is there ANY evidence of a hierarchy WITHIN the Trinity...
Posted : 23 Jan, 2012 01:01 PM
Within the Scriptures? Seriously, I was just pondering about the wonders of our Lord and it suddenly dawned on me.
The Scriptures really don't show a hierarchy within the Godhead anywhere in the Scriptures of the three essences with the exception of Jesus leaving all of His majesty, honor, authority, and power on the throne to become a man and be subject to the Father. But other than that part of the Scriptures ALL THREE ARE EQUAL in power and authority from one another.
I honestly think that the only ones who separate the "authority" between the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit is mankind because we tend to put a "label" on something in order to make it easier to understand it on our human terms.
What do you think? Is there such a thing as a hierarchy between the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit in the Scriptures? If so, then please present the Scriptures to show it so that we may all learn from it.
By the way, this is purely for discussion purposes and not to bash anyone's knowledge of anything here. So the Phorum Pharisitically minded people please be peaceable or stay out of the topic.
is there ANY evidence of a hierarchy WITHIN the Trinity...
Posted : 25 Jan, 2012 01:15 PM
Angel shared ~ If there is something in your life or Mind upon which God has put His pressure, then Obey Him in that matter. Bring All your Arguments and every thought into Captivity to the Obedience of Jesus Christ regarding the thoughts and everything you do not understand according to His Word in Scriptures. Everything will become as clear as daylight to You if you are humble and Obey Him.
:applause:...
PJ Shared ~ That is the million dollar answer Angel. So the question is will the intellectuals humble themself?
:winksmile:...
*** So now we hava Answer and the Ultimate Question is found in�
Job 9:1~ Then Job answered and said, 2~ I know it is so of a truth: but how should man be just with God?
:prayingm:...:bow:...:prayingf:...
*** :glow:...I believe we [were] discussing the Hierarchy of the Trinity within Scripture�and the Topic has gotten off track here�well its been interesting...a lil fun...and a lil In-Lighting...Thanxs for Awsum discussion brother Sal...and now I will humbly say Adue' to Yall...Be Blessed and Yall hava HolySpirit Filled day...:waving:...xo
is there ANY evidence of a hierarchy WITHIN the Trinity...
Posted : 25 Jan, 2012 02:18 PM
Maybe it is a Post to get the brothers and sisters searching the Word of GOD and sharing the findings with LOVE with each other and not to be Derailing and Arguing as it has turned into...Some people just refuse to "perceive" the Forest through the Complexity of the Trees...:bouncy:...Be Blessed PJ...xo
is there ANY evidence of a hierarchy WITHIN the Trinity...
Posted : 25 Jan, 2012 05:12 PM
WOW! Looks like someone got a little riled up and just a tad bit emotional here. Did someone take ET's phylacteries or something? Well, since ET got upset enough to post a few things because she couldn't come up with something, I guess I can address this and hopefully TRY to get people to DISCUSS THINGS as I'd hoped in the beginning of this topic.
ET says: Agaepton, Your problem is with AUTHORITY,
ME: Nope. Not at all. But you THINK my problem is with authority or else you wouldn't be asking me what my intent was, sister. What is worse is that you don't see your own ignorance in your thoughts yet can point out others. Look t my first few posts. You'll see it was clearly for discussion and who comes in all ready to give a "Holy Ghost beat-down" here? Yup. You guessed it. Your first post was wrong with the definition YOU WANTED TO MEAN for the Godhead and put something FROM YOUR OWN ELLA TOWNSEND MINISTRY WEBSITE.
ET: and its obvious by the things you speak, and your pride and ego refuses to allow you to accept anything anyone says that is more than what you think you know and understanding in God's...
ME: This coming from someone who posted a few verses that plainly showed Jesus' FULL DEITY and EQUALITY with the Father and then used them out of context to prove her view. Right. Gotcha. I still love the John 13:16 one. That was a good'en. Lol
Oh, by the way, Are you a woman pastor or a woman teacher in the church Or did you start your own because you don't accept anything anyone says about women not teaching in the church?
ET: cuz, you like to think of yourself as having spiritual knowledge and insight that you really don't have, and you like being in control when in reality you're not as spiritual minded or informed as you THINK YOU ARE,
ME: OK, this is coming from someone who had a hard time grasping what I was trying to say several times in this topic and made points of no relevance to the subject which shows by what you posted, I guess you would be in a good position to understand then. Man, can you be just a tad on the emotional side of the street and take this topic TOO seriously, or are you that vain to think that you're THE ONLY authority on Spiritual matters or who has been endowed with one?
