In the Westminster Confession, the doctrine of Total Depravity is stated as follows:
"Man, by his fall into a state of sin, hath wholly lost all ability of will to any spiritual good accompanying salvation; so as a natural man, being altogether averse from good, and dead in sin, is not able, by his own strength, to convert himself, or to prepare himself thereunto." (Westminster Confession Chapter IX, Section III.)
This is the Calvinist Version of Original Sin�in the words of Boettner:
"�to become sinful, men do not wait until the age of accountable actions arrive. Rather, they are apostates from the womb."
Of "The Five Points of Calvinism."
(1) Total Depravity (2) Unconditional Election (3) Limited Atonement
(4) Irresistible Grace (5) The Perseverance Of The Saints �
�Total Depravity� is the Foundation of Calvinism. Without it the other �Points� Collapse.
It is Essential to Note that Calvinism does not have as its
starting point the fact that
�all mankind sinned in Adam."
Calvinism starts with
the Eternal Decree, which the Westminster Confession explains thus:
"God from all eternity did by the most wise and holy counsel of His own will, freely and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass." (Quoted in Boettner, op. cit., page 13)
7 In other words, the essence of Calvinism is its doctrine of
PREDESTINATION.
Calvin writes in Institutes: "Predestination we call the Eternal Decree of God, by which He has determined in Himself, what He would have to become
of every individual of mankind.
For they are not all created with a similar destiny; but eternal life is
foreordained for some and
eternal death for others.
Every man, therefore, being created for one or the other of these ends, we say is predestined either to life or to death." (Institutes, Book III, Chapter XXI, Section 5)
Loraine Boettner writing about Man�s Total Depravity writes:
"Fallen man...lacks the power of spiritual discernment. His reason or understanding is blinded, and the taste and feelings are perverted." (Boettner, op. cit., page 64)
Denying that man has Free Will, and affirming that he cannot, without having been predestined by God, choose to do good or evil, Loraine Boettner went on to say:
"Hence we deny the existence in man of a power which may act either way, on the logical ground that both virtue and vice cannot come out of a moral condition of the agent... He is incapable of understanding, and much less of doing, the things of God." (Boettner, op. cit., page 65,67)
The argument is that UnRegenerate man is "dead in sin," and like anyone who is physically dead is unable to perform anything physical, the spiritually dead man is completely unable to perform anything spiritually.
Yes, the Bible teaches that before we are regenerated, born again, raised, or made alive, we are "dead in trespasses and sins."
Ephesians 2:1
New International Version (NIV)
Ephesians 2
Made Alive in Christ
1 �As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins,��
But the Bible just as clearly teaches that the unregenerate man can indeed
"obey from the heart" the form of doctrine that he has been taught, that is, the gospel.
Romans 6:17
New International Version (NIV)
17 But thanks be to God that, though you used to be slaves to sin, you have come to obey from your heart the pattern of teaching that has now claimed your allegiance.
St. Paul in Colossians 2:12-13, said it another way:
"Buried with Him in baptism, in which you also were raised with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead. And you, being DEAD in your trespasses and the UNCIRCUMCISION of your flesh, He has made alive together with Him, having forgiven you all trespasses."
Faith, of course, comes by hearing the gospel.
Romans 10:17
New International Version (NIV)
17 Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word about Christ.
Then having heard the gospel, one must believe it,
Mark 16:16
New International Version (NIV)
16 Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.
repent of his sins,
Acts 17:30
New International Version (NIV)
30 In the past God overlooked such ignorance, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent.
and confess with his mouth that he believes Jesus is Christ.
Romans 10:10
New International Version (NIV)
10 For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved.
But in doing all this, one has done that which the Calvinists teach an unregenerate man CANNOT DO!.
I Must REPEAT That:
In doing all this, one has done that which the Calvinists teach an unregenerate man CANNOT DO!.
Thus the Calvinist must (has got to) Believe that Baptism is Symbolic and Does Not REGENERATE (removes Sin) and thusly SAVES.
