Ephesians 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places,
4 even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love
5 he predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will,
6 to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved.
7 In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace,
8 which he lavished upon us, in all wisdom and insight
9 making known to us the mystery of his will, according to his purpose, which he set forth in Christ
10 as a plan for the fullness of time, to unite all things in him, things in heaven and things on earth.
11 In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will,
12 so that we who were the first to hope in Christ might be to the praise of his glory.
13 In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit,
14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it,to the praise of his glory.
"It's possible to actually read the bible and then come to this conclusion"
Sure if you ignore many verses and disregard context. I can also teach against the trinity from scripture by the clear teaching that God is one. There are lots of false teachings I can come to from scripture if I don't study it comprehensively.
"As much as the bible talks about belief and faith, I have to acknowledge faith in the context that the bible speaks of it. Saved by grace through faith. Not saved by faith. Saved by grace. Through faith. Faith is not a work. Faith is the opposite of a work."
As shown numerous times, the reason that scripture doesn't consider faith a work is because it considers it to be something that God accomplishes. You consider it to be something you accomplish to gain salvation and therefore it is a work. I asked how you define work as it relates to someone being saved, in another thread and you ignored it. You did so because the question cannot be answered without showing the glaring flaw in your view that faith becomes a work when it is man doing something in order to be saved. You think man chooses God. I explained to you that the difference in you being saved and your neighbor not being saved, in your view is something you have accomplished...not something God has done. Glory goes to you. You gave no answer for this either.
"That verse you presented is no problem to explain through the belief that salvation is offered to all men, and that only the ones that God foreknew would have a true conversion are will be saved."
Except that nowhere does scripture teach this...
""For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men...I choose to believe that the weight of scripture is what determines truth, and what I see in scripture is that faith is something that happens to people before they're saved."
Titus 2 has been explained to you in another thread which you ignored as well. Everything you have no response for, you ignore. Furthermore, this idea that you choose to believe the weight of scripture....Even though I gave numerous scriptures to the contrary, you like you hang your hat on versus like this which don't as all say that God gives everyone a choice.
Romans 10:9 in no way refutes the reformed view.
Galatians 3:22 in no way refutes the reformed view.
It has been explained to you that just because scripture teaches salvation comes to those who believe, that does not account for why people believe...the heart of the issue. I've given plenty of proof over these threads to show that God is the reason and not man.
Why does the parable of the sower refute the reformed view? You still haven't explained this clearly.
You are reaching to say that because Jesus taught in parables, men clearly have free will. You've never answered the scriptures teaching that man doesn't.
Well, then under your beliefs I guess it will be up to God to bring me understanding then. I believe He's the one that brought me here, I hope he takes me the rest of the way.
True, but you simplify it too much. He also brings men to teach His truths. That is evident throughout scripture. According to your view, you'll bring yourself to it!
There is no vanity in arguing for the sovereignty of God. There is no vanity in arguing that God gets all the glory for salvation because it was all accomplished by Him. There is no vanity in arguing about whether we understand salvation correctly in light of the scriptures. Many times in the past you have shown that you do not care what the scriptures teach, but would rather pull little secret nuggets out that you claim you've gained because God whispered to you and you completely ignore the what the verses actually say. If it's all vanity then why do you continue arguing in these threads?
"But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them; And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus."
"Here's the question I have for you Arminians: If a sovereign, loving, all-powerful, all-knowing God, who neither ordains nor causes bad things to happen but allows them to happen according to his permissive will, creates mankind with the foreknowledge that every human will fall into sin, then how could such a God escape responsibility for the pain and suffering of his creatures, much less the eternal damnation of those who don't respond to his free offer of salvation?
I submit that you cannot answer that question without abandoning your own Arminian worldview. You cannot answer it without resorting to the same theological gymnastics you accuse Calvinists of performing. And you certainly cannot answer it if you have a problem conceiving of a truly sovereign God who works all things for his ultimate glory."