ET: you speak from your own interpretations of God's word, and of your own mind and thoughts... not godly wisdom of knowing. Time
spent in reading I Corinthians chpaters 1-5 will do
you well.
ME: I see. So, if I read the first five chapters I'd see that:
1. Sects and cliques are bad in Christ. What denomination are you again? I'm in Christ. Yours profile says you're a Baptist and that you're going to Bible school. Which denominational adherence does your school have? Are you studying to be a woman pastor? Does that align with Scripture dear? Who is YOUR PASTOR, dear?
2. A believer in Christ has the mind of Christ and The Spirit that God gave. The Spirit that searches all things and the deep things of God and was given by God freely to Spiritual people who who evaluate everything and are not subject to anyone's evaluation. So, that means I'm doing exactly what 1 Cor. 2 is commending BY LOOKING INTO SPIRITUAL MATTERS, dear sister. Why are you telling me that I don't understand and that i like being in control when you are the one who came in with the wrong idea of what i was saying SEVERAL TIMES and trying to get me to change my mind?
ET: If you're being led by the Holy Spirit in what you
speak thenyou would understand the Father and
Son relationship between God and Jesus and have
insight into what the scripture passages and even
Jesus says
ME: Oh. so now I'm not being led by the Holy Spirit because i noticed something while pondering on the wonders of Christ and you are the discerner of my spirit and thoughts now. K. Gotcha. You are not emotional one bit there.
ET: you would have also known what I
posted on pages I think startng at page two of
this thread about diety and that God is His OWN
divine head of the Trinity, etc... but you have no
clue yet tyou fight against the trth trying to make
your point stand, which goes no where.
ME: I did know what you posted. I proved you wrong by posting the definition contrary to what you wanted it to mean, sister. And as far as the truth goes, you missed it. BAD. You even bother to pay attention to my "Athanasian creed" comment in my second post?? WHERE DO YOU THINK THAT THE ONE YOU HAVE ON YOUR WEBSITE ORIGINATED FROM? EVERY CHURCH WHO BELIEVES THAT IS QUOTING THE ATHANASIAN CREED. The problem is that the CREED YOU UNKNOWINGLY GOT IT FROM STATES THE EXACT OPPOSITE THAT YOU STOOD FOR.
THE ATHANASIAN CREED:
3. That we worship one God in Trinity, and Trinity in Unity; 4. Neither confounding the persons nor dividing the substance.5. For there is one person of the Father, another of the Son, and another of the Holy Spirit.6. But the Godhead of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit is all one, the glory equal, the majesty coeternal.7. Such as the Father is, such is the Son, and such is the Holy Spirit.8. The Father uncreated, the Son uncreated, and the Holy Spirit uncreated.9. The Father incomprehensible, the Son incomprehensible, and the Holy Spirit incomprehensible.
10. The Father eternal, the Son eternal, and the Holy Spirit eternal.11. And yet they are not three eternals but one eternal.
12. As also there are not three uncreated nor three incomprehensible, but one uncreated and one incomprehensible.
13. So likewise the Father is almighty, the Son almighty, and the Holy Spirit almighty.
14. And yet they are not three almighties, but one almighty.
15. So the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God;
16. And yet they are not three Gods, but one God.
17. So likewise the Father is Lord, the Son Lord, and the Holy Spirit Lord;
18. And yet they are not three Lords but one Lord.
19. For like as we are compelled by the Christian verity to acknowledge every Person by himself to be God and Lord;
20. So are we forbidden by the catholic religion to say; There are three Gods or three Lords.
21. The Father is made of none, neither created nor begotten.
22. The Son is of the Father alone; not made nor created, but begotten.
23. The Holy Spirit is of the Father and of the Son; neither made, nor created, nor begotten, but proceeding.
24. So there is one Father, not three Fathers; one Son, not three Sons; one Holy Spirit, not three Holy Spirits.
25. And in this Trinity none is afore or after another; NONE IS GREATER THAN ANOTHER.
26. But the whole three persons are COETERNAL, and COEQUAL.
27. So that in all things, as aforesaid, the Unity in Trinity and the Trinity in Unity is to be worshipped.
28. He therefore that will be saved must thus think of the Trinity.
29. Furthermore it is necessary to everlasting salvation that he also believe rightly the incarnation of our Lord Jesus Christ.
30. For the right faith is that we believe and confess that our Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, is God and man.
31. God of the substance of the Father, begotten before the worlds; and man of substance of His mother, born in the world.
