To say that God the Father has purposed the salvation of all mankind, that God the Son died with the express intention of saving the whole human race, and that God the Holy Spirit is now seeking to win the world to Christ; when, as a matter of common observation, it is apparent that the great majority of our fellow-men are dying in sin, and passing into a hopeless eternity: is to say that God the Father is disappointed, that God the Son is dissatisfied, and that God the Holy Spirit is defeated.
Often times there isn't much study. Many times there is division because each person wants to say that God told them they are right and they can't question God. These scriptures dealing with election and what not are not even difficult to understand. People just don't like the implication that follows them being true so they try to explain them away or say that God told them there is another way.
Yes I am absolutely secure. There are holes in my theology. However the issue of who does the choosing is not one of them. You seem to think it's okay for God to tell me one way and right and tell you another way is right. There is only one truth. You haven't even really dealt with the scriptures I've posted it. You've ignored them and placed the focus on me. That is a sign that you cannot defend your beliefs against the scriptures I posted. There is no harm in that. You might need to change what you believe. Do you disagree that the scriptures I have given have clearly shown God is the one who chooses? If so, can you show from scripture where I was in error?
like I said I believe in both predestination and freewill. So their is no skism in the scriptures youve posted.
As far as my trying to convince you of what i believe. I see no need for such a exercise. Not that I can not defend what I believe only that Ive been down that road for many years and when you become weary of such a thing you will understand that it is vanity.
You said you believe in both but you have not shown how God can choose and man can choose. That doesn't account for those who are not chosen, which flies in the face of your view that salvation is available to all men. If God chooses some to salvation then salvation is not available to all. You still need to explain this.
Yes I too get weary of doing this. I guess everyone should just take your word that you can defend your views from scripture. I think everyone can read the thread and see who have shown their side from scripture and who has just told us to believe them because they hear a still small voice, which is also not a concept taught in scripture.
GUD: "One act of righteousness leads to life for all in what what? Clearly for all those who are in Christ. Nowhere does it say there was a free gift for all. You say that I'm not being fair with the text, but you are adding what is not there because you believe the free gift to be for all. Scripture doesn't teach this those. Scripture teaches that the gift is for all who believe. The question is who will believe."
:bouncy:No, not clearly:laugh:. We can skip where it says "free gift". The verse says all men, several times, in the same way(or much more so) that sin came to all men. It's not just words and interpretations and context, it's a logical argument built into the verse itself. Sin came to all men. Life came to all men.
New American Standard Bible
For it is for this we labor and strive, because we have fixed our hope on the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of believers.
King James
For therefore we both labor and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of those that believe.
GUD: "And why not? You have to look at context and not just words. "World" most of the time never means "all people everywhere". So it's actually more of a stretch to assume it does here. I am not changing words around but rather trying to understand what words mean within their context."
:bouncy:But it seems like "most of the time" is only because you don't believe it does, and not because the verses don't support it. It's very easy for one to just "say" that it doesn't mean all men even though that's what it says. I'm not positive about this, but I believe even John Calvin supported the idea that Jesus died for all men. It maximizes his glory and leaves all unbelievers without excuse.
GUD: "Satan believes. We are talking about saving faith. As far as the meaning of words, I've been trying to teach you this exact principle in this thread. It seems you understand words have different meanings when it benefits you."
:bouncy:I do believe words have different meanings, yes. I wouldn't say it's when it benefits me as much as it upholds what I believe is the truth. I'm sure it's not a game to you, and it's not to me either. We were talking about spiritually dead people believing the truth and Satan does believe. It's probably a little different scenario since he was perfect and fell. I would still like to see a verse though.
GUD: 44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day. John 6:44
:bouncy:God gave all things to Jesus.
"And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me."
GUD: "It's all a work of God. Do you see in there where it was man who did something? Even the faith is a gift."
:bouncy:Yes, I agree. And God gave every man a measure of faith and the will to exercise it.
�Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who practices sin is a slave to sin."
:bouncy: We were all slaves to sin at some point.
GUD: "Notice what man is not capable of doing and notice that those who hear and believe are those who are of God. "
:bouncy:Later in the same chapter, he's asking them to believe. I believe that people can become sheep. Even if they don't believe at some point in their lives, they may later.
"If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not. But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him."
"But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name."
"And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient, In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth; And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will."
