger when believer's will not agree with them.
ME: PJ, seriously, bro. In all your years of reading, I'm sure that you would be the first to agree that The Jews whom God chose to reveal His Word through didn't come to understand the full meaning of what He conveyed no matter how long they were "in it". With that being said, it's not how long you've been on the road that counts. It's what you've seen and where this road has taken you that counts.
And thank you for revealing yourself again with your very words of how angrily you react when others don't agree with your taught traditions by making topics to goad people into commenting in them like you have done and keep doing, brother. I have seen you do nothing but that since before i actually joined this site and created an account here. You do nothing but cause strife and insult others for making topics that you can't prove wrong or outright can't explain yourself in.
That is the reason why i showed you to be a reviler and one to cause strife before. Ironically, you have adopted the word strife into your vocabulary since then and accuse others of doing this now. Sad, bro. Really sad. Especially since you do nothing but accuse someone or something without making a point backed up with Scripture other than "this is not in agreement with the Word of God" stuff. I've dealt with and debated more respectful, informative, encouraging, agreeable, and humble non-believers who backed their claims with facts and Scripture to prove their claims compared to you. And that really says a lot about the fact that these people are "natural men" and you are not.
Again, I will not neglect to ask you to stop posting your banter in these topics unless you have something that will inform and edify the persons partaking in and silently reading this and other topics. If you cannot then i suggest that you stop posting your vague rhetoric any further so that you do not obfuscate whom ever participates in anything that is presented.
Thanks for your contributions anyways though. I do have hope and faith in your future attempts to join in on anything to be both informative, revealing and edifying though. I am eager to see you do it when, and if you try it, brother.
ME: PJ, seriously, bro. In all your years of reading, I'm sure that you would be the first to agree that The Jews whom God chose to reveal His Word through didn't come to understand the full meaning of what He conveyed no matter how long they were "in it". With that being said, it's not how long you've been on the road that counts. It's what you've seen and where this road has taken you that counts.
DO YOU HAVE ANY IDEA HOW FALSE THIS STATEMENT IS YOU HAVE MADE???????
AND YOU CONTINUALLY MOCK THOSE THAT PROCLAIM THE WORD OF GOD!!!
YOU ARE IN NO WAY REVEAL THE WORD OF GOD IN ANY FORM, IT IS CALLED THE TRADITIONS OF MEN SCRIPTURALLY KNOWN AS TWISTING OR WICKENESS OF SCRIPTURE THE EXACT OPPOSITE AND THE ORIGIN OF IT IS THE KINGDOM OF DARKNESS
Your mocking and scorning of the truth will never change The lord Jesus or those that walk in it.
As I have encouraged you before you can get in right standing with the lord but it will require a major change of will on your part, the further you go down the road the darker it gets.
ME: PJ, seriously, bro. In all your years of reading, I'm sure that you would be the first to agree that The Jews whom God chose to reveal His Word through didn't come to understand the full meaning of what He conveyed no matter how long they were "in it". With that being said, it's not how long you've been on the road that counts. It's what you've seen and where this road has taken you that counts.
PJ VERY ANGRILY Posted this at 9:44 AM:
DO YOU HAVE ANY IDEA HOW FALSE THIS STATEMENT IS YOU HAVE MADE???????
AND YOU CONTINUALLY MOCK THOSE THAT PROCLAIM THE WORD OF GOD!!!
YOU ARE IN NO WAY REVEAL THE WORD OF GOD IN ANY FORM, IT IS CALLED THE TRADITIONS OF MEN SCRIPTURALLY KNOWN AS TWISTING OR WICKENESS OF SCRIPTURE THE EXACT OPPOSITE AND THE ORIGIN OF IT IS THE KINGDOM OF DARKNESS
ME: I see that the ANGRY CAPS LOCK was very strong at the time of this post and that he was either:
1. Angry
2. Convicted and impulsively reacting against the Spirit's pull.
3. Being condemning as usual.
4. Causing rivalry and continuing to try to stir up strife.
5. Offended because i struck a nerve that was a tad too close to home.
Which do you think it was neighbor?
Yeah.
Me too.
I'm so glad we think alike.
Yeah. The later post tipped me off that he is just trying to be combative and argumentative also. I mean he came back to the topic several hours later knowing that i still had not responded to his remarks yet.
Take a look at it.
PJ POSTED THIS AT 1:11 PM: Your mocking and scorning of the truth will never change The lord Jesus or those that walk in it.
As I have encouraged you before you can get in right standing with the lord but it will require a major change of will on your part, the further you go down the road the darker it gets.
ME: As he has "encouraged" me before he says. This man has no idea of what encouragement is unless it is followed with insults and strife. Poor man. I feel sorry for him because it is harder for men like this to try to live a life of love and peace in Christ much less try to display it to anyone.
I am still praying for you, brother. I love you more than you will ever comprehend, my brother. Although I know that you may not be able to accept the love of Christ upon yourself, bro, I am bound and honored to be one to tell you that I whole heartedly feel it towards to the our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, brother. May His peace and fulness of Love richly indwell your heart, Phil.
