PRedestianting those that He forknew is not the same as just choosing and maing it happen
Posted : 1 Mar, 2012 08:15 PM
I am sick to death of arguing about predestination!
scripture plainly states who was predestinanted, the ones who were predestinanted are the ones God forknew, forknew what? well He forknew that they would believe and accept Jesus Christ as Lord, so that is exactly opposit of what calcinist say, they say God just randomly picked people for no apparnet reason and gave them faith , let me quote an article that holdingoutforhope posted earlier
so that he chooses precisely him whom he foreknew would believe in him; and to him he gives the Holy Spirit, so that by doing good works he will as well attain eternal life.
Now thats from an article that is suposed to be arguing against armainiens
let me clear the air, armainiens or let me say I am well aware I didnt save myself, I am sick of the smugg comments that imply we think we save ourselfs, we know jesus did the work at the cross and his blood is what saves us through faith
as a matter of fact we know that we dont choose God we know that we dont choose to get saved, we know that God puts a call on you and draws you to him before you can ever even begin to think of becoming saved, we know that within our own hearts we would never choose God, this is a fact and we are aware!
The only thing that we differ on is the fact that we can chose to reject the call of God, thats it thats the one thing and I reject the notion that God doesnt do anything according to what men do!thats ludacris
in the book of jonah God caled Jonah to go to nineveh, but jonah didnt want to we all kow the story about jonah and the fish!
But think about this in the end Jonah did go to nineveh to preach what the Lord told hin topreach, it doesnt ever say exactly what the lord said to preach but what it does say is that Jonah told the people of nineveh that in fourty days they would be over thrown!
But the people of nineveh repented and God spared them, based on Jonahs reluctant and late obedience God spared 100,000 people and many cattle!
Now God told Jonah obviously that nineveh would be overthrown he told jonah to tell them that they would be over thrown
If God did not intend to destroy or have the city overthrown allow it to e overthrown or whatever then that would make God a liar and we know he is not a liar!
In the end of the story its obvious that God repented from bring punishment on nineveh as a result of jonah preaching to them and their repentence,
Isnt that an example of God planing on destroy someone who isnt saved and wont repent and then that person hearing the word and we know faith comes buy hearing , and then they repented and God also repented from his wrath?
I mean does that sound like the calvinist god that just decides how things are going to be and makes them that way? I dont thnk so God gave nineveh a choice and he also gave jonah a choice, granted jonah had some strong encouragment, but while in the fishes belly he repented as well and agreed to be obedient
so faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word!
If nineveh had not repented if they had cntined in their wickedness then they would have been destroyed!
IF
IF
IF
But God had mercy on them, it was his intention to destroy them
IF!
I already know that there are a million expalnations for the example I have found that supports my point of veiw and I dont really care I am not trying to argue as some others are and like some others think I am!
HEre is what I know, I know beyond a shadow of a doubt that I had a choice when I got saved, I most certainly could have chosen to continue to rebel and turn my back. I had been doign it for years !
I also know that God choosing those that he forknew would come to repentence is not predestination as the calivinists state it, predestination is based onGod forknowing what we will do.
If never not one time sayd God predestinanted those hat he just decided he wanted to save
It says he predestianted those that he forknew (would come to repentence) thats all ther is to it, so quote that scripture all you want to read it over and over you are only making my case for me!
Go knows who will and who wont choose him, that makes much more sence that he just decides who will and wont choose him
furthermore and I have said this before
Gods soverignty afords him the right and the power to give us a choice, His soverginty does not put him inside of a box where he cant make the rules as he wants to,God sets the rules and he wants us to want to choose him!
Saying we cant choose hi becasue it takes his soverignty is small minded and that satement in itself takes away Gods soverginty!
HE can set the rules as he wishes and its his wish that we choose him, or shall I say that we have a choice, he actuly does the choosing he calls us but we certainlky have an opportunity to reject the calling!
If we didnt have that choice to actuly reject or heed Gods call onour hearts then whats the point in any of it? Why ouldnt He just take those he chose right on up to heaven and forget all this life, isnt that the goal? If he is just choosing people randomly or not randomly but just choosing on a whim at his disgretion then whats the point in this life?
Isnt it at least possible that God has set the rules up in such a way that he calls onour heart an woos us showing us that he is good but we still have the ultimate choice toreject him if we so decide to?
I am goingt o say this again I t really ticks me off when they say we think we save ourself, that is a gross misstatement! No one thinks they save their self all we kow is if we wanted to continue inouir rebelion God would not stop us, and he would until a point contine to deal with us until he either turns us over to a reprebate mind, we die, or we finaly give in and repent and take up our cross and follow him!
Please I dont want to argue I am so sick of arguing!
This is the only thing that makes sence I dont even think its all armainien I think armaniens and calvinists are both wrong, I think the truth is in the middle somewhere but neither side will admit that the otherone has any truth to it at al and thats pride I admit calvinism has some truth to it, but its no all truth someolf it is garbage, and the same with armainins so e truth some garbage! I am not too proud to admit when I am wrong or admit I stil have things to learn but I do not want to argue and I do not ever respond well to someone aproaching with wioth a i am right and you are wrong atitude!
again I am awasre without the ativity of the holy spirit in my life I could never be saved, I admit God has to call someone OI admit that Jesus died for the ones God knew would get saved! But God did not just choose wil nilly whom he would saved he predestinated those he forknew thats it , those that he forknew those are the ones Jesus died for , all that measn is God knew who would and wouldnt accept and those are theones Jesus died for, but each and every person that would have chosen Jesus could have been in that catagory its a matter of God nowing they wouldnt
If they werent going to choose christ its not even worth discussing its a mute point becaus the bllod cant be for someone who wont ever have faith but if they had of had faith then the blood would have been for them, if they didnt choose to heed the call that is their fault not Gods choice!