As far as Romans 9 goes, it's definitely a difficult chapter to explain for my beliefs, but it's not impossible. And I believe a difficult chapter is not to be held apart as the point that reinterprets the bible. In my view there are many verses that hold to what I believe, many more than one place in Romans. I will try to explain though. There is another verse that uses similar language(2 Tim 2:20), but I think that the context of Romans 9 isn't about salvation. It's about Jews and Gentiles and it's about God calling people for service, or God compelling people do something for him, or God calling people to follow him. God chose Jacob to bring the messiah into the world, and not Esau, BUT that doesn't mean that salvation wasn't offered to Esau or any of his descendants or that all Jacob's seed will be saved(indicated in verses 6-8). As far as pharaoh goes, God compelled him to release his people. The text says that God hardened Pharaohs heart a few times, and the majority of the time, Pharaoh hardened his own heart. Pharaoh even agreed to let them go a couple times and changed his mind. But again, nothing to do with salvation. Pharaoh was a god in his culture, and having a slave come and command that their God was saying that he needed to let all his workers go would have hardened his heart. Having his magicians perform similar miracles made him even more steadfast in his pride.
"There is an old familiar illustration which says that the same sun will melt the wax but harden the clay. It is the character of, or the condition of, the element and not the sun that melts the wax and hardens the clay. God is not going to harden you. He did not harden Pharaoh's heart. Pharaoh already possessed a hard heart, and God only brought that fact out into the open."
"And whosoever shall fall on this stone shall be broken: but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder."
"Then God saw their works, that they turned from their evil way; and God relented from the disaster that He had said He would bring upon them, and He did not do it."
It may have even been possible for Pharaoh to repent. If you believe that God is this controlling and forceful, then Israel was an utter failure on God's part. God chose them, and promised them, and they failed God, not the other way around. In Romans 9, God is saying that he can choose to honor whomever he will, and who he chooses to honor is not simply because someone was born into a certain gene pool, it's because they follow and desire him. And then at the end of the chapter:
"What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith. But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness. Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone; As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed."
There's faith/belief again.
I do believe that it is all God. If God didn't move, we would never seek him. We're entirely self-centered. Thank God he is present in the world, and seeking to bring all men to a knowledge of the truth. He doesn't want anyone to perish, he has no pleasure in the death of the wicked, so just that alone would imply that his motives are moving him in the direction to give everyone the same chance. All we do is have faith, and I believe every man has a measure of faith. I believe every man has had "seed" scattered in his heart. Some never acknowledge it, some accept it for a while, some grow for quite some time but get choked out, and some bear fruit. So basically, God spread the seed, God gave us the faith to believe, God paid the price, God purifies. It's rather silly to think that simply believing the truth earns us any merit, especially when the debt is so massive and the gift is so priceless. And having faith/belief is so easy that a child can do it, so there is no room for boasting because one believes and one doesn't.
"I say unto you, that likewise joy shall be in heaven over one sinner that repenteth, more than over ninety and nine just persons, which need no repentance."
"It was meet that we should make merry, and be glad: for this thy brother was dead, and is alive again; and was lost, and is found."
You - "The verse says all men, several times, in the same way(or much more so) that sin came to all men. It's not just words and interpretations and context, it's a logical argument built into the verse itself. Sin came to all men. Life came to all men."
Me - You want to claim it's in the same way but you deny it in your interpretation. To claim it came on them in the exact same way is to to claim that all men received life. Clearly not all men received life so life clearly came on men in a different way. What way is that? Life came to those who believe. I've given sufficient scriptures to show who does the choosing, so in light of that, my interpretation is much more consistent.
You - "But it seems like "most of the time" is only because you don't believe it does, and not because the verses don't support it. It's very easy for one to just "say" that it doesn't mean all men even though that's what it says."
Me - No, go look through John's writings and tell me how often "world" is used to mean "every single person". If it so clearly means all men in vs. 16, then is clearly means all men in v. 17 too right?...."17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him." Look at the first part of that verse. Your interpretation of "world" does not fit here. It is not saying, "For God did not send his Son into every single man". No, "world" has a different meaning there. However to remain consistent with what you have been telling me, it must clearly mean that.
You - " I would still like to see a verse though."
Me - When the scriptures talk about belief as it relates to coming to God, they are talking about saving faith, not just having knowledge of His existence or even knowledge that He is God. Satan knows Jesus is God, but he doesn't have saving faith.
You - "God gave all things to Jesus...."And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me."
Me - You can't just ignore the numerous other scripture to post one assuming that it means God will draw each and every man. First of all, "men" is not even in the original. So all of what is He drawing becomes the question.
44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day. 45 It is written in the Prophets, �And they will all be taught by God.� Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to me
Those who are drawn are those who are raise up in the last day. Just as it says Jesus will draw all, it says all will be taught. The question is who are the "all"? They are those who will believe...not all people everywhere.
There is a problem with your interpretation of God giving Jesus all things..."37. Everyone which the Father gives to Me will come to Me....39 that of all which He has given Me from Him I lose nothing but raise it up at the last day." If this is true, then you believe in universalism because everyone that the Father gives will come and will be raised up in the last day.
