is there ANY evidence of a hierarchy WITHIN the Trinity...
Posted : 23 Jan, 2012 01:01 PM
Within the Scriptures? Seriously, I was just pondering about the wonders of our Lord and it suddenly dawned on me.
The Scriptures really don't show a hierarchy within the Godhead anywhere in the Scriptures of the three essences with the exception of Jesus leaving all of His majesty, honor, authority, and power on the throne to become a man and be subject to the Father. But other than that part of the Scriptures ALL THREE ARE EQUAL in power and authority from one another.
I honestly think that the only ones who separate the "authority" between the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit is mankind because we tend to put a "label" on something in order to make it easier to understand it on our human terms.
What do you think? Is there such a thing as a hierarchy between the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit in the Scriptures? If so, then please present the Scriptures to show it so that we may all learn from it.
By the way, this is purely for discussion purposes and not to bash anyone's knowledge of anything here. So the Phorum Pharisitically minded people please be peaceable or stay out of the topic.
is there ANY evidence of a hierarchy WITHIN the Trinity...
Posted : 24 Jan, 2012 05:10 PM
Agapeton, you're too cute!call it what you may, but I will correct error... and in reading this thread, everyone can decide for themsleves what is correct, and what isn't... what they will believe and what they will not... what God's Word says, and what it doesn't say...but one thing we do know for sure is, that Jesus DID NOT COMPARE OR EVEN CONSIDER HIMSELF AS BEING EQUAL TO GOD IN HIS EARTHY LIFE ON EARTH AND EVNE SO NOW IN HEAVEN... Otheiwse He would have knowledge of His own return to set UP HIS ETERNAL KINGDOM ... but He lets us know that not He nor the angels in heaven knows when this will be, ONLY GOD THE FATHER, therefore, it is as I have said, GOD IS THE HEAD OF HIS OWN DIVINE HIERARCHY AND DIETY, because He is the ONLY One who give the orders even to Jesus His Son, as the Father to the Son and the Holy Spirit, and the heavenly host, and to you and me, and everybody else.
We, as believers are to have the MIND of Christ as servants in humble obedience to thoe in authority over us, whether you like the idea or not... :rocknroll:Have a drink on the house with your dinner:Mug:... CONTRARAY TO POPULAR BELIEF OF MANKIND... man DID NOT CREATE AUTHORITY, GOD CREATED AUTHORITY.
is there ANY evidence of a hierarchy WITHIN the Trinity...
Posted : 24 Jan, 2012 05:26 PM
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is there ANY evidence of a hierarchy WITHIN the Trinity...
Posted : 24 Jan, 2012 05:10 PM
Agapeton, you're too cute!call it what you may, but I will correct error...
ME: I'd expect you too IF I HAD MADE ONE, dear sister. But with that you should ALSO EXPECT THE SAME FROM ME WHEN I SHOW YOU YOURS like I did.
and in reading this thread, everyone can decide for themsleves what is correct, and what isn't... what they will believe and what they will not... what God's Word says, and what it doesn't say...
ME: True that, sister. They will so no need to try to distort the Word when it is pretty clear like you just did below with nothing but sheer conjecture. Once you provide Scripture showing that Jesus and the Holy Spirit are subordinates within the Godhead with the exception of Jesus humbling himself and becoming a man and being subject to God the Father, then I will agree. Until then, you are worng until the rest of Christianity sees your view.
We, as believers are to have the MIND of Christ as servants in humble obedience to thoe in authority over us, whether you like the idea or not... Have a drink on the house with your dinner... CONTRARAY TO POPULAR BELIEF OF MANKIND... man DID NOT CREATE AUTHORITY, GOD CREATED AUTHORITY.
ME: The Lord told us not to be like the heathens and "lord' things over each other, sister. The only authority we have in the Body is Christ.
I love you, my sweet sister. And not because it is a command either. :)
is there ANY evidence of a hierarchy WITHIN the Trinity...