32. Perfect God and perfect man, of a reasonable soul and human flesh subsisting.
33. Equal to the Father as touching His Godhead, and inferior to the Father as touching His manhood.
34. Who, although He is God and man, yet He is not two, but one Christ.
35. One, not by conversion of the Godhead into flesh, but by taking of that manhood into God.
36. One altogether, not by confusion of substance, but by unity of person.
37. For as the reasonable soul and flesh is one man, so God and man is one Christ;
NOW, Since you are in Bible college YOU SHOULD HAVE KNOWN THIS, sister. I mean you are going to get your Spiritual P.H.D. And not once has it dawned on you WHERE YOU GET YOUR CREEDS FROM? What is even sadder is that you don't know WHY you have the creed. The creed you have on your website (which is a small variation of Athanasian's creed) is because of the conflict and HERETICAL TEACHING OF Arius who taught the FATHER's AUTHORITY OVER THE SON and EMPHISIZES THE FATHER'S DIVINITY OVER THE SON thereby making the Son a created thing. That is the whole thrust of why your creed is there and a P. H. D. like you didn't know this? What ARE YOU LEARNING IN THAT SCHOOL? This stuff is pretty common in the basics of the faith. As a matter of fact, THE SAME ARGUMENTS YOU USED WERE THE ONES ARIUS USED. That IS THE SAME ARGUMENT THAT THE JEHOVAH'S WITNESSES USE TODAY to show that Jesus is A god and much lower in divinity and authority than GOD.
ET: you're TRYING TO go with this yopic is as
you stated with Elisha: You said: Now since Jesus
is equal to the Father, then the Spirit, who has
the same authority as Jesus,m is also equal in the
Godhead. Now since Jesus gave us this authority
to emulate to the world of the same community,
then we too, are of the same authority and are
not one greater than each other. With that being
said, we should hold no rank over one or the
other now. We are all kings and priests. No lower
hierarchy there. Equal through and through. So
now if we the Body are the fullness of Him (Eph.
1:23), then we too are to interact JUST LIKE THE
GODHEAD. You agree?
Ella says: You're seeking someone to agree with
your rebellious spirit that we are not to be
subjected to authority, and there is no need for
spiritual leaders. Yet you obey your boss on your
job??...
ME: My question was asking her if she agreed not to agree with me, dear. You are losing it.
Plus my point was pretty much proven no matter what i asked her. yours is still not to be seen.
ET: My question to you, is your son subject to you, or
are you subject to him, or do you both have equal
authority?
ME: You comparing me and my son to God now? How flawed is that? Talk about naturalistic in view. The Jehovah's witnesses use the same thing.
ET: You lack spiirutal udnerstanding into God's work
because you continue to seek and justify a way
around SUBMISSION TO AUTHORITY as to what
God speaks, that He has placed spiritual and
government leaders in power of wuthority over
the church and nation, whcih you reject out of
your hardheadness and rebellion.
ME: I see, sister. So says a woman who reads Scripture and knows that a woman is not to teach and has her own church? How do we know that your website is comprised of just YOU and no one else in there, sister? I mean the fact that you hide who you are and twisted Scripture in your earlier posts shows more rebellion than anything that you accused me of.
This is your site. Correct? I googled your creed and it popped up WORD FOR WORD.
So, sister. You say that our Lord "has empowered you to be a Spirit filled dynamic SPEAKERS and TEACHER in His Word" knowing that Scripture says that a woman shouldn't teach? K. Oh. And you're divorced too? Doesn't Scripture also say that a "RULER" within the body of Christ should be married?
"Evangelist Ella Townsend holds a Bachelor degree in Soical* Work and a Masters degree in Biblical Studies, and will complete her Doctorate of Ministry degree in May, 2012. She is divorced, has two grown sons, and one grandchild."
*by the way, you might want to fix those typos on your page because you look unprofessional.
I don't know if I should listen to the rest of this now since you have a hard time listening to anyone who preaches from the Word of God that doesn't align to your way of thinking, sister.
ET: This is why you question everthing anyones says, and you have
an answer for everything that does not agree with
you no matter what anyone says. YOU DO NOT
LIKE AUTHORITY and you try to find a way to say
that everyone is equal and no one should have
authority over anyone. Even the scritpure
passage you quoted was no correct, God is not
speaking about what you think he is about
lording over another...
God's word stand and you deceive yourself
thinking you have the truth of God's word and
the answers, and youc an't change His word to fit
your cause of rebellion, or what you think it
should be, when you don't even understand what
it is you're speaking in scripture becasue you lean
to your own understanding of scripture and not
revelation from the Holy Spirit otherwise you
would be in agreement with what God's word
says.You are indeed in UNBELIEF otherwise you
would have so many questions and your own
answers when it doesn't agree with what you
think.