That baptism is clearly under discussion in Colossians 2:12-13 cannot be denied. That this passage teaches that one is not "raised" (verse 12) or "made alive" (verse 13) until he has submitted to baptism also cannot be denied. That the expressions "raised" and "made alive" refer to being regenerated should be just as clear.
In fact, there seems little doubt that the "washing of regeneration" mentioned in Titus 3:5 is referring to baptism. The fact that one could be doing something "through faith," as Colossians 2:12 clearly teaches, before being regenerated flies in the face of Calvinist claims. This, no doubt, is why
Calvinists deny that water baptism has anything to do with being regenerated or born again.
I�ve gone way too Long already here�but this should give you a Beginning as to Why Calvinism is Wrong and DANGEROUS.
When everyone is through �Hollering� and �Screamimg��I�ll post Refutations on the other �Pillars of Calvinisms� (although when this one Falls�)
ARCH said: St. Paul in Colossians 2:12-13, said it another way: "Buried with Him in baptism, in which you also were raised with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead. And you, being DEAD in your trespasses and the UNCIRCUMCISION of your flesh, He has made alive together with Him, having forgiven you all trespasses."
Ella say: It is so very very important to READ with understanding what God is saying in His word, and not try to put words into His mouth with your theplogoy or denominational doctrine. This ain't abut Calvin becasue Calvin never died on the ross for nobody@! This is what God speaks.
Again, when you try to interpret God's word this is when and why there are so many misleading teachings and man made doctrines. Understandign God's word takes spiritual insight not carnal understanding of what you THINK it says.
So ARCH what is this passage in Colossians chapter 2: saying starting at verse 11-15?: In him you were also circumcised with a circumcision not performed by human hands. Your whole self ruled by the flesh was put off when you were circumcised by Christ, having been buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through your faith in the working of God, who raised him from the dead. When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made you alive with Christ. He forgave us all our sins, having canceled the charge of our legal indebtedness, which stood against us and condemned us; he has taken it away, nailing it to the cross. And having disarmed the powers and authorities, he made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them by the cross.
This passage IS NOT SPEAKING ABOUT WATER BAPTISM, IT IS SPEAKING ABOUT SPIRITUAL BAPTISM BY THE HOLY SPIRIT!
I don't mean to be rude, But As I said, if you dont have the time to sit and read Gods word in content and context, PLEASE stop trying to be a spiritual expert because you are not speaking what God is saying in His word of truth... you are STILL trying to make His word say what YOU would like for it to say to support your denominational teachings and doctrine and theology... but sorry, it ain't happening.
God's word is truth your theology and what you speak is your interpretation and is all worng.
May God open you r eyes of understanding into the truth of His word...
12 having been buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through your faith in the working of God, who raised him from the dead.
13 When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made you[c] alive with Christ. He forgave us all our sins,
is there to show that Scripture tells us that even though we are "dead in trespasses and sins." Scripture also tells us (just as clearly) that the unregenerate man can indeed
"obey from the heart" the form of doctrine that he has been taught, that is, the gospel.
Romans 6:17
New International Version (NIV)
17 But thanks be to God that, though you used to be slaves to sin, you have come to obey from your heart the pattern of teaching that has now claimed your allegiance.
I am sorry that you do not believe that Baptism "Regenerates" us...but the Point of this thread is Refuting Predestination and Total Depravity and that Man has NO FREE WILL.
Arch,m, as I've tried diligently to explain to you, the Bible speaks and teaches about TWO (2) BAPTISMS... One is Spiritual Baptism by the works of the Holy Sprit which is what happened on the day of Pentacost and what happens when we are BORN AGAIN REGENERATED, FILLED with the Holy Spirit is is our NEW BIRTH IN CHRIST>
The SECOND BAPTISM is WATER BAPTISM, which is symbolic of our death to sins, burial and resurrection by water in Christ... His death, burial, and resurrection.