PS we sin becasue we are born sinners not the opposit of being sinners becasue we sin,
we are all born with the exact same condition and the exact same opportunity , the reason we are predestianted is that God knew what we would do in advance becasue well duh he is God and he knows the begining from the end it doesnt mena he drwew a name out of a hat!
So now that I have repeated myself about 5 times I will end this ranting
Stil dont want to argue with anyone I amsick of arguing its getting old to the point of I amabout to bow out of the forums
PRedestianting those that He forknew is not the same as just choosing and maing it happen
Posted : 1 Mar, 2012 11:06 PM
I�ve been away for a while (quite busy)�but it seems that things have not changed here at all. This is an issue that has been argued and argued�and argued. Tell me what you think of this Logic:
God is Omniscient. God KNOWS Everything. God is not hampered by Time as we know it. God is Outside of Time�Truth is�God Created Time. God can go anywhere in Time�backwards in Time or forwards in Time. God KNOWS everything that will happen in Time. God can Change those events�God can Alter the Future.
So�my Point is that since God Knows EVERYTHING�God has FOREKNOWLEDGE of just who Will or Will Not Believe in Him! I will repeat that
��God has FOREKNOWLEDGE of just who Will or Will Not Believe in Him!�
God knew Before you were born�if you would eventually Believe in Him. Therefore in that sense�you were �Chosen� by God.
You see�God does not Force His Will on anyone. To do that would be silly! It would be the action of a �Madman�! To Force someone to Love you and then to say and think��Oh�they Love Me!�.
No�God gives us Free Will. He Waits for us to make that first step�but all it takes is just a simple thought to begin that process where The Holy Spirit Grabs us and does His Amazing Work!
Predestination goes back to even the Apostolic Age and even St. Augustine toyed with the idea and Calvin Swallowed that Doctrine whole and wrote a �New Gospel� with it and more of his own thoughts.
Sacred Scripture was written by men in their own fashion and style to a population that had heard these same men preach and speak on the subject. Much of what is in Holy Scripture was Understood back then and whenever someone was confused they could go to Church Elders (Priests and Bishops) that either heard it from The Apostles or from those that were Taught by The Apostles.
These �Truths��this �Full Deposit of Faith��was given to The Apostles and The Church by Christ Himself and was told by Christ to ��hold firm to these Traditions�� and to Vouchsafe them. Christ also gave His Church The Holy Spirit to Insure that His Teachings would not be Corrupted and Remain Intact until His Return.
The Church has the Answers to your Questions about Holy Scripture�about Predestination. That is why Jesus Established His Church as a Teaching Church. So as to be able to Answer our Questions. So that God�s Plan of Salvation would not go Spinning through Time like a top�being pulled here and there by mankind. So that Jesus� Teachings would not end up being altered and twisted by mankind.
Whoops�went off on a tangent!
We are children. We �Play� at being adults and we try to Interpret Scripture as best we can and then we look for others that agree with us. That is how One Church that stood for over 1500 years has now become over 33,000 �Different� churches�all based on Scripture. We all Love God and Jesus! We all want to do His Will. Yet we are Scattered and we end up Bickering and Fighting amongst ourselves and the dark one is howling with glee. But I guess that is the way it has to be.
I Love you guys! God Bless all of you! Listen to Jude! Do as she says and Say As She Do (or something like that).
PRedestianting those that He forknew is not the same as just choosing and maing it happen
Posted : 1 Mar, 2012 11:15 PM
Archimedes you speak against bickering and I agree with you. Tell me though, if one thinks your doctrine on salvation is in opposition to scripture, should he just not say anything? I mean even you just spoke up and gave your view on free will. You didn't give any scripture for it, although you talked about scripture. Yes God foreknew everything. However that's not what the verse in the OP is stating.
PRedestianting those that He forknew is not the same as just choosing and maing it happen
Posted : 2 Mar, 2012 12:05 PM
First of all, back up your that the quote is from an article I posted where the intent of the quote is to prove God foreknew they would have faith. Second of all, nobody who agrees with reformed theology agrees with that quote...
This statement is as all the statements made evidence of the lack of knowledge of The Truth, and with out the truth no man can be a doer of The word.
No man has a case as a Christian, he does have the privilege to know the lord Jesus Christ, and then proclaim and his sacrifice for mankind and his redemption to mankind.
To know and understand his lordship to the believer and as the head of the Church.
Calvinism denys these simple facts as they elevate themselves above the word of God proclaiming their opinion of truth as the truth and then condemning any that will not accept their opinion.
Fact
This man Jesus was sent to the earth by Love himself to be the sacrificial lamb for mankind.
And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
His promise is to all who Believe:
Your promise is none can believe, well actually that is not a promise but it is the answer of calvinsm to the truth this man Jesus.
PRedestianting those that He forknew is not the same as just choosing and maing it happen
Posted : 2 Mar, 2012 12:15 PM
"This statement is as all the statements made evidence of the lack of knowledge of The Truth, and with out the truth no man can be a doer of The word."
PJ, I said that nobody who agrees with reformed theology agreed with her quote. Tell me how that lacks knowledge. Yes for once, don't just make sweeping generalizations, but show how it is so.
"Calvinism denys these simple facts as they elevate themselves above the word of God proclaiming their opinion of truth as the truth and then condemning any that will not accept their opinion."
In this thread we have seen one side deal with the scriptures and the other appeal to man's emotions. I'd say this thread contradicts what you have just said.