Posted : 24 Jan, 2012 06:11 PM
Agapeton, surely, you have read the gospels about Jesus earthly ministry and His relationship with The Father?... this alone should let you know that Jesus was under God's authority.
Also, because I aprreciate your zeal for elarning and undertsanding the gospel, I have taken away from my time of doing my work, but this is God's word, becasue not onyl you have need to know and undertsand the diety and subordanition of Jesus to the Father, so do others who may now know... because you cannot continue to lean to your own undertsanding of teh Word without ebing corrected... but don;t you get on my last nerve whith your hardhead-little self resisting authority of God's turth. I would care less of what you say to me or think of me, but you had better receive what God says in His word for your own correct understanding and spiritual growth...
But I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man,and the HEAD OF CHRIST IS GOD. I Corinthians 11:3
I Corinthians 15: 22 For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him. Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power. For he(JESUS) must reign until he (GOD) has put all his enemies under his feet. The last enemy to be destroyed is death. 27 For he (GOD)�has put everything under his (JESUS'S) feet.� Now when it says that �everything� has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ. When he (GOD) has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him (GOD) who put everything under him (JESUS), so that God may be all in all.
John 5:19,22,27,30 Therefore Jesus answered and was saying to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of Himself, unless it is something He sees the Father doing; for whatever the Father does, these things the Son also does in like manner. . . . For not even the Father judges anyone, but He has given all judgment to the Son, . . . and He gave Him authority to execute judgment, because He is the Son of Man. . . . I can do nothing on My own initiative. As I hear, I judge; and My judgment is just, because I do not seek My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me."
John 7:28 'Then Jesus cried out in the temple, teaching and saying, "You both know Me and know where I am from; and I have not come of Myself, but He who sent Me is true, whom you do not know.'
John 8:42 'Jesus said to them, "If God were your Father, you would love Me, for I proceeded forth and have come from God, for I have not even come on My own initiative, but He sent Me.'
John 12:49 "For I did not speak on My own initiative, but the Father Himself who sent Me has given Me a commandment as to what to say and what to speak."
John 14:24,28 "He who does not love Me does not keep My words; and the word which you hear is not Mine, but the Father's who sent Me. . . I go to the Father, FOR THE FATHER IS GREATER THAN I."
God Never says that Jesus is His God, or Father, BUT JESUS CALLS GOD HIS FATHER AND HIS GOD in John 20:17, and Ephesians 1:17; and Revelation 3:12.
God gave Jesus authority and power over all things as described in Colossians and throughout the gospels and Pauls writings, and when God has accomplished His work in Jesus then Jesus will turn the riengs over to God to rule... That;s BIble, Ella didn't say these things, and if you would take time to READ with the guidence of the Holy Spirit and not your own things you will come into a btter unferstanding of what it all means.
And I love you tooo, and not becasue it is a command... but just because... and I ain't mad at ya, but I will give you a Holy Ghost beat-down out of my love for the truth of God's Word,first, and... then just becasue I love ya... so give me a big hug and juicy kiiss ((((((((((hug-hug))))))
Don't just read the scripture passage, READ THE WHOLE CHAPTERS OF THESE PASSAGES.
is there ANY evidence of a hierarchy WITHIN the Trinity...
Posted : 24 Jan, 2012 06:12 PM
Agapeton, surely, you have read the gospels about Jesus earthly ministry and His relationship with The Father?... this alone should let you know that Jesus was under God's authority.
Also, because I aprreciate your zeal for elarning and undertsanding the gospel, I have taken away from my time of doing my work, but this is God's word, becasue not onyl you have need to know and undertsand the diety and subordanition of Jesus to the Father, so do others who may now know... because you cannot continue to lean to your own undertsanding of teh Word without ebing corrected... but don;t you get on my last nerve whith your hardhead-little self resisting authority of God's turth. I would care less of what you say to me or think of me, but you had better receive what God says in His word for your own correct understanding and spiritual growth...
