Author	Thread: Present Day Reformed Churchs On Who Is Israel
Admin	Present Day Reformed Churchs On Who Is Israel Posted : 3 Jun, 2012 05:13 AM On a large Christian forum, not part of a dating service, which I probably should not name, one of the members said the last few days that: "The NT Church is understood to be the �New Israel.� The Reformed covenant position recognizes a strict continuity between the OT people of God, Israel, and the NT people of God, the Church, the Body of Christ. According to Romans 4:11, 12 and Galatians 3:15-29, Christians are considered the true spiritual seed of Abraham. Reformed writers, Crenshaw and Gunn state, Paul argues in Galatians 3 that God intentionally used seed as a collective noun that has both a singular and plural reference so that the singular reference could refer to Christ and the plural reference could refer to those who are in Christ. Paul�s point is that the Abrahamic promises were made to Abraham and to his seed (vs. 16), that the seed of Abraham is Christ (vs. 16) and all who are in Christ (vs. 29), and that therefore the promise given to Abraham belongs to all who are in Christ (vs. 29), � When Paul was explaining the Old Testament promise that belongs to the Christian, he was referring specifically to the land promise � [Crenshaw and Gunn, 234, 235] Their comment builds upon John Calvin�s views of these passages, who wrote, In a word, he gives the appellation of the Israel of God to those whom he formally denominated the children of Abraham by faith (Gal. 3:29), and thus includes all believers, whether Jews or gentiles, who were united into one Church. [Calvin, 186]" The traditional Reformed teaching did not clearly say that Isreal reborn in Jesus Christ, after Christ, the dresser in the parable of the fig tree of Luke 13: 6-9, cut down Israel to himself alone and then his Apostles and after the Cross to the three thousand born again following Peter's preaching in Acts 2:41, is still the Israel of God, but made a spiritual house (I Peter 2: 5-9). But Calvinism prior to the 19th century start of the falling away did not follow the Catholics in saying that the capital C "church" replaced Israel, nor did the Calvinists say anything like 19th century dispensationalism taught, that God now has two peoples, the Jews and the 'church." Now, after the falling away of II Thessalonians 2: 3-4 is well under way, it appears the Reformed chuches will not accept the position of the Remnant that physical Israel was transformed into israel reborn in Christ, that physical Israel is not the chosen people, but the believers are, and the implications of all this. The Reformed churches will stick to their capital C church identity as a body of Christ, not just a meeting, assembly or conregation of Israel as a spiritual house. In their formal docrines they may not go as far as to say that God now has two peoples, the Jews and the church. And they may not teach against the idea that physical Israel remains the chosen people. "Paul in Romans 4: 13-14 and Galatians 3: 16-29 teaches that all who are in Christ are now the spiritual seed of Abraham by faith. He does not spoon feed us. We have to figure out by what he says that physical descent from Abraham is no longer the way to become the chosen of God. And the problem and importance here is that the teaching that believers, or the elect, are the spiritual heirs of Abraham by faith, and by being in Christ is a part of the Gospel. Contradicting this teaching is not of faith and points to another Gospel and another Christ. Scripture does not contradict itself. If it appears to do so, there is something wrong with your interpretation of scripture." "But Isreal is HATED for the gospel. but LOVED for the promises, because gods GIFTS are irrevocable. God promised that through abraham all the nations would be blessed. and recieve the heavenly promised land. He also promised the physical decedents would recieve the physical land of canaan as a promise forever. Even if I lived in that promised land, I too would rather have the heavenly, But it does nt mean Gods promise to them is not valid. If God renigs on his promise, he lied to abraham, and us." The above is what a different guy on this same forum wrote in the last few days. Here is the opposition between two polarities, one holding to the Gospel of the New Covenant and the New Testament, and the other holding on to the Old Covenant chosen people belief based upon physical descent from Abraham. There should be no consensus using the dialectic between these two opposites. And those holding to the first position, to the Gospel of Christ, and to the transformation of physical Israel into Israel as a spiritual house, reborn in Christ, must not use the dialectic in continual wrestling with the opposite position, because in that process you can began to be processed into the dialectic yourself. Part