Thread: Were Books added or subtracted from The Bible?
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Were Books added or subtracted from The Bible?
Posted : 17 Aug, 2011 05:18 PM
Since James Broached the Subject of Books being ADDED by The Catholic Church
Let�s discuss it.
The Catholic Church received (accepted) the Septuagint version of the Hebrew Scriptures (from the Jews) at the Time of Christ. This became known as the Old Testament.
70 years later, the Jews removed 7 Old Testament books from the Septuagint. The reason given for this was that they could no longer find those books in Hebrew, but more likely it was because some of these books were being used to good advantage to make converts among the Jews. For example:
This passage Prophesies and Describes the Attitude of the enemies of Jesus hundreds of years before His birth:
The Book of Wisdom
2.1a, 12-22
�The wicked said among themselves, thinking not aright:
Let us beset the just one, because he is obnoxious to us; he sets himself against our doings, Reproaches us for
transgressions of the law
and charges us with violations of our training. He professes to have knowledge of God and styles himself as a
Child of the Lord.
To us he is the censure of our thoughts; merely to see him is a hardship for us, Because his life is not like other men�s and different are his ways. He judges us debased; he holds aloof from our paths as from things impure. He calls blest the destiny of the just and boasts that
God is his Father.
Let us see whether his words be true; let us find out what will happen to him. For if
The Just One be the son of God
he will defend him and deliver him from the hand of his foes. With revilement and torture let us put him to the test that we may have proof of his gentleness and try his patience. Let us
condemn him to a shameful death;
for according to his own words, God will take care of him. These were their thoughts, but they erred, for their wickedness blinded them, and they knew not the hidden counsels of God neither did they count on a recompense of holiness nor discern the innocent souls� reward.�
This was in The Septuagint (Old Testament) which Christ Quoted from. Many of you do not have this in your Bible.
As for Prayers for The Dead:
Prayers for the dead and support for Purgatory (since people in Heaven don�t need prayers and people in Hell can�t be helped by prayers) are Scriptural based on the following passage.
II Maccabees 12:44-45
For if he were not expecting that those who had fallen would rise again, it would have been superfluous and foolish to pray for the dead.
But if he was looking to the splendid reward that is laid up for those who fall asleep in godliness, it was a holy and pious thought. Therefore he made atonement for the dead, that they might be delivered from their sin.
In 1529, Martin Luther REMOVED the same 7 books from
The Catholic Old Testament, that the Jews had
removed 1400 years earlier.
Luther also RENOVED 4 New Testament books
(Hebrews, James, Jude, and Revelation)
that did not agree with his theology, for his German translation. These books were removed from their original place in the order of the books and placed together at the end of the Bible. In later editions, he
was PERSUADED to return the New Testament books to to their
PROPER POSITION in his translation of the Bible.
Today Protestant Bibles don�t contain 7 Old Testament books at all.
No Amount of WordSpinning or Sleight of Hand or �MisDirection� or �wishful thinking� can change these Truths! But I expect that some will try.
No Amount of WordSpinning or Sleight of Hand or �MisDirection� or �wishful thinking� can change these Truths! But I expect that some will try.
James replies:
What you are accusing people of, you just did yourself!
You said that "the books were in the Bible" and we are talking about The CANON of Scripture.
THOSE ARE TWO DIFFERENT THINGS. The apocrypha was in the middle section of PROTESTANT Bibles during the Reformation, but they specifically said that they were valuable to read, but NOT The Word of God.
Here is your tricky wording Arch:
"But what is Important is that Thes Books were REMOVED from The Septuagint and The Catholic Church simply RESTORED them."
So you are misleading others by merely saying "there were in the Bible." Yes, they were "in the bible" but they were NEVER PART of the Word of God, UNTIL Luther confronted the Pope with the FACT that purgatory was not in Scripture, and THEN the Pope SUDDENLY said, "The apocrypha is now part of the Word of God."
The Canon was SET for 1,300 YEARS, UNTIL the Pope was confronted by Luther, and then the Roman Catholic theologians were sent scurrying off to find some bit of support for Purgatory, and they could ONLY find one excuse in Maccabees.
Arch said:
"Over many yaers and Councils The Catholic Church finally SEALED The Canon of The New Testament."
James replies:
That is a lie! I can produce quotes by the Early church fathers, concerning the Canon of Scripture that were written before Constantine was even born.
The Roman Catholic church merely pronounced something that All Christians had already decided upon.
The FACT is, Arch, that Christians existed and flourished for 300 years BEFORE Constantine was even born, and THEY DECIDED what the Canon was, and that stood for 1,300 years, until a POPE was confronted by LUTHER on the fantasy of purgatory.
The POPE suddenly declared the apocrypha to be included in the Canon, and it did no good. The Reformation happened and Light broke in on the darkness that was and is Rome.
I think you need to have your �battery� charged. Your rebuttal makes no sense.
The Septuagint had those books in it. The Jews decided to take them out because
�A Hebrew Version could not be found.�
But, the most likely reason was because these Books were being used to Convert Jews!
When Constantine Declared Christianity The Religion of The Empire and Demanded that the Confusion of so many Books and Letters be Ended and Canonized �Once and for All��he had Jewish Rabbi as consultants � they objected to these books being �Authentic� and considered them Apocrypha.
There were many attempts by many Catholic Bishops and Priests and Theologians to determine a Canon and in some Churches they did use their own Canon. It took (If I remember correctly) 3 Councils and over 40 years to Finally come to an Agreed Canon.
Also when the Dead Sea Scrolls were translated from the Hebrew�these very Same Books were FOUND�Validating The Catholic Church.
I�ll leave you with your own words James:
��The FACT is, Arch, that Christians existed and flourished for 300 years BEFORE Constantine was even born, and THEY DECIDED what the Canon was, and that stood for 1,300 years, until a POPE was confronted by LUTHER on the fantasy of purgatory.� (end quote)
James, where are you getting your Church History? There were several �canons� floating around�used by different Churches � for instance �The Apocalypse of Peter� was considered �Inspired by God� and it was being read at Mass in some Churches.
This had to be stopped and that is just what The Church did.
(your words)
�The POPE suddenly declared the apocrypha to be included in the Canon, and it did no good. The Reformation happened and Light broke in on the darkness that was and is Rome�(end quote)
Again James�this is Not True! Those Books were in The Septuagint�which the Jews REMOVED and The Catholic Church RETURNED to their Rightful Place. This is The Old Testament (complete�as Validated by The Dead Sea Scrolls).
This Thread is simply about whether those 7 books were in THe Septuagint to begin with and then Removed by Jews and then Returned by The Catholic Church.