That is very easy actually, but I'm not an Arminian, and I do believe God ordains things, including free will. God created us with free will. He doesn't want slaves/puppets/robots. He knew we would sin, and that is why Jesus was ordained to be "slain from the foundation of the world". God created Satan knowing he would sin. Why? Free will. God doesn't want slaves. What kind of husband values the love of a wife that has no choice but to love him? What kind of parent values the forced love of a child? It's absolutely worthless. True love is absolutely priceless. God wants us to love him in a higher way than even a spouse loves his/her significant other, or a child loves a parent. And how does a husband/wife/parent become someone that a person can love? By being someone worthy of love. God has always been someone worthy of love. He has always been the loving father and the faithful husband. That knowledge discovered in the bible and God's movements and influence to bring the truth to the whole world are how we learn about God. We see God's love and faithfulness and justice and mercy and grace and righteousness and wisdom(I could go on) and all we do is simply acknowledge that God is indeed all of those things. I believe that knowledge inspires faith and love for Him, and then God changes our hearts to desire to follow Him and bear fruit. Those that choose not to believe in who God is, will not be forced, just like a prospective spouse or a prodigal son cannot be forced. God knew that Cain would kill Abel, and He didn't stop him. Does that mean God is responsible? Especially since God even took the time to warn Cain? No, and He is a good God. Was the father responsible for the sins of the prodigal son? No, and He is a good father. Was God responsible for the many failings of Israel? No, and He is a faithful husband. Israel is the perfect example. God never stopped them from backsliding. He warned them and withdrew his protection and even actively punished them, but he never forced them. He let them do as they chose.
"O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!"
He did not want their love just because He said they should love him. That's a selfish, manipulative, controlling, egotistical obsession. I would say that if God ordained Satan to become the father of lies, or Cain to kill Abel, or Israel to fall so much, or removed the will of Pharaoh, and nothing falls outside of his sovereignty...that actually makes God an accessory to sin, if not the literal source and creator of sin. But we all know who that actually is, and it's Satan's highest purpose to misrepresent the character of God so that we should believe a lie. I know very well what people's accusations are against God, and most of them stem from what I consider wrong views of God's character that are held by His very own children.
And I'd like to comment on your story, because I think it really didn't consider the entirety of the condition we're in and I think you took it too far in portraying a "loving" father that would be so passive in his efforts of raising a child(Even though the prodigal son parable kind of portrays that picture, the father even gave the son inheritance to waste, but it also doesn't go into every detail). God isn't that passive, because "passive" isn't love. Love is action. Being a truly loving father includes rebuke and chastening and even punishment. The analogy fails apart there, because the father would have done much more to correct his son, and also much more to rescue him. I'm also not sure what the water was supposed to represent. The boy would not have been screaming for help if it was supposed to be "sin", under your beliefs or mine, because no natural sin-seeking man seeks God of his own volition. Basically, God is just much more active. Maybe you're just talking specifically to "Arminians", and since I'm not one, it's hard to understand.
I would also like to talk about the converse picture and how society would view that kind of father also. How would society react to a man that brainwashes his son so that he can only obey his father? I'm sure someone will say that it's a blessing to be brainwashed by God, but that's kind of a "the ends justify the means" type deal.
Here's an analogy of Calvinism.
A sovereign king("god") has the only cure(Salvation) for a terminal disease(sin) that he inflicted on the population of his country(Humanity) by a planted and controlled traitor(Satan). Everyone is equally infected, big/tall/small/great/etc, and needs the cure, but He only picks a few of his people heal of the disease, even though they all hate him and his government and would never ask him for help. He brainwashes those few so that they only want to serve him, gives them the cure, and then destroys the rest of his people because it will build his reputation and bring his rule more glory throughout the world.
You can give that king the best motives and results in the world, but he still sounds more like Saddam Hussein than God to me.
Again, there is your problem. You have an idea of who you desire God to be and therefore cannot read scripture without your presuppositions. You think He cannot be anything to the contrary of who you want Him to be.
