The implication is by some that salvation is by being drawn by the Holy Ghost, and only those that are drawn can be saved.
PhillipJohn,
YOU are of course one of those people who deny point blank statements by Jesus.
In John 6 Jesus says TWICE..."No man can come to me unless..."
And you turn right around and say "No anyone can come".
SHOW ME how any verse I offered is out of context.
You accuse me of it, and then you don't give any examples of it.
I just gave an example where YOU contradict Scripture.
Jesus says in John 6 that NO ONE CAN come to Him unless the father draws them, and YOU say that anyone can come!
I can give examples of you contradicting the bible over and over!
You offer nothing but accusations, with no evidence.
In Christ,
James
phillipjohn
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sovereign grace vs free-will
Posted : 4 Aug, 2011 11:13 PM
James I will gladly rightly divide all those scriptures you manipulate, and quote out of context, you forgot to acknowledge the bible example I posted for you. Jesus breathed it as he did all scripture.
Don't forget Enoch!! Actually the bible records many people doing exactly what you said they cannot do.
Just a friendly reminder the Holy Spirit was not on the earth as he is today, to work in the lives of sinners.
So by you no one of the old testament saints can be saved.
2 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Moses gave you not that bread from heaven; but my Father giveth you the true bread from heaven.
33 For the bread of God is he which cometh down from heaven, and giveth life unto the world.
34 Then said they unto him, Lord, evermore give us this bread.
35 And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.
36 But I said unto you, That ye also have seen me, and believe not.
37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.
39 And this is the Father�s will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
41 The Jews then murmured at him, because he said, I am the bread which came down from heaven.
42 And they said, Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? how is it then that he saith, I came down from heaven?
43 Jesus therefore answered and said unto them, Murmur not among yourselves.
44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.
In context with all the scriptures James, why is it you leave out verse 45, of course 45 does not fit in reformation theology, because they say man can not do what the bible says for him to do, even though we have example after example of men and women doing just that.
James you may stir up people in the flesh with your statements and especially how you continually say there is no scriptural evidence to anything I say, but when scripture is presented you clearly deny it.
All men are required to believe it is not as with your own will you choose to interpret. It is with subjecting your will to the word of god and then believing every scripture in context.
PJ, you and James remind me of the Hatfields and McCoys:ROFL: you guys have been at it :boxing:for about two or three years?... and still haven't settle not one matter:ROFL:
(NIV)John 6:43 �Stop grumbling among yourselves,� Jesus answered.
44 �No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me
draws them,
and I will raise them up at the last day.
45 It is written in the Prophets: �They will all be taught by God.�[d] Everyone who has heard the Father and learned from him comes to me. 46 No one has seen the Father except the one who is from God; only he has seen the Father. 47 Very truly I tell you, the one who believes has eternal life. 48 I am the bread of life. 49 Your ancestors ate the manna in the wilderness, yet they died. 50 But here is the bread that comes down from heaven, which anyone may eat and not die.
51 I am the living bread that came down from heaven. Whoever eats this bread will live forever. This bread is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.�
52 Then the Jews began to argue sharply among themselves, �How can this man give us his flesh to eat?�
53 Jesus said to them, �Very truly I tell you,
��unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you.�
54 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.
�55 For my flesh is
Real Food
and my Blood is Real Drink.
56 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me, and I in them.�
57 Just as the living Father sent me and I live because of the Father, so the one who feeds on me will live because of me. 58 This is the bread that came down from heaven. Your ancestors ate manna and died, but
whoever feeds on this bread will live forever.�
59 He said this while teaching in the synagogue in Capernaum.
Many Disciples Desert Jesus
60 On hearing it, many of his disciples said, �This is a hard teaching. Who can accept it?�
61 Aware that his disciples were grumbling about this, Jesus said to them, �Does this offend you? 62 Then what if you see the Son of Man ascend to where he was before! 63 The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken to you�they are full of the Spirit[e] and life. 64 Yet there are some of you who do not believe.� For Jesus had known from the beginning which of them did not believe and who would betray him. 65 He went on to say, �This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father has enabled them.�
66 From this time many of his disciples TURNED BACK and no longer FOLLOWED HIM.
Let me Repeat this
TURNED BACK and no Longer FOLLOWED HIM.
Jesus KNEW which ones would Leave Him. He Knew which ones would not Want to Believe Him and Leave Him to go their Own Way and Believe what they chose to Believe.
It seems that there might be some Truth in God Drawing people towards Christ. Those people Left Christ because they did not Believe Him when He said that His Flesh would be Eaten and that His Blood would be drunk.
How can this be Possible!! They were not cannibals! They denied that God could do Anything He pleases�Anything He Chooses to do. Their Stubbornness was Fatal to them.
Yes�I Believe that God does Draw people to Christ, but it is up to these people to Believe and Obey and Follow. Otherwise�?
Don't forget Enoch!! Actually the bible records many people doing exactly what you said they cannot do.
James replies:
WRONG. Jesus said that NO MAN CAN UNLESS the Father draws them.
So, according to Jesus, ANYONE you see in the Bible repenting and having faith, have been drawn by the father.
You titled this thread "Salvation by drawing?"
But the truth is salvation is by the GRACE OF GOD.
Not you and your supposed decision!
Ephesians 2: 8,9 says that we" have saved by GRACE, and that NOT OF OURSELVES, so that no one can boast."
That contradicts your supposed free will decision doesn't it.
God decided who He was going to save before the world was made, and HE is NOT BOUND by your imagined "free will"
How many times have you read Scriptures like the following PhillipJohn:
Joh 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
Got that? THE FATHER decides WHO will come to Jesus.
Act 13:48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.
WHO believed? those who were ORDAINED TO ETERNAL LIFE.
NOT people with some imaginary free will who made a decision.
"as many as were ordained to eternal life believed."
FALLEN mankind has a will enslaved to SIN!!
1Co 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
Natural man does NOT HAVE THE ABILITY to repent and trust in Jesus.
Okay PhillipJohn according to the verse below HOW MANY people seek for God?
Rom 3:10-11 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
HOW MANY? NOT ONE! Don't you think that if man had free will, that at least SOME would seek God????
Adam and Eve had free will, and it was lost when they ate of the Fruit.
2Ti 2:25-26 In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth; And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.
Anytime the Bible speaks of will, it is God's will, or Satan's will, but NEVER is mans will mentioned except to say it is NOT by mans will!
Romans 9 says this SPECIFICALLY:
"I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion." 16So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy.