But I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man,and the HEAD OF CHRIST IS GOD. I Corinthians 11:3
I Corinthians 15: 22 For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him. Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power. For he(JESUS) must reign until he (GOD) has put all his enemies under his feet. The last enemy to be destroyed is death. 27 For he (GOD)�has put everything under his (JESUS'S) feet.� Now when it says that �everything� has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ. When he (GOD) has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him (GOD) who put everything under him (JESUS), so that God may be all in all.
John 5:19,22,27,30 Therefore Jesus answered and was saying to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of Himself, unless it is something He sees the Father doing; for whatever the Father does, these things the Son also does in like manner. . . . For not even the Father judges anyone, but He has given all judgment to the Son, . . . and He gave Him authority to execute judgment, because He is the Son of Man. . . . I can do nothing on My own initiative. As I hear, I judge; and My judgment is just, because I do not seek My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me."
John 7:28 'Then Jesus cried out in the temple, teaching and saying, "You both know Me and know where I am from; and I have not come of Myself, but He who sent Me is true, whom you do not know.'
John 8:42 'Jesus said to them, "If God were your Father, you would love Me, for I proceeded forth and have come from God, for I have not even come on My own initiative, but He sent Me.'
John 12:49 "For I did not speak on My own initiative, but the Father Himself who sent Me has given Me a commandment as to what to say and what to speak."
John 14:24,28 "He who does not love Me does not keep My words; and the word which you hear is not Mine, but the Father's who sent Me. . . I go to the Father, FOR THE FATHER IS GREATER THAN I."
God Never says that Jesus is His God, or Father, BUT JESUS CALLS GOD HIS FATHER AND HIS GOD in John 20:17, and Ephesians 1:17; and Revelation 3:12.
God gave Jesus authority and power over all things as described in Colossians and throughout the gospels and Pauls writings, and when God has accomplished His work in Jesus then Jesus will turn the riengs over to God to rule... That;s BIble, Ella didn't say these things, and if you would take time to READ with the guidence of the Holy Spirit and not your own things you will come into a btter unferstanding of what it all means.
And I love you tooo, and not becasue it is a command... but just because... and I ain't mad at ya, but I will give you a Holy Ghost beat-down out of my love for the truth of God's Word,first, and... then just becasue I love ya... so give me a big hug and juicy kiiss ((((((((((hug-hug))))))
Don't just read the scripture passage, READ THE WHOLE CHAPTERS OF THESE PASSAGES.
is there ANY evidence of a hierarchy WITHIN the Trinity...
Posted : 24 Jan, 2012 07:24 PM
Agapeton, surely, you have read the gospels about Jesus earthly ministry and His relationship with The Father?... this alone should let you know that Jesus was under God's authority.
ME: Honey, I read the gospels and I will say it AGAIN IN HOPES OF YOUR COMING TO GRASP THIS IDEA. Jesus' AUTHORITY WAS, IS,AND FOREVER WILL BE THE SAME IN THE GODHEAD AS AN EQUAL PERSON ALONG SIDE THE HOLY SPIRIT AND GOD THE FATHER.
Also, because I aprreciate your zeal for elarning and undertsanding the gospel, I have taken away from my time of doing my work, but this is God's word, becasue not onyl you have need to know and undertsand the diety and subordanition of Jesus to the Father, so do others who may now know... because you cannot continue to lean to your own undertsanding of teh Word without ebing corrected... but don;t you get on my last nerve whith your hardhead-little self resisting authority of God's turth. I would care less of what you say to me or think of me, but you had better receive what God says in His word for your own correct understanding and spiritual growth...