of the opposing position is the desire to have their version of Christ and at the same time to hold on to the belief that the chosen people status by physical descent continues after Christ died to transform physical Israel into Israel reborn in him. Revelation 2: 9 says "I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan." Arguing, in effect, that physical Israel remains the chosen people because of their physical descent from Abraham when Christ came to the lost sheep of the house of Israel and died on the Cross to transform them into a spiritual house reborn in him, or actually a remnant of them, is like saying one is a Jew but is not a real Jew as Paul defines a real Jew in Romans 2: 29. Those of the Gospel of Christ should just state that position as clearly as they can, and when the opposite side rejects it, leave the argument. Leave the conflict to the Lord. Remember II John 9-10, "Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son. 10. If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed:" Post Reply
View Profile History	Present Day Reformed Churchs On Who Is Israel Posted : 8 Jun, 2012 03:27 PM For him to defend against Calvinism, he would first have to understand what Calvin believed and taught. I am willing to bet he has never read a single one of Calvin's books cover to cover. Post Reply
View Profile History	Present Day Reformed Churchs On Who Is Israel Posted : 8 Jun, 2012 03:34 PM 2Cr 13:5 Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates? Gal 6:4 But let every man prove his own work, and then shall he have rejoicing in himself alone, and not in another. 1Th 5:21 prove all things; hold fast that which is good. *** Hey now...did Yall know that the word [ Prove ] is in the Holy Bible a whole bunch of times ???�Absolutely AMAZING !!!!....xo Post Reply
View Profile History	Present Day Reformed Churchs On Who Is Israel Posted : 8 Jun, 2012 03:44 PM I Peter 3:15 But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear. Post Reply
View Profile History	Present Day Reformed Churchs On Who Is Israel Posted : 8 Jun, 2012 03:47 PM Jude...PJ makes the positive claim that Arminianism is correct and Calvinism is wrong. He never proves this. I have in the past, attempted to engage him on the relevant scriptures. He refuses and instead goes off on tangents. Post Reply
View Profile History	Present Day Reformed Churchs On Who Is Israel Posted : 8 Jun, 2012 04:07 PM Ya...:rolleyes:...I know...every thread gets turned into a BASH the Calvinist instead of a discussion...I aint here to choose sides just to toss in my two bits...Nice add of scripture from the new Gent...xo Post Reply
View Profile History	Present Day Reformed Churchs On Who Is Israel Posted : 8 Jun, 2012 06:49 PM Jude...PJ makes the positive claim that Arminianism is correct and Calvinism is wrong. He never proves this. I have in the past, attempted to engage him on the relevant scriptures. He refuses and instead goes off on tangents. Perfect example of the error and heart of the speaker. Pj has always said there are no Calvinist or Arminianism in the family of God, but this is a classic example of man's manipulatings words to exalt himself. Jude there is no error in scripture and your action of late ring concern for you and where you are at, so eager to partake of the false doctrine. Post Reply
KindHeartedWoman8 View Profile History	Present Day Reformed Churchs On Who Is Israel Posted : 8 Jun, 2012 08:16 PM PJ- They still at it? :laugh: Post Reply
View Profile History	Present Day Reformed Churchs On Who Is Israel Posted : 8 Jun, 2012 08:18 PM See this is what I'm talking about...Jude has made it clear she is not a Calvinist and then you call her out for being eager to participate in false doctrine. Do you have no shame for what you do? Post Reply
View Profile History	Present Day Reformed Churchs On Who Is Israel Posted : 8 Jun, 2012 10:01 PM See this is what I'm talking about...Jude has made it clear she is not a Calvinist and then you call her out for being eager to participate in false doctrine. Do you have no shame for what you do? No one said anything about Jude being a Calvinist so why do make up statement's as if someone else is lying. A christian is never to fellowship with evil, know I did not say any one was evil but I do clearly say, the doctrine is evil. Post Reply
View Profile History	Present Day Reformed Churchs On Who Is Israel Posted : 8 Jun, 2012 10:06 PM So Jude critiques us and then states that these threads usually turn into bash the Calvinist thread and you somehow interpret that as fellowship with evil? That's a little bit of a reach. There is about one person who still respects you on this site and that's Kindhearted. And to that point, she only does so to disagree with Calvinists. She is not even aware of why she agrees with you other than that. Post Reply

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