Colossian is speakign about our spiritual baptism in Christ when we became BORN AGAIN thorugh the pwoer of the Holy Spirit, God circumcised our hearts removed our old nsinful nature and gave us His new nature in Chirst, a new spiritual life ins Christ. He took away our sins when we received Christ into our life this is about being buried with Christ spiritually which brings us into a spiritual relationship with Christ, God raise us up out of our sins of the old nature, and places us in His righteousness in right standing with Him by giving us new spiritual life. when we are baptized (filled) with the Holy Spriit.
READ THE WHOLE CHAPTER AND NOT JUST THE FEW VERSES THAT YOU TRY TO USE TO SUPPORT YOUR THEOLOGY, BECAUSE YOU AIN'T GETTING IT! There are TWO BAPTISMS, ONE IS SPIRITUAL which is the regenration of the Holy Spiriit and the SECOND ONE IS WATER BAPTISM, which is the washing in the physcial of ur sins symbolic of Christ's death, burial and resurrection
New King James - Titus chapter 3:1-8. Remind them to be subject to rulers and authorities, to obey, to be ready for every good work, to speak evil of no one, to be peaceable, gentle, showing all humility to all men. For we ourselves were also once foolish, disobedient, deceived, serving various lusts and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful and hating one another. But when the kindness and the love of God our Savior toward man appeared, not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit, whom He poured out on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior, that having been justified by His grace we should become heirs according to the hope of eternal life.This is a faithful saying, and these things I want you to affirm constantly, that those who have believed in God should be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable to men. to new life.
New International Version - Titus chapter 3:1-8. Remind the people to be subject to rulers and authorities, to be obedient, to be ready to do whatever is good,to slander no one, to be peaceable and considerate, and always to be gentle toward everyone. At one time we too were foolish, disobedient, deceived and enslaved by all kinds of passions and pleasures. We lived in malice and envy, being hated and hating one another.But when the kindness and love of God our Savior appeared, he saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit, whom he poured out on us generously through Jesus Christ our Savior,so that, having been justified by his grace, we might become heirs having the hope of eternal life.This is a trustworthy saying. And I want you to stress these things, so that those who have trusted in God may be careful to devote themselves to doing what is good. These things are excellent and profitable for everyone.
As God has already said thorugh Paul in Corinthians which I posted for you, to understand God's word in soundness in order to rightly divide or explain or know what God us saying, is to receive this understanding from the Holy Spirit. Therefore, you should pray to the Father in heaven that you be filled with the power of the Holy Spirit, so that you may spiritually understand and come into the knowledge of God's word through revelation given by the Holy Spirit.
There is no confuse in the word of God if the Holy Spriit is leading you into understanding and revealtion.
:laugh:BTW, MAN HAS NO FREE WILL... INFACT MAN HAS NO FREE NOTHING!
If man had free will man would be equal to God. But God has given man free choice to make his own decisions,, but still God has he last word according to His perfect will, His perfect plans, and his perfect purpose for man. Now this is Bibles.. and what God has to say about man having free will,, no such thing... man MAY THINK he has free will, but man doesn't even have free will to go to the bathroom on his own, if God decided not to allow it.
Ask Jonah and Pharaoh, and many others who thought they had free will to do their own thing, and God couldn't stop them...
Anyone who THINKS he/she has free will, is about half crazy or higher in self deceit as a flyingsqurral flying from tree to tree high on drugs. Whoever THINKS he/she has free will is in rebellion to God and does not believe in the severign power of God!... plain and simple!
God can stop and jump start man anytime he feels like it, and there is not one thing man can do about it whether man likes it or not. A free will person answers to no one by him/herself... so that prove this theory is a BIG LIE, because man answers to God whether he/she likes it or not, whether its willingly or unwillingly... God allows us to rebellion and then turns and beat the fool out of us... so if God had given man free will why would man be punished by God for something He gave man?... the thought of man having free will is a lying spirit of satan deceving those who believe such foolishness.. PERIOD!!!... drinking the Jim Jones cool-aid have a drink on the house :Mug::laugh:
John 3: verse 5. Except a person is born of water (this is water baptism) Of water and of the Spirit *this is spiritual baptism). Water is emblematical of the public profession of repentance, and the Spirit is the agent that produces the inward change. The meaning, therefore, is, that an entire change in the spiritual condition of the soul must be openly avowed and truly experienced, to fit the sinner for the kingdom of heaven.