ME: Look at the above statement. Then look in the mirror. Then call yourself a hypocrite. Then smile.
Blushing is optional.
ET: You try to put down PJ, and as I've said PJ might
not be able to express what it is he is saying all
the time, but he has more spiritual understanding
of God's word than you and many others on thsi
forum.
ME: Actually, if he preaches another gospel of a spirit instead of a gospel of Jesus and a promise of money and an intelligible language instead of salvation, then yeah. He has a spirit of understanding, alright. Is it Spiritual? That we will let the Lord decide.
God doesn't use smart and wise people who are
wrapped up in their own knowledge about His
word, He uses those who take His word at face
value an belive without doubt and questioning
what He ahs spoken. As God says He uses the
foolish things to confound the wise, and the
spiritual things that the Holy Spirit reveals is
foolishness to those who think theyare wise and
have the know all in matter pretaining to the
things of God.
ME: You are right. So how is it that someone with a PHD doesn't know the simple basics of Christ being uncreated and coequal with the Spirit and God the Father by trying to imply to Jesus' TEMPORAL ministry to justify his subordinate nature? How do you make thins claim knowing that nothing in Scripture indicates that the Father-Son-Spirit are eternally hierarchically ordered in being, work/function, or authority?
Again, HOW is Christ�s functional subjection, which is not an eternal condition but a task-driven, temporary phase of ministry, descriptive of the hierarchy of the Godhead when it is presented in Scripture as a model of servanthood and mutual submission for all believers (Phil 2:5�11)?
How can you, a WELL EDUCATED, PHD'd, WOMAN TEACHER NOT KNOW that historic Christianity has never accepted hierarchical ordering in the Godhead? The Athanasian Creed says "the Son is only inferior to the Father in relation to His manhood; He is equal with the Father in relation to the Godhead." How can you deny that Scripture confirms this in many places? How can you say that Jesus was always obedient when Hebrews says that Jesus �learned obedience��not as the Eternal Son, but in His incarnate state (Heb. 5:8)? How come a BIBLICAL SCHOOLED WOMAN LIKE YOU NOT KNOW THAT THE New Testament never supports a hierarchical structure or chain-of-command relationship in the Godhead? Where doesn't the Godhead show as coequal persons (Matt. 28:18; John 5:18; 10:30; 14:9; Phil. 2:6), sister? How can a well educated and proud woman not know this and me, a lowly, unspiritually mature, unschooled, young man know this by just looking into the Scriptures like the Lord commands us to?
Whose wisdom are you learning, sister? WHAT ARE YOU LEARNING IN THAT SCHOOL EXACTLY THAT YOU DIDN'T SEE THIS BEFORE?
ET: As I've asked you before, what is it that you
spiritually seek,? what is your purpose? and what
is your intent?...
ME: I thought you knew what i was all about, sister? You've stated so much of your opinions so far that i shouldn't bother to answer because you won't take my answers for consideration anyways.
is there ANY evidence of a hierarchy WITHIN the Trinity...
Posted : 25 Jan, 2012 05:33 PM
ET: One more thing, you do well to seek God for a spiritual attitude adjustment, relinement, and tune-up. And to do a check and balance of yourself, because you will find that your are somewhat off course.
ME: I see, sister. I guess i shouldn't got a bit too emotional from a topic and try to zealously "Holy Ghost beat-down" on you cause i couldn't prove my point, huh? You might be right, sister. After all, you know best.
ET: You have something that God can use, if you allow Him to use you according to His will, and not you lean to your own understanding. BUt then again, this involves PERFECT SUBMISSION TO AUTHORITY even so, to the Holy Spirit, and of God's own words, and those teachers He will place over you to guide you. As He has always down throughout the ages inlcuding Paul Timothy Titus and others.
ME: I lean on His authority, sister. I lean on His Word and follow it. By the way, How long have you been teaching the word of God to the assembly? Doesn't Paul tell Tim that women shouldn't do that? After all, What Paul taught Tim and Titus is in the Word. Jesus taught the disciples and they wrote it down too. We got the Word to show us whom and how to submit to Christ. Your thoughts?
ET: Submission to authority is the greatest quality of Jesus character that we are taught.And you're only deceiving yourslef if you think that Jesus is not subject to God otherwise, you have need to explain how is it that it was God who placed Him on His right hand and exalted HIm. If Jesus's wuthority is equal to God's then you should have the answers to everything Jesus has spoken in the gospel about obeying the Father, and what God has said about Jesus being submissive and obedient even unto death. And who gave Jesus the commands to do so?...