ME: Sister, You honestly have to do one thing right. And if the way that you are doing your work is the same way you are typing this, then do yourself a favor and do your work, because you've still not gotten a hold of the reality that Jesus IS THE FULLNESS OF DEITY WITHIN THE GODHEAD MEANING THERE ARE NO SUBORDINATES WITHIN IT BECAUSE THERE IS NO SCRIPTURE TO SHOW FOR IT. The Only ones that people TRY to use are the ones regarding Jesus' earthly ministry and they are in NO WAY DISCRIPTIVE OF THE GODHEAD PRE-JESUS' MINISTRY. If we do see the relationship between Father and Son we see that they are intermingled to the point that they cannot be separated. Even the ones you used show it.
But I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man,and the HEAD OF CHRIST IS GOD. I Corinthians 11:3
ME: Again sister, within context, this verse is showing the authoritative role of the woman and man and their view of relationship. And to even try to use that in context of the Godhead is flat out sad because if we can do that then we can also conclude that Paul is over mankind since he imitates Christ (1 Cor. 11:1). So no dice sister. Try again. But this time when you do try, remember the usage of context. OK? K. :)
I Corinthians 15: 22 For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him. Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power. For he(JESUS) must reign until he (GOD) has put all his enemies under his feet. The last enemy to be destroyed is death. 27 For he (GOD)�has put everything under his (JESUS'S) feet.� Now when it says that �everything� has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ. When he (GOD) has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him (GOD) who put everything under him (JESUS), so that God may be all in all.
ME: This is concerning the reign of the Son of Man, Jesus upon the throne until the end of days when all things will be restored. It has nothing to do with the hierarchy of the Godhead, sister. As a matter of fact, In Revelation it shows that God and the Lamb are both in the same throne and being worshiped so how can Jesus be subject to him and still be in the midst of the throne?
John 5:19,22,27,30 Therefore Jesus answered and was saying to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, THE SON CAN DO NOTHING OF HIMSELF, unless it is something He sees the Father doing; for WHATEVER THE FATHER DOES, THESE THINGS THE SON DOES IN LIKE MANNER
ME: By the way, you missed a few verses. . They also show the relationship between the Father and the Son as being EQUAL. .
Joh 5:21 For AS THE FATHER RAISES THE DEAD AND GIVES THEM LIFE, SO ALSO THE SON GIVES THEM LIFE TO WHOM HE WILL
22 For not even the Father judges anyone, but He has given all judgment to the Son, . .
Joh 5:23 that all may HONOR THE Son, JUST AS THEY HONOR THE FATHER. Whoever does NOT HONOR THE SON, DOES NOT HONOR THE FATHER who sent him.
Joh 5:26 For AS THE FATHER HAS LIFE IN HIMSELF, SO HE HAS GRANTED THE SON ALSO TO HAVE LIFE IN HIMSELF.
Oh and the john 14;24, 28 one is sweet, by the way. I could have sworn you used Jehovah's Witness ideology for a second, sister because they use a lot of what you do to try to say that Jesus isn't God.
Especially this one:
God Never says that Jesus is His God, or Father, BUT JESUS CALLS GOD HIS FATHER AND HIS GOD in John 20:17, and Ephesians 1:17; and Revelation 3:12.
Actually, God the Father calls God the Son His God in Hebrews. The Jay Dubs miss that too for some reason.
Heb 1:8 But of the Son he says, "Your throne, O God, is forever and ever, the scepter of uprightness is the scepter of your kingdom.
Also, God calls Jesus the Father also. The Jay Dubs miss that too, sister. I'm surprised you didn't know this. What is strikingly odd is that you are using a lot of Jay Dub ideology to prove your points.
Isa 9:6 For to us a child is born, to us a son is given; and the government shall be upon his shoulder, and his name shall be called Wonderful Counselor, MIGHTY GOD, EVERLASTING FATHER, Prince of Peace.
Isa 9:7 Of the increase of his government and of peace there will be no end, on the throne of David and over his kingdom, to establish it and to uphold it with justice and with righteousness from this time forth and forevermore. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will do this.