Luke chapter 3:15 The people were waiting expectantly and were all wondering in their hearts if John might possibly be the Messiah. 16 John answered them all, �I baptize you with water. But one who is more powerful than I will come, the straps of whose sandals I am not worthy to untie. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire. 17 His winnowing fork is in his hand to clear his threshing floor and to gather the wheat into his barn, but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.�
Acts chapter 2:36 �Therefore let all Israel be assured of this: God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Messiah.� When the people heard this, they were cut to the heart and said to Peter and the other apostles, �Brothers, what shall we do?� Peter replied, �Repent and be baptized (water baptism), every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit (spiritual baptims) . The promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off�for all whom the Lord our God will call.�
One Lord and one baptism that is spiritually of, and by the Holy Spirit. Again, water baptism is command of Jesus which is a public witness that a person has been chnaged , symbolic of death to sin, buried, washed and cleansed and resurrected.
John chapter 3:5. Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. Jesus does not reply directly to the question of Nicodemus, but proceeds to give a more explicit statement concerning the new birth. One must be born of water and of the Spirit. Whatever this may mean, it will be admitted by all (1) that no one is a member of the kingdom of God until he is born again; (2) that the Savior declares the impossibility of one entering who is not born of water and of the Spirit. All agree that the birth of the Spirit refers to the inward, or spiritual change that takes place, and all candid authorities agree that born of water refers to baptism. People's New Testament.
Sorry, Arch, but I can only speak to you about the spiritual things that God has spoken in HIS WORD, and not the foolishness of man... rightly dividing the word of God's truth is what it is, nothing more and nothing less, and God's word is nto based on what man thinks or has said. You can believe what you may, and your interpretation of God's word is not by revelation in agreement with scripture, only with what your theology of what man has said... man always tries to make God's word say what it doesn't says. Spiritual Discernment ois the key to understanding the word of God, and it speaks clearly throughout the Gospels, the Book of Acts and in Paul's writings,... connecting the dots...
My Point is that those that had the opportunity to ASK Jesus to Clarify any point of Scripture�did so and They Believed (rightly so) that Baptism REGENERATES! They Believed that there is Only One Baptism!
Yes�it is The Holy Spirit that Regenerates you in Baptism. Of Course water is just water�just as the �Laying on of Hands� is just �placing ones hands� on someone�but The Holy Spirit MOVES through those �Hands�.
Ella,
(you write) ��Peter replied, �Repent and be baptized (water baptism), every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit�� (spiritual baptims). (end)
To begin with�there are no Parentheses in that Scripture. It reads:
��Peter replied, �Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit���
�Be Baptist and you will Receive the Gift of The Holy Spirit�
Why do you insist on breaking it down into Two parts and calling them Two Baptisms?
One Baptism�In The Name of The Father and of The Son and of The Holy Spirit!
It is Not One Baptism with water (Symbolic) and then ANOTHER BAPTISM with The Holy Spirit (Actual).
NO TIME IN THE HISTORY OF CHRISTIANITY HAS THAT BEEN (EVER) BELIEVED!
The only Reason it is believed now is Because Calvinists Have to Believe this in Order for their New Gospel to work!!!
I can Understand it if you were a Calvinist�but I don�t think you are�are you?
My Belief has Nothing to do with what Man Thinks. It has Everything to do with what Scripture Says and with what CHRIST Taught His Apostles and with what CHRIST GAVE HIS BRIDE (The Church).
Ella,
You have to use Parentheses to Explain Scripture. You cannot allow Scripture to Speak for itself!