ME: Sister, for the 75001th time. Jesus was coequal with God the Father and the Holy Spirit before everything was created. They shared perfectly EVERYTHING. The only time Jesus became obedient was by becoming a man to show us men how to live a life of submission to God the Father while fulfilling what God the Father would do THROUGH HIM (MEANING GOD WAS IN HIM Jn. 10:30; 14:7, 9-11) and thereby LEARNING OBEDIENCE TO HIM BY SUFFERING (Heb. 5:8) and dying on the cross and being raised up to heaven and then finishing up his TEMPORAL WORK WITH THE PEOPLE OF THE EARTH.
I am so surprised you didn't study this at your college.... *inserts a school credentials with a question mark icon here*
is there ANY evidence of a hierarchy WITHIN the Trinity...
Posted : 25 Jan, 2012 05:42 PM
PassedOverInChrist Posted: Genesis 1:1 In the beginning of God's preparing the heavens and the earth--
In the Hebrew language the word for God is ELOHIM,this is the plural of ELOAH.
Had Eloah been used in stead of Elohim,the the Father would reign supreme above Yeshua and the Holy Spirit.
Because Elohim is used in Genesis 1:1,we have the plurality of the Godhead in the creation of al that we can see,and cannot see.
The Father does not need Yeshua or the Holy Spirit in order to being GOD,His being GOD does not depend upon anyone,not even Yeshua, or the holy Spirit.
The same could be said for Yeshua,and the Holy SPirit.
The Holy SPirit does not need the Father,nor Yeshua to being GOD.
Yeshua does not need the Father,nor the Holy Spirit to being GOD.
The Father is not the Son,not the Holy SPirit.
The Son is not the Holy SPirit,nor the Father.
The Holy Spirit is not the Father,nor the SOn.
Yet the Father is GOD.
The Son is GOD.
The Holy SPirit is GOD.
Each person within the Triune Gidhead is is Omnipotent,
Omnipresent,and Omniscient.
ME: AMEN BROTHER! That is the whole thrust of where i was getting at. Jesus was God in the beginning and He was with God. John 1:1 When he became flesh is when he became obedient for our sakes. But before everything was created the Godhead was a perfect "community".
is there ANY evidence of a hierarchy WITHIN the Trinity...
Posted : 25 Jan, 2012 05:50 PM
phillipjohn ME: I agree. That is why I'm trying to point out another truth that man with a sin nature has attempted to "RANK" the God of the Bible by placing "labels" of "authority" WITHIN the Godhead by belittling Christ because He became humble by becoming human and the Body of Christ just accepted it and IS RUNNING WITH THIS IDEA.
PJ: I agree. That is why I'm trying to point out another truth that man with a sin nature has attempted to "RANK" the God of the Bible
If you have a sin nature you are not saved, what next.
ME: Bro, where the heck are you getting this stuff?
Engaging the Word of God with the mind is not spiritual but mental.
ME: OK.
That one needs an interpretation for sure.
1Co 15:24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
ME: we still looking at the work of Christ at the END, bro?
Notice how the Father he will put down ALL rule and AUTHORITY and POWER there? Where do you think that will happen? So will Jesus be part of that and in what way?
Thanks for stopping by, PJ.
Your words again reveal your heart, notice your opinion of interpretation.
All one needs to do is believe the word of God
You believe you gain exalt yourself above God
That is not me.
ME: No bro it's all you. And the fact that you actually never answered the question shows that it was your interpretation that you responded to in a pharisitical phasion. Sad.
is there ANY evidence of a hierarchy WITHIN the Trinity...
Posted : 25 Jan, 2012 05:55 PM
phillipjohn posted: That is the million dollar answer Angel.
ME: I agree. It was nicely said.
So the question is will the intellectuals humble themself?
ME: I don't know, bro. Ask your sister if she will cause she is the Bible Scholar here. I'm just a lowly foolish weak man who preaches Christ and His Word.
is there ANY evidence of a hierarchy WITHIN the Trinity...
Posted : 25 Jan, 2012 06:01 PM
GodsJude shared: ...I believe we [were] discussing the Hierarchy of the Trinity within Scripture�and the Topic has gotten off track here�well its been interesting...a lil fun...and a lil In-Lighting...Thanxs for Awsum discussion brother Sal...and now I will humbly say Adue' to Yall...Be Blessed and Yall hava HolySpirit Filled day......xo
It was fun to know how you see things, sister. I'm glad that you got something out of it. You are very welcome and i hope to have more time with you in Christ and His Word.
May the Lord richly fill your spirit with His and infuse your joy with His. :)