You - "Yes, I agree. And God gave every man a measure of faith and the will to exercise it."
Me - And so God gave them the faith and also the will. Are you trying to say that some of those men acted against the will God gave them? I'm not understanding that. Ignore those questions because they are irrelevant. A fair reading in context will show that the faith is given to believers, not every man...."12 I appeal to you therefore, brothers, by the mercies of God, to present your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and acceptable to God, which is your spiritual worship...4 For as in one body we have many members, and the members do not all have the same function, 5 so we, though many, are one body in Christ, and individually members one of another." Romans 12:1,4-5
You - "We were all slaves to sin at some point."
Me - Yes, which is why we needed someone to break the chains because we were incapable of doing so as I've shown from numerous verses.
You - "Later in the same chapter, he's asking them to believe. I believe that people can become sheep. Even if they don't believe at some point in their lives, they may later."
Me - I'm not seeing where He was asking people to believe later in the chapter, but it really wouldn't change anything. The gospel call is for men to repent and believe but Jesus it made it clear that there is only a specific group who will. Yes, there are future sheep who are not yet believers. "16 And I have other sheep that are not of this fold. I must bring them also, and they will listen to my voice. So there will be one flock, one shepherd." John 10:16
Oh okay I see you were posting from John 10.
You can't post John 1:12 without showing v.13 which shows that it was not of their will.
"25 correcting his opponents with gentleness. God may perhaps grant them repentance leading to a knowledge of the truth, 26 and they may come to their senses and escape from the snare of the devil, after being captured by him to do his will".....This actually is right in line with what I have been saying.
"As far as Romans 9 goes, it's definitely a difficult chapter to explain for my beliefs, but it's not impossible. And I believe a difficult chapter is not to be held apart as the point that reinterprets the bible"
Nor was it anywhere near the only set of scriptures given supporting my view.
In light of these verses..."22 What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23 in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory� 24 even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles?....�Those who were not my people I will call �my people,�and her who was not beloved I will call �beloved.��26 �And in the very place where it was said to them, �You are not my people,�there they will be called �sons of the living God.��...30 What shall we say, then? That Gentiles who did not pursue righteousness have attained it, that is, a righteousness that is by faith.....8 This means that it is not the children of the flesh who are the children of God, but the children of the promise are counted as offspring."
I'm not sure how you can say that that we are not talking about salvation. Of course there is an implication of God calling for a purpose and for doing works, however that is exactly what He does for every believer.
Read all of chapter 8 to see that the discussion is salvation...here is just a sample..."18 For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worth comparing with the glory that is to be revealed to us. 19 For the creation waits with eager longing for the revealing of the sons of God. 20 For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of him who subjected it, in hope 21 that the creation itself will be set free from its bondage to corruption and obtain the freedom of the glory of the children of God. 22 For we know that the whole creation has been groaning together in the pains of childbirth until now. 23 And not only the creation, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies. 24 For in this hope we were saved. Now hope that is seen is not hope. For who hopes for what he sees? 25 But if we hope for what we do not see, we wait for it with patience.
26 Likewise the Spirit helps us in our weakness. For we do not know what to pray for as we ought, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us with groanings too deep for words. 27 And he who searches hearts knows what is the mind of the Spirit, because[g] the Spirit intercedes for the saints according to the will of God. 28 And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good,[h] for those who are called according to his purpose. 29 For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. 30 And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified."
This article may provide some clarification of my view
Well some time back I received a question from someone online that went like this: I read your article on John 6:35-45 entitled "The Perseverance of the Saints," and I understand the following to be a brief summary of Jesus' words regarding God's Sovereign purpose in election from John 6:35-45: Unless it is granted, no one will come to Christ. All to whom it is granted will come to Christ, and all of these will be raised up to eternal life on the last day. So, this being the case, can you please explain to me the meaning of John 12:32, where Jesus said: "And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself."?
Here is how I answered:
What I will say here may surprise you, but the word "all" has a number of different meanings in the Bible. We tend to assume that when Jesus speaks of drawing "all men" that He is referring to every last person on the planet. Well, that may or may not be true, but it is in the CONTEXT where we find the phrase that tells us if this assumption is correct or misplaced.
Even today we use the words "all" or "every" in many different ways. When a school teacher asks the people in his classroom, "Are we all here?" or "is everyone listening?" we understand he is not talking about every one of the 6 billion plus folk on the planet, but all the students who have signed up for the class. Context determines the proper interpretation or meaning of words. When the word "all" is used, it is used within a context.
In this illustration, the "all" had a context of the school classroom, which did not include "all" the hockey players in Iceland, "all" the dentists in Denmark, or "all" the carpet layers in Atlanta, Georgia. To rip the word "all" out of its setting and say that the teacher was refering to all people everywhere, would be to totally misunderstand and misinterpret how the word was being used. Again, it is context that determines correct interpretation.
I believe you are correct in your understanding of what John 6:35-45 teaches. So how do we understand the nature of the drawing in John 12:32? Who is being drawn?
We find answers to these questions by refusing to be lazy, doing some serious study, and by consciously allowing our traditions to be exposed to the light of Scripture.
So if understanding the context plays such a major role in getting the correct interpretation, exactly what was the context in John 12? Well it is a very different setting than the one we find in John 6. In John 12, Greeks were coming to Jesus and believing in Him.
John 12:20-22 - Now there were some Greeks among those who were going up to worship at the feast; these then came to Philip, who was from Bethsaida of Galilee, and began to ask him, saying, "Sir, we wish to see Jesus." Philip came and told Andrew; Andrew and Philip came and told Jesus.
Dr. James White, in his book the Potter's Freedom (p. 163), describes the background as follows: "John 12 narrates the final events of Jesus' public ministry. After this particular incident, the Lord will go into a period of private ministry to His disciples right before He goes to the cross. The final words of Jesus' public teachings are prompted by the arrival of Greeks who are seeking Jesus. This important turn of events prompts the teaching that follows. Jesus is now being sought by non-Jews, Gentiles. It is when Jesus is informed of this that He says, "The hour has come for the Son of Man to be glorified." This then is the context which leads us to Jesus' words in verse 32:
John 12:27-33 "Now My soul has become troubled; and what shall I say, 'Father, save Me from this hour '? But for this purpose I came to this hour. "Father, glorify Your name." Then a voice came out of heaven: "I have both glorified it, and will glorify it again." So the crowd of people who stood by and heard it were saying that it had thundered; others were saying, "An angel has spoken to Him." Jesus answered and said, "This voice has not come for My sake, but for your sakes. "Now judgment is upon this world; now the ruler of this world will be cast out. "And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself." But He was saying this to indicate the kind of death by which He was to die.
I believe that in its context the "all men" refers to Jews and Gentiles, not to every individual person on earth. Through His work on the cross, Jesus will draw all kinds of men, all kinds of people to Himself, including those from outside of the covenant community of Israel. We must bear in mind that this would have been an extremely radical thought to the Jews who were hearing Him say these words.
But lets look at this issue from another angle by asking the question, "Is it true that everyone on earth is drawn to the cross?" Is that what the Bible really teaches about the cross?
What does the scripture say? It says that the cross is foolishness to Gentiles and a stumbling block to Jews. 1 Corinthians 1:22-24 says, "For indeed Jews ask for signs and Greeks search for wisdom; but we preach Christ crucified, to Jews a stumbling block and to Gentiles foolishness, but to those who are the called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God."
Question: Who views the cross as something other than foolishness or a stumbling block?
Answer: "...those who are the called, both Jews and Gentiles..."
Again, to quote Dr. White: "To whom is Christ the power and wisdom of God? To "the called." What is the preaching of the cross to those who are not called? Something that draws them or repels them? The answer I think is obvious. The cross of Christ is foolishness to the world. These considerations, along with the immediate context of the Gentiles seeking Christ, make it clear that if He is lifted up in crucifixion, He will draw all men, Jews and Gentiles, to Himself. This is exactly the same as saying that He has sheep not of this fold (John 10:16), the Gentiles, who become one body in Christ (Eph. 2:13-16)."
If we assume that God is drawing every single individual on the planet we run into a major problem when we use this interpretation of John 12:32 (out of its context) and to try to understand the drawing in John 6:44 in the light of it. Lets also bear in mind that we would need to demonstrate that the simple word "draw" MUST have the exact same meaning and objects in both contexts - something I don't believe bears out at all. What is the problem? Well, if we do this, we end up with the unbiblical doctrine of universalism (all people will be saved).
Why? Because Jesus said in John 6:44 "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day." The one drawn here is raised up to eternal life. If everyone on the planet is drawn, then all will be saved, which, I am sure you will agree is not a biblical position, for scripture teaches clearly that not everyone will inherit eternal life.
Rather than solving the issue, this interpretation causes severe problems and in fact undermines the truth of the Gospel. I believe we therefore need to discard this assumption, and interpret both passages in their biblical context. The result will be, as I believe I have shown, a consistent revelation of the Sovereign purposes of God in drawing His elect to Himself, for His own purposes, from every tribe, tongue, people and nation.
I understand, and in 9 it is talking about the gentiles being officially "accepted" into salvation, so yes, you can say it is about salvation. The Jews had an issue with that, and Paul is saying that it's not a problem with God. All who are Jews will not be saved even though God had much patience with them, and God can show mercy on the Gentiles if he wants to, as he even said he was going to in the old testament.