Now, I can continue to show you where you keep using the Jesus got sent bit to show Him becoming humble enough to give up his equality and coming to earth and being subject to the father AS I HAVE BEEN SAYING FOR THE 75000th TIME NOW, or i can keep going in circles with you since you don't want to read anything but your own posts.
But here. Had you read my opening posts within this topic you'd see that (re-post):
The Father loved the Word before the foundation of the world. (John 17:24). The world must learn that Jesus loves the Father (John 14:31). There was a mutual love flowing within the Godhead before the foundation of the world. In Genesis, there is also fellowship within the Godhead (Gen. 1:26) which is actually sharing counsel and planning. They even speak in the same thing at the same time of what they know and see (John 3:11). The Son lives by the life of the Father (5:26; 6:57). The Son shares and expresses the glory of the Father (13:31�32; 17:4�5). The Son lives within the Father and the Father lives within the Son (1:18; 14:10). The Son lives in complete dependence upon the Father (5:19). The Son reflects the Father in His words and deeds (12:49; 14:9). The Father glorifies the Son (1:14; 8:50, 54; 12:23; 16:14; 17:1, 5, 22, 24), and the Son exalts the Father (7:18; 14:13; 17:1, 4; 20:17).
God gave Jesus authority and power over all things as described in Colossians and throughout the gospels and Pauls writings, and when God has accomplished His work in Jesus then Jesus will turn the riengs over to God to rule...
ME: Again, I will not neglect to point out Jesus' earthly ministry and the fact that you mentioned the Collosians epistle is one amazing fact that the first chapter so INTERTWINES Jesus and God the Father so many times that you have a hard time following Whom is individually spoken about there shows how equal they are in the Godhead.
That;s BIble, Ella didn't say these things, and if you would take time to READ with the guidence of the Holy Spirit and not your own things you will come into a btter unferstanding of what it all means.
ME: Honestly sister what you said is still conjecture then posted a few verses to fit your view with nothing to show for it and then say the Bible says it. That isn't anything worth taking to the bank no matter how many times you try to use the Holy Spirit and understanding bit, cause you already made mistakes within this topic as to where i was going with this and flew with it. I guarantee that you will still fly with it after this post but it's expected.
And I love you tooo, and not becasue it is a command... but just because... and I ain't mad at ya, but I will give you a Holy Ghost beat-down out of my love for the truth of God's Word,first, and... then just becasue I love ya... so give me a big hug and juicy kiiss ((((((((((hug-hug))))))
ME: I'll give ya a hug and kiss but the where the heck you getting this "Holy Ghost beat-down part, sis, cause you've done nothing of the sort. You've still not proved anything you've said about Jesus and the Holy Spirit being subordinate within the Godhead as i have requested you to do. But it's OK, because well educated theologians have not found this to be evident, so I hardly find you capable of doing it either, sister.
Don't just read the scripture passage, READ THE WHOLE CHAPTERS OF THESE PASSAGES.
*Inserts shocked looking face icon dude here and says* Are you serious?! You mean to tell me that those verses can be used out of context to fit a twisted view? WOW! Who would have thought of such a thing? :rolleyes: :laugh:
is there ANY evidence of a hierarchy WITHIN the Trinity...
Posted : 24 Jan, 2012 08:29 PM
Thanks for stopping by and making another appearance, PJ. I'm so glad that you've once again stated something that completely makes sense in light of Scripture and needs no explanation once so ever.
Is it wrong of me to actually hope for PJ to grace my topics now? Cause i do hope for it.
Heck, I can honestly say that i look forward to them now.
is there ANY evidence of a hierarchy WITHIN the Trinity...
Posted : 25 Jan, 2012 05:42 AM
Agapeton that hope you speak of is not bible faith you speak of natural hope.
Bible hope comes from the word.
Love does not promote himself
/What you ARE TALKING ABOUT IN EQUALITY Is Love.
From the beginning the sin has been man adding to or taking away from the father, the word of God.
Engaging the Word of God with the mind is not spiritual but mental.
1Co 15:24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
at the verses you used